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CA - We know you have time to make this right. Belakor and DoC.

2

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  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764
    Reeks said:

    Yeah because having some of the main races in the setting being outright removed is perfectly comparable to a armybook having it´s content split up into pieces yet still being present...

    Yeah, it is. Would Host of the Eternity King army count as High Elves?

    Dude, you have Daniel. He is DoC.

    That "DoC" has no real campaign mechanics and no real characters attached. Just a badly implemented gimmick.
  • Biggles#4266Biggles#4266 Registered Users Posts: 3,277
    SerPus said:

    Reeks said:

    Yeah because having some of the main races in the setting being outright removed is perfectly comparable to a armybook having it´s content split up into pieces yet still being present...

    Yeah, it is. Would Host of the Eternity King army count as High Elves?

    Dude, you have Daniel. He is DoC.

    That "DoC" has no real campaign mechanics and no real characters attached. Just a badly implemented gimmick.
    He has his build a bear mechanic. It's real and I've played it.

    You may not like it. But you got it. No need to @veresh1989 this.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764

    He has his build a bear mechanic. It's real and I've played it.

    So did I, and that was awful.
  • Reeks#2417Reeks#2417 Registered Users Posts: 10,792
    SerPus said:

    Reeks said:

    Yeah because having some of the main races in the setting being outright removed is perfectly comparable to a armybook having it´s content split up into pieces yet still being present...

    Yeah, it is. Would Host of the Eternity King army count as High Elves?

    Dude, you have Daniel. He is DoC.

    That "DoC" has no real campaign mechanics and no real characters attached. Just a badly implemented gimmick.
    Moving goalposts i see



    Nurgle is love

    Nurgle is life

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  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764
    Reeks said:

    Moving goalposts i see

    How so?
  • Biggles#4266Biggles#4266 Registered Users Posts: 3,277
    SerPus said:

    He has his build a bear mechanic. It's real and I've played it.

    So did I, and that was awful.
    You may not like it. But you got it. No need to @veresh1989 this.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764


    You may not like it. But you got it. No need to @veresh1989 this.

    What does veresh have to do with anything?
  • Bonutz#3949Bonutz#3949 Registered Users Posts: 5,955

    I have come here to chew bubblegum and kick ass...and I’m all out of bubblegum.
  • Biggles#4266Biggles#4266 Registered Users Posts: 3,277
    SerPus said:


    You may not like it. But you got it. No need to @veresh1989 this.

    What does veresh have to do with anything?
    Wasn't happy with his favourite race and went OTT about how bad it was even though everyone else was fine with it.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764

    Wasn't happy with his favourite race and went OTT about how bad it was even though everyone else was fine with it.

    Well, DoC isn't my favorite race and apperantly not everyone else is fine with how it was implemented. Overwise this thread wouldn't exist, would it? Also, what's OTT in that case? Participating in a discussion?
  • Jerroser#9933Jerroser#9933 Registered Users Posts: 848
    edited July 2022
    Given how long they've been working on each of these factions behind the scenes, I doubt its remotely realistic to expect them to redo Belakor's faction before IE is released.

    Plus they already made it a key selling point that he has such a high level of access to demon units that he's able created dedicated armies using them anyway. Although I do admit to wondering just how far his access will go and whether he will get literally everything from the demon roasters or if there will be somethings that are excluded. As well as the lord options that he can get, such as if he can use the generic demon lords/heroes or if he's such with mortal lords aside from the Demon Princes mentioned in his blog. Plus if he can only get these though the mechanic to corrupt enemy lords or if there is a way to get them outside of that.

    Lastly the other big question is whether, the new WoC factions will be allowed to confederate each other or if they will have access to such wildly different toys that it would be too difficult to reconcile them in to the same factions.
  • Biggles#4266Biggles#4266 Registered Users Posts: 3,277
    SerPus said:

    Wasn't happy with his favourite race and went OTT about how bad it was even though everyone else was fine with it.

    Well, DoC isn't my favorite race and apperantly not everyone else is fine with how it was implemented. Overwise this thread wouldn't exist, would it? Also, what's OTT in that case? Participating in a discussion?
    My mistake that it's not your favourite race. There's like four people crying over this when you have Danny and Belakor who can go full demon. As for OTT:

    "This is a travesty, stop making excuses for it."

    "But fans being mad because they waited 7 years for something that was promised and not delivered is perfectly understandable."

    "That "DoC" has no real campaign mechanics and no real characters attached."

    You got DoC, you don't even know how Belakor will work but claiming the above is OTT and a little hysterical IMHO.
  • hillbillymachinegunhillbillymachinegun Registered Users Posts: 465

    So, you're basically just asking them to remove Be'lakor from multiplayer?

    DoC cannot ever be in multiplayer because such a large roster pulling from 4 different races would destroy any shred of balance in the game. If not DoC, they have to put him somewhere, and WoC is the only viable option.

    Functionally, Be'lakor has a DoC campaign but WoC multiplayer. I think most people would agree that is better than him not being in multiplayer at all. Not that Be'lakor having mortal servants was unloreful in the first place. There's nothing to complain about.

    "Skaven cannot ever be in multiplayer because such a large roster would destroy any shred of balance in the game"

    Daemons of Chaos are an 8th edition armybook. They should be in multiplayer with a pure daemon roster. The monogods should be balanced with new units, unique to them and not present in DoC. They shouldn't be barred from it just because of some lobotomized monogod pseudo-races.

    This is a travesty, stop making excuses for it.
    Not even slightly comparable. The Skaven roster has a lot of bloat first of all. Need I list every slinger variant? Second, they aren't overpowered in the slightest and still have their favorable and unfavorable matchups.

    The monogod races were designed to be extremely asymmetric. If you lump them all together, they don't just become a jack of all trades, they become a master of all trades.

    And enough of that sad "pseudo-races" garbage. People spouting this nonsense seem to want to keep them in a crippled state, never wanting them to get another piece of content again. One or two DLCs each and they'll be just as full as any other race in IE.

    Monogods = more content in the long run.

    Monogods = better balance in MP.

    Monogods = unique aesthetic, mechanics, tech trees, building chains, and flavor text for each race.

    Monogods = lore accurate rivalries and animosity between followers of each god.

    Daemons of Chaos Undivided = gigantic, diluted, jumbled blob of units, representing a fragile "alliance" that only briefly flickers into existence during major chaos invasions and end times scenarios. They only exist as an army book because GW was too lazy to make 4 of them. Had they not killed off the setting, they eventually would have been separated. Mind you, at one point Beastmen, Warriors of Chaos, and Daemons of Chaos all shared an army book before getting their own separate books. Might as well argue for Humans Undivided, or Elves Undivided at this point.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764

    "This is a travesty, stop making excuses for it."

    Who are you quoting exactly?


    "But fans being mad because they waited 7 years for something that was promised and not delivered is perfectly understandable."

    "That "DoC" has no real campaign mechanics and no real characters attached."

    Well, what's wrong with these quotes?
  • Alchimist#7739Alchimist#7739 Registered Users Posts: 394
    I don't understand how people can be upset about Be'lakor, he'll have access to some daemons (with the exception of greater daemons if I had to guess) while also having access to everything from the WoC, literally the best of both worlds.

    In the lore the Chaos Gods hate Be'lakor, and he hates them, so it's natural he wouldn't have access to greater daemons. Furthermore, Be'lakor always used the WoC as a proxy for his plans of conquest.
  • Biggles#4266Biggles#4266 Registered Users Posts: 3,277
    SerPus said:

    "This is a travesty, stop making excuses for it."

    Who are you quoting exactly?


    "But fans being mad because they waited 7 years for something that was promised and not delivered is perfectly understandable."

    "That "DoC" has no real campaign mechanics and no real characters attached."

    Well, what's wrong with these quotes?
    First quote is my mistake, same avatar!

    Second quote. DoC are literally in the game now. Also your getting Belakor with different mechanic who can also go full DoC which is probably what he's designed to do.

    Third quote. DoC has a real mechanic. Just because you don't like it doesn't make it real. Like climate change deniers!
  • NickCageStoleMyFace#5594NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 Registered Users Posts: 4,151
    edited July 2022
    Man a lot of goalposts moved from people who originally wanted Sigvald in Slaanesh.

    Complete 180 by some. Can’t wait to see how far they move when Valkia, Vilitch and Festus join the WoC.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764

    who can also go full DoC

    Can he?

    DoC has a real mechanic

    DoC has mechanics from the god-aligned races slapped on their armies. Nothing unique.
  • Jirzik#3160Jirzik#3160 Registered Users Posts: 516
    For me, it's just weird that in IE Kholek can confederate Be'lakor but DP can't (unless CA made Be'lakor confederateable for every chaos faction).

    Right now I believe that Monos get only Daemons LLs and mortal champions stay in WoC.Mortals units are there only to complete their rosters
  • Biggles#4266Biggles#4266 Registered Users Posts: 3,277
    SerPus said:

    who can also go full DoC

    Can he?

    DoC has a real mechanic

    DoC has mechanics from the god-aligned races slapped on their armies. Nothing unique.
    Can he? Maybe wait a bit and find out rather than complaining about it before all details are released. From the blog I'd say yes he certainly can.

    I don't remember being able to build a Tzeetch Demon Prince in Kairos's campaign but if you say that's in there I'll trust you.

    Also good to see you're still doing the thing where you only reply to selected parts of a post! A lot easier than dealing with a whole point!
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764

    Can he? Maybe wait a bit and find out rather than complaining about it before all details are released. From the blog I'd say yes he certainly can.

    So you are basically saying that people who wanted him in DoC shouldn't even voice their opinions and concerns?

    I don't remember being able to build a Tzeetch Demon Prince in Kairos's campaign but if you say that's in there I'll trust you.

    Kairos has the same teleportantion mechanic. And the whole "build a daemon" thing is slightly improved item system that every other race has as well. Only they pick swords and shields and Daemon Prince pick tails and wings. Do you want +5 melee attack or +7 charge bonus?

    Also good to see you're still doing the thing where you only reply to selected parts of a post!

    I'm addressing points from the post, rather than just writing a vague esse on the topic. Did I leave something out? The notion that DoC is in the game? Well, yeah, there is something that CA call DoC. The whole point is how much that something resemble real DoC.
  • Biggles#4266Biggles#4266 Registered Users Posts: 3,277
    SerPus said:

    Can he? Maybe wait a bit and find out rather than complaining about it before all details are released. From the blog I'd say yes he certainly can.

    So you are basically saying that people who wanted him in DoC shouldn't even voice their opinions and concerns?

    I don't remember being able to build a Tzeetch Demon Prince in Kairos's campaign but if you say that's in there I'll trust you.

    Kairos has the same teleportantion mechanic. And the whole "build a daemon" thing is slightly improved item system that every other race has as well. Only they pick swords and shields and Daemon Prince pick tails and wings. Do you want +5 melee attack or +7 charge bonus?

    Also good to see you're still doing the thing where you only reply to selected parts of a post!

    I'm addressing points from the post, rather than just writing a vague esse on the topic. Did I leave something out? The notion that DoC is in the game? Well, yeah, there is something that CA call DoC. The whole point is how much that something resemble real DoC.
    Okay, so what is a real DoC for you? Tell us what you want rather than just complaining. The favour mechanic is pretty good to me.

    And leaving out parts of previous posts can admittedly be good for staying focused but a lot of the time to me it seems like you use it to avoid some things that you don't want to answer.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764

    Okay, so what is a real DoC for you? Tell us what you want rather than just complaining.

    But I already did. A race with unique mechanics(whole race, not just an ability to customize one lord) and characters. Ideally I would want all of the character that DoC had, but Be'lakor would be fine enough. And again, I don't necesseraly think that we are going to get a bad implementation of Be'lakor, nor am I particullary sad that DoC will forever remain what they are now. However if people are okay with DoC being handled that way, then they should also be okay with other races getting the same treatment.

    it seems like you use it to avoid some things that you don't want to answer.

    Perhaps I didn't consider these things to be important parts of the post. You can always bring them up if you do.
  • MalalTheRenegade#5644MalalTheRenegade#5644 Registered Users Posts: 1,284
    edited July 2022

    SerPus said:

    Can he? Maybe wait a bit and find out rather than complaining about it before all details are released. From the blog I'd say yes he certainly can.

    So you are basically saying that people who wanted him in DoC shouldn't even voice their opinions and concerns?

    I don't remember being able to build a Tzeetch Demon Prince in Kairos's campaign but if you say that's in there I'll trust you.

    Kairos has the same teleportantion mechanic. And the whole "build a daemon" thing is slightly improved item system that every other race has as well. Only they pick swords and shields and Daemon Prince pick tails and wings. Do you want +5 melee attack or +7 charge bonus?

    Also good to see you're still doing the thing where you only reply to selected parts of a post!

    I'm addressing points from the post, rather than just writing a vague esse on the topic. Did I leave something out? The notion that DoC is in the game? Well, yeah, there is something that CA call DoC. The whole point is how much that something resemble real DoC.
    Okay, so what is a real DoC for you? Tell us what you want rather than just complaining. The favour mechanic is pretty good to me.
    It has always been clear that people asking for proper DoC want a faction with only demonic units (so no Monomortals like Daniel, no WoC like what's expected for Be'Lakor) and dedicated mechanics (Be'Lakor seems fine on this part). Which is basically the opportunity to play the DoC armybook.

    If you enter the debate without knowing the basic claim, you shouldn't participate in it. Just continue your very constructive "popping in to disagree".
  • Biggles#4266Biggles#4266 Registered Users Posts: 3,277
    SerPus said:

    Okay, so what is a real DoC for you? Tell us what you want rather than just complaining.

    But I already did. A race with unique mechanics(whole race, not just an ability to customize one lord) and characters. Ideally I would want all of the character that DoC had, but Be'lakor would be fine enough. And again, I don't necesseraly think that we are going to get a bad implementation of Be'lakor, nor am I particullary sad that DoC will forever remain what they are now. However if people are okay with DoC being handled that way, then they should also be okay with other races getting the same treatment.

    it seems like you use it to avoid some things that you don't want to answer.

    Perhaps I didn't consider these things to be important parts of the post. You can always bring them up if you do.
    Fair enough about the parts of the posts that you reply to.

    So you just want unique mechanics. Can you elaborate? Are you happy if they still have access to mortals like Doom Knights? Also doesn't it make sense that an undivided DoC would be able to make use of each god's gifts?

    They do have their unique Danny devotion mechanic, which I admit is partly just getting him cool equipment, and layering that with each god's mechanic makes sense to me.
  • SerPus#7395SerPus#7395 Registered Users Posts: 11,764

    So you just want unique mechanics. Can you elaborate?

    Sure. Just compare them with other chaos races with got in TWW3. Each of them has unique mechanics that affect the whole race, except for DoC. DoC sole mechanic besically does four things: unlock minor monogod mechanics, unlock units, alter stats and ability kit for the Daemon Prince, and buff units. And those unit buffs come with DoC having no tech tree.

    Other than general buffs and avalable units, it's completly centered on one character. With god-aligned races their mechanics affect the whole race.

    They do have their unique Danny devotion mechanic, which I admit is partly just getting him cool equipment, and layering that with each god's mechanic makes sense to me.

    I don't think his equipment is even that cool. They are just items with different stats and some bound spells/traits.

    Are you happy if they still have access to mortals like Doom Knights? Also doesn't it make sense that an undivided DoC would be able to make use of each god's gifts?

    Yeah, I'm personally fine with mortals. In fact, I would rather represent DoC by allowing them to use each other units once they win the Great Game.
  • Mikobot#5742Mikobot#5742 Registered Users Posts: 567
    Belakor is fine where he is. He gets to enjoy having access to the units of both army books that he was apart of, and at the same time he brings Daemon Prince generic lord options to the table (something we can see will get tacked onto WoC, and potentially Monos as well).

    People are being overly dramatic about the situation, some individuals here need to take a serious step back before making posts.
  • Crossil#2134Crossil#2134 Registered Users Posts: 14,927
    edited July 2022
    There is no DoC race. It was killed to create the Mary Sue. And it's designed in the worst way possible.

    You should've complained when Warhammer 3 was released. But you just went along with CA's eccentricities.
    Furthermore, I consider that Daemon Prince must be removed.
  • Leping#7906Leping#7906 Registered Users Posts: 672
    Alchimist said:

    I don't understand how people can be upset about Be'lakor, he'll have access to some daemons (with the exception of greater daemons if I had to guess) while also having access to everything from the WoC, literally the best of both worlds.

    In the lore the Chaos Gods hate Be'lakor, and he hates them, so it's natural he wouldn't have access to greater daemons. Furthermore, Be'lakor always used the WoC as a proxy for his plans of conquest.

    We even have Vermintid DLC with Be'lakor without any deamon to see.

    It a good WoC lord, with, i hope, a huge access to deamon units for flavor (and i take deamon prince everyday instead greater deamon who can be a Daniel/Monogod specifity. It make him unique in his way)

    And i prefer CA push his agenda a go to work as intended to waste time and ressources just a gimmick twick like this.

    I'never liked Sartrosa and Aranessa undead lord, i mod it living, DoC Be'lakor will had this two. Mod is cool for the more gimmick demands of the fan.
  • Sultschiem#8734Sultschiem#8734 Registered Users Posts: 3,715

    The plan is to get all sixteen armies (and, yes, I mean 16 despite there being 15 army books…) in the game by journey’s end.

    -Andy Hall (2016)

    Does that really count as a promise?

    They did deliver the DoC army book in Multiplayer, the only exceptions are the LL choices.

    With Vampire Coast, Norsca, Cathay and Kislev, they already delivered more than what they promised.


    As for armies:

    WE, DE, HE,
    Empire, Bretonnia,
    DoC, WoC, Beastmen
    Tomb Kings, Vampire Counts
    Greenskins, Ogres
    Lizardmen
    Dwarves
    Skaven
    Chaos Dwarves

    Thats 16
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