Remember the hammerers!

eumaies#1128

Long ago, Dwarven hammerers were a very solid 1100 point armour piercing brawler of a unit. Class acts all around, even in a meta that could be a little hard on slow elite infantry. They packed a punch.

Then came the dark times. CA - influenced no doubt by Tzeentch - thought that splash damage was a buff (it is a big nerf), gave hammerers splash attacks, +4 MD, and a 100 point cost increase.

Now the unit is useless. But it was a really important unit on the roster, one of the few dwarf melee infantry that packs a punch and quick.

We need you to revert the MD and splash attack changes and lower the cost back to 1100. Let the hammers ring in the hills once more! You can do it CA!

saweendra#3399

and give them magic damage i know this **** with coast match but its already **** beyond repair

Spellbound1875#4610

Actually they could probably keep the MD given CA's recent push towards buffing GW MD in game 3. But price cut and splash damage revert are necessary.

mightygloin#2446

Disregarding 1v1 tests in a vacuum, Imo they were bad before too, just less bad. Would prefer they kept their cost and get adjusted from there. For starters they could get more HP - just 150 more than some elven elites is a joke.

RazeAndBurn#6771

Did Game 3 even rework how Elite AP units behave? When Game 2 was wrapping up standard GW reigned supreme with the changes to infantry combat.

yst#1879

-$100 will make them viable, a compromise of the old and helps the dev save face for their mistake. They get to keep the lousy design, we get the the costs cut.

eumaies#1128

yst said:

-$100 will make them viable, a compromise of the old and helps the dev save face for their mistake. They get to keep the lousy design, we get the the costs cut.

unfortunately, no. even with the original price and the MD buff they got they are still worse than the original hammerers for the same price. splash damage is that bad.

And if they don't remove the splash damage it will haunt them forever - people will assume they're over-statted when in fact they're under-statted.

yst#1879

eumaies said:

And if they don't remove the splash damage it will haunt them forever - people will assume they're over-statted when in fact they're under-statted.

Lets just beg for -$100 first lol

I mean we still have units in game that needs like -$600 cut, hint hint, Kroak the useless thats never, ever gonna be viable for the next 10 yrs

Really dunno who came up with this splash thing, its not well tested.

songoffire#8157

Remove the Splash atk !

Loupi#8512

eumaies said:

yst said:

-$100 will make them viable, a compromise of the old and helps the dev save face for their mistake. They get to keep the lousy design, we get the the costs cut.

unfortunately, no. even with the original price and the MD buff they got they are still worse than the original hammerers for the same price. splash damage is that bad.

And if they don't remove the splash damage it will haunt them forever - people will assume they're over-statted when in fact they're under-statted.

the only way to keep splash and be useful is if they add antiinfantry/large, which from tests seems to apply after the splash splits the WS up, so they would become very good specialists, but yeah if you want to keep them as generalist AP then really gotta lose that splash

DaBoyzAreBackInTown#9604

Another potential option for Hammerers instead of a price change that might be an interesting gameplay change would be:

- Hammerers: +Armour-Sundering
- Peak Gate Guard: -Splash Attacks, - Armour-Sundering, +Guardian (maybe a small base damage boost similar to how the Sky-Striders Ogre ROR cav get)

I was never a huge fan of the Peak Gate Guard implementation of Magic Attacks + Armour Sundering, so this could be an interesting way to still keep armour-sundering in the roster and make them more of an elite guard unit for dwarf characters as well.

Bastilean#7242

They will feel a lot better in campaign too after CA stops the AI from nuking all elite infantry with their ranged stuff

Pocman#6295

Remove the splash attack!

RazeAndBurn#6771

Or just add WS?

KhorneFlakes

Remove The Splash damage

#568367

I have a pet theory that whoever implemented splash attacks must have mistaken TW for normal RTS games where splash attacks didn't have this wonky ass damage distribution mechanic tacked in, so a unit hit by the splash attack all took damage rather than the bs that happens in this game's splash formula

Bastilean#7242

Splash on Grimgore makes sense. It all comes down to reducing the animation debt. You basically get 5 or 6 swings worth of damage distributed like it was 5 or 6 swings at 5 or 6 opponents. Against chaff this is a good thing that reduces wasted damage.

On trolls whom do 100 damage ok. Even in this case, splash 4 is too many, and it hurts the unit performance. Splash greater than 1 target per 50 damage is too many targets to be useful.

On the Hammerers it makes no sense. Hammerers do 55 damage. Peasants have 54 health. Why would anyone ever want to split 55 damage? It makes no sense.


Tools/Functions like splash aren't in the game to reduce functionality. One can only assume that this is a mistake.

damon40000#7640

mistake that is still in the game

BloodyStream#7178

They are still better than units like marauder champion gw and har Ganeth executioner

RazeAndBurn#6771

BloodyStream said:

They are still better than units like marauder champion gw and har Ganeth executioner

As I recall executioners were still used at the end of the game both basic and RoR.

Marauder Champions were overpriced like most infantry and with no way for Norsca to support them they were overlooked in favour of chaff GW.

Cosmic_Lich#1188

I don't dislike the idea of splash damage, I just don't like it on Hammerers. Dwarves have tight formations and it would be ridiculous to make sweeping attacks right next to your dwarven buddy who does the same. I really like the extra Melee Defence though. I would personally remove the splash attacks and add some damage or give armour breaking.

Indypride#7329

forwarded your input to CA, I basically have the same thoughts. they weren't amazing before the change, but I essentially never see them after it. Against all these melee focused Daemon and WoC factions, they could be quite useful in game 3 with a bit of lovin'

eumaies#1128

Indypride said:

forwarded your input to CA, I basically have the same thoughts. they weren't amazing before the change, but I essentially never see them after it. Against all these melee focused Daemon and WoC factions, they could be quite useful in game 3 with a bit of lovin'

much appreciated!

saweendra#3399

Indypride said:

forwarded your input to CA, I basically have the same thoughts. they weren't amazing before the change, but I essentially never see them after it. Against all these melee focused Daemon and WoC factions, they could be quite useful in game 3 with a bit of lovin'

R u the offical coordinator now for the tw fourms to rely our inputs to CA?

Regardless thank you very much mate for your work.


Kind of depressed that un paid volunteers have to rely massages on the offical fourms to the owners of the fourm

dge1

Inappropriate comments about other members edited or removed.

ThibixMagnus#8300

Loupi_ said:

eumaies said:

yst said:

-$100 will make them viable, a compromise of the old and helps the dev save face for their mistake. They get to keep the lousy design, we get the the costs cut.

unfortunately, no. even with the original price and the MD buff they got they are still worse than the original hammerers for the same price. splash damage is that bad.

And if they don't remove the splash damage it will haunt them forever - people will assume they're over-statted when in fact they're under-statted.

the only way to keep splash and be useful is if they add antiinfantry/large, which from tests seems to apply after the splash splits the WS up, so they would become very good specialists, but yeah if you want to keep them as generalist AP then really gotta lose that splash

wait what does that mean "bonuses apply after the splash splits"? meaning a 15 Bvi with 2 splash targets can deal 30 total damage just from the bonus? if so, I guess one always learns...

Loupi#8512

ThibixMagnus said:

Loupi_ said:

eumaies said:

yst said:

-$100 will make them viable, a compromise of the old and helps the dev save face for their mistake. They get to keep the lousy design, we get the the costs cut.

unfortunately, no. even with the original price and the MD buff they got they are still worse than the original hammerers for the same price. splash damage is that bad.

And if they don't remove the splash damage it will haunt them forever - people will assume they're over-statted when in fact they're under-statted.

the only way to keep splash and be useful is if they add antiinfantry/large, which from tests seems to apply after the splash splits the WS up, so they would become very good specialists, but yeah if you want to keep them as generalist AP then really gotta lose that splash

wait what does that mean "bonuses apply after the splash splits"? meaning a 15 Bvi with 2 splash targets can deal 30 total damage just from the bonus? if so, I guess one always learns...

example, 50WS with 10 B v infantry and 2 splash targets would deal 25+10 to each model

Bastilean#7242

deleted comments

eumaies#1128

Cmon ca you just nerfed every ranged unit at least give me usable hammerers back.

Fiddlestickz

eumaies said:

Cmon ca you just nerfed every ranged unit at least give me usable hammerers back.

I think it's hilarious that melee blobs were dominating the meta so CA responded by nerfing ranged units.

RazeAndBurn#6771

I've just done a test with a Pick any unit as a lord and an addon tables where I removed splash animations and reduced splash targets from 2 to 1.

- Hammerers vs basic Chaos Warriors
- Spaghetti line Hammers against the border of deployment and attack
- Measure start time on first impact
- Pause as soon as CW break gather the ending stats
- 5 runs

Average results:

Vanilla stats:
- Kill time 1:29 (89 seconds)
- Surviving Chaos Warriors 28,4 with 1618,2 HP
- Surviving Hammerers 85,6 with 6343,8 HP

Modded stats:
- Kill time 1:08 (68 seconds)
- Surviving Chaos Warriors 29,8 with 1871,4 HP
- Surviving Hammerers 89,8 with 6829 HP

Basically the splash increases the time it takes to defeat a unit of CWGW by a whooping 30% which makes both of them take higher casualties. In a real game scenario the difference in perfomance should not be as stark as there are many more contributing factors but it is there judging by the

Poor lads also got hit with a +100g nerf for getting worse at their job.