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Undocumented change to Jade Lancers and its' implications

RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
edited August 2022 in Warhammer Battle Feedback
Apparently someone at CA thinks that the heavy cavlary moving at 66 speed are underperforming and should be 78 speed instead.

I completely agree and I blieve that this change should be spread across all of 66 spd cav like Empire Knights, Reiksguard and Cold One cavalry units both DE and LZM.

Now Jade Lancers who are fully clad in heavy lamellar armour and sport plate barding on their horses move at 78 spd, while Bretonnian Knights who ride the horses descended from Elvish bred ancestors who are the fastest horsies in the WHFB universe for some reason move at a lower 75 spd. This will absolutely won't do them justice especially considering that the entire BRT roster revolves around cavalry supremacy and between 78 spd Jade Lancers and 84 spd Winged Lancers you're taking away their main advantage.

By the Lady, a recompense is in order! Bretonnian cavalry not only should be not slower or on par with the cavalry of other races but faster since their entire culture and society revolves around horsemanship! A uniform speed of 84 would suffice I'd say but then we have to remember their Nemesis - Blood Knights who have a slowish speed of 70 and such a difference would surely impact negatively the unit tied for the best in the entire lore and game. A speed of 78 would be appropriate given that they also recieve Hunger in Game3.

Speaking of the fastest horses in the WHFB universe: how comes High Elf cavalry is among the slowest in Game3? The finest breed of horse ridden by the "horsemaster without peer" amount to the slowest speed of 90 among the light cavalry. A complete injustice that persists with HE heavy cavalry who in Table Top have Ithilmar Barding quoted to be "as strong as tempered steel yet weighs no more than silk" that does not reduce the mount's speed ie Silver Helms are supposed to move at light cav speed. Alas somehow half-norscan brutes on unsophisticated horses raised in harsh climate are somehow faster...

Dragon Princes are in the same boat but given their better stats and higher armour it would be reasonable if they moved slower, say at 84 spd as the afformentioned half-norscans.

And while we are in the Elven territory would someone please fix the poor Glade Riders. With their 6/6 accel decel stats in the battle_entities table and exuberant HE price policy they are probably the worst light cavalry in the game. It wasn't them who broke BRT and HE matchups after all so it is unfair that they suffer an artificial penalty.

TLDR:

Update Game1 and Game2 cavalry speeds to match Game3 powercreep.
Post edited by CA_Will#2514 on
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Comments

  • Loreguy#1056Loreguy#1056 Registered Users Posts: 1,853
    Horses should be faster than bears.

    Make Bretonnia great (or at least good) again.
  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475
    Loreguy said:

    Horses should be faster than bears.

    Make Bretonnia great (or at least good) again.

    I completely forgot the 75spd bears...

    I mean bears are quite fast in bursts but so are the horses.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583
    edited July 2022
    I mean winged lancers move at 85 speed 85 **** fast as goddamn wild rideers while wearing 80 armour


    The lore literally says that kislev horses are inferiror to bret and elf horses

    Rather than nerfing this garbage they destroyed a perfectly balanced unit

    And horse Thiving continues.


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 2,047
    All empire cav also move at 78 speed on the IE early access as well. Pretty sure it's an oversight on CA's part and they didn't intend to make Cathay and the Empire faster than Bret and Kislev.
  • Loupi#8512Loupi#8512 Registered Users Posts: 3,781
    edited July 2022
    like if empire horse and bears can do 78/75 speed then elven steed are 90 easily,such powercreep


  • RazeAndBurnRazeAndBurn Registered Users Posts: 475

    All empire cav also move at 78 speed on the IE early access as well. Pretty sure it's an oversight on CA's part and they didn't intend to make Cathay and the Empire faster than Bret and Kislev.

    All? I've only seen Knights of the Blazing Sun but they were 70 spd vs 66 on Empire and Reiksguard. I remember when they made Boar Boys 70spd as well Felkon raised a point that it heavily affecte EMP/GS match up because now GS could effectively tie up KotBS who were the counter to many of the units on GS roster.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583
    Loupi_ said:

    like if empire horse and bears can do 78/75 speed then elven steed are 90 easily,such powercreep

    Lovely isn't it. Garbage balance.



    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583
    I blame domination and domination fans and also the horse thif fans for this **** show.


    @CA_Will was it worth it destroying all the balance for pointless for the sake of domination and its less than smart fans

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 2,047

    All empire cav also move at 78 speed on the IE early access as well. Pretty sure it's an oversight on CA's part and they didn't intend to make Cathay and the Empire faster than Bret and Kislev.

    All? I've only seen Knights of the Blazing Sun but they were 70 spd vs 66 on Empire and Reiksguard. I remember when they made Boar Boys 70spd as well Felkon raised a point that it heavily affecte EMP/GS match up because now GS could effectively tie up KotBS who were the counter to many of the units on GS roster.
    You can see the stats in this video for Empire Knights and Reiksguard, both at 78 speed.

    2:11 for Empire Knights
    2:16 for Reiksguard

    For Knights of the Blazing Sun you can see them in this video.

    3:31 for the Knights of the Blazing Sun. You can also see cold one knights are still at 66 speed.

    I don't think it's an intended change and I fully expect CA to revert it (they certainly should since none of these cav need to be that fast. 70 speed would be the high end of what I'd expect for Cathay and Empire Cavalry if CA does want to give them a boost but I wouldn't be surprised if they remain at 66 (with KotBS keeping their 71 to match their more offensive statline).
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583

    All empire cav also move at 78 speed on the IE early access as well. Pretty sure it's an oversight on CA's part and they didn't intend to make Cathay and the Empire faster than Bret and Kislev.

    All? I've only seen Knights of the Blazing Sun but they were 70 spd vs 66 on Empire and Reiksguard. I remember when they made Boar Boys 70spd as well Felkon raised a point that it heavily affecte EMP/GS match up because now GS could effectively tie up KotBS who were the counter to many of the units on GS roster.
    You can see the stats in this video for Empire Knights and Reiksguard, both at 78 speed.

    2:11 for Empire Knights
    2:16 for Reiksguard

    For Knights of the Blazing Sun you can see them in this video.

    3:31 for the Knights of the Blazing Sun. You can also see cold one knights are still at 66 speed.

    I don't think it's an intended change and I fully expect CA to revert it (they certainly should since none of these cav need to be that fast. 70 speed would be the high end of what I'd expect for Cathay and Empire Cavalry if CA does want to give them a boost but I wouldn't be surprised if they remain at 66 (with KotBS keeping their 71 to match their more offensive statline).
    speed doesn't matter it only matters how much they can trade spellbond 2022 .

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,231

    Apparently someone at CA thinks that the heavy cavlary moving at 66 speed are underperforming and should be 78 speed instead.

    I completely agree and I blieve that this change should be spread across all of 66 spd cav like Empire Knights, Reiksguard and Cold One cavalry units both DE and LZM.

    I completely disagree... I thought 66 speed was good for a lot of Cavalry. Are they going to be bumping up eveybody else who should be faster? I mean I wouldn't mind maybe redoing the range of fast moving units to create more differential in the middle but just moving up "slow" cavalry speeds while not also adjusting upward "Fast" Cavalry speeds is just power creep.
    Loreguy said:

    Horses should be faster than bears.

    Make Bretonnia great (or at least good) again.

    Fix the Bears not the Horses.

  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,231
    saweendra said:

    I mean winged lancers move at 85 speed 85 **** fast as goddamn wild rideers while wearing 80 armour


    The lore literally says that kislev horses are inferiror to bret and elf horses

    Rather than nerfing this garbage they destroyed a perfectly balanced unit

    And horse Thiving continues.

    That depends on the lore...

    Hell the Lore even states that Bret Horses are superior because they come from "Northern" stock which could very well mean Kislev.

    The Lore is all over the place on who has the best Horses.

    Bretonnia, Araby, the Elves, Kislev all get mentions.

    Who knows there are multiple types of horses...

    Destriers, Coursers, Rounceys, et cetera... Theres also multiple ways to "Be the Best" Strength, Speed, Endurance, Et Cetera.
  • damon40000#7640damon40000#7640 Registered Users Posts: 1,933
    if we are powercreeping speed here, then slayers should also run with a speed of at least 70
    BsFG dwarf
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583
    OdTengri said:

    saweendra said:

    I mean winged lancers move at 85 speed 85 **** fast as goddamn wild rideers while wearing 80 armour


    The lore literally says that kislev horses are inferiror to bret and elf horses

    Rather than nerfing this garbage they destroyed a perfectly balanced unit

    And horse Thiving continues.

    That depends on the lore...

    Hell the Lore even states that Bret Horses are superior because they come from "Northern" stock which could very well mean Kislev.

    The Lore is all over the place on who has the best Horses.

    Bretonnia, Araby, the Elves, Kislev all get mentions.

    Who knows there are multiple types of horses...

    Destriers, Coursers, Rounceys, et cetera... Theres also multiple ways to "Be the Best" Strength, Speed, Endurance, Et Cetera.
    dude show me where that says kislev horse better , i have literal bloody amry book that said bret and elf horse better

    what kind of best in world do you have to be to run fast as **** best light shock cav in game wearing heavy/medium armour wake up dude wake up
    iif they had 40 armour yeah this would be exceptable they have 80 armour

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • ShevaTsar#8662ShevaTsar#8662 Registered Users Posts: 642
    Yet new stupid changes by the "developpers" of this game. If you didn't have enough clues at this point that they are either or all at the same time : clueless, incompetent, careless.
    Welcome to Cathay - the very ancient, super-duper, hyper, fantastic, incredible, majestic, wonderful, sexy, mighty empire, the greatest of all livings.
  • ShevaTsar#8662ShevaTsar#8662 Registered Users Posts: 642
    edited July 2022
    They think they can resurect this dead game like this but it just further proves that they didn't get why in the first place this game is a failure. It's not the missing of Immortal Empires, it's the lack of soul and point this game has. So many changes just for the sake of it, empty egg.

    What's next ? Goblins with 160 range archers ? High Elves with eagle claw bolthtrower rivaling best dwarven cannons ? Slayers running at the speed of ogres ?
    Welcome to Cathay - the very ancient, super-duper, hyper, fantastic, incredible, majestic, wonderful, sexy, mighty empire, the greatest of all livings.
  • mightygloin#2446mightygloin#2446 Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 6,123
    Welcome to the Balance 404: All over the place - WH3 edition lads.

    While you are at speed, there are also plenty of infantry; namely vampires, giants, elves and even some humans that should be swifter. You could set the 40 speed naked dwarfs as a benchmark for this, aka the gigachad dudes who individually weigh 100 kg naked, are at most 130 cm tall and run like Usain Bolt at his prime somehow. All the above mentioned examples should be faster :D

    Same story as above for bears. Both of them could get increased charge speed in conpensation for reduced overall speed. Wow not really creative, this game.
  • NoSkill4U#6552NoSkill4U#6552 Registered Users Posts: 5,160
    I think the speed of a normal horse should be decided by how much armor they carry.

    66 for Reiksguard is ok, since they are quite heavily armored.

    Chaos Knights demonic steeds could be a bit faster tho.
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 2,047
    TeNoSkill said:

    I think the speed of a normal horse should be decided by how much armor they carry.

    66 for Reiksguard is ok, since they are quite heavily armored.

    Chaos Knights demonic steeds could be a bit faster tho.

    Chaos Knights are now speed 70 on IE and I think that change was intended given the sizing change. I imagine since the build content creators got was lacking a bunch of stuff (the 1.3 RoR aren't present for instance) we'll see some bugfixes and balance adjustments show up soon for the content creators.
  • Sarmatianns#6760Sarmatianns#6760 Registered Users Posts: 4,928
    I guess Wild Ridera should be 92 and unarmoured elven cav shouls be 95-100.

    Better to reduce speed of other cavalry units, and of bears and demis
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583

    I guess Wild Ridera should be 92 and unarmoured elven cav shouls be 95-100.

    Better to reduce speed of other cavalry units, and of bears and demis

    and than there is the human light cav balance , bret cav . HE cav, lzm cav
    the whole situation with the undead cavalry TK and counts

    this is such a awesome case of balance.

    as our resident speed expert said speed doesn't matter only trading does . and proceed to play dom where trading also doesn't really matter

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,112
    edited July 2022
    Speed has been a particular element power creeped into wh3.

    Bear riders tread all over the toes of other kislev heavy cav

    They don't need to be superior in every way. Units should not be blanket improvements on each other.

    Bear riders being slower than heavy cav invites tactical and strategic decision making and trade offs which lead to involvement and enjoyment!

    60-68 speed for bears is enough. They really shouldn't be more than 66 generic heavy cav

  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 2,047

    Speed has been a particular element power creeped into wh3.

    Bear riders tread all over the toes of other kislev heavy cav

    They don't need to be superior in every way. Units should not be blanket improvements on each other.

    Bear riders being slower than heavy cav invites tactical and strategic decision making and trade offs which lead to involvement and enjoyment!

    60-68 speed for bears is enough. They really shouldn't be more than 66 generic heavy cav

    The argument that things like Crusher speed and War Bear speed are powercrept are somewhat suspect. Demigryph's from game 1 inexplicably have 75 speed and CA has tended to provide monstrous units with a higher speed than other cavalry.

    Beyond that their is a use case difference between monstrous units and heavy cavalry. Demigryphs with Lances have never been a particularly popular choice since for targeting infantry heavy shock cavalry tend to be superior to monstrous cavalry (see also the use cases for Wild Riders and Great Stag Knights). I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that the speed is a balance issue (though again Kislev Cav of all stripes seems to be at best okay from what we've seen) but the idea that this is a major reversal from CA in terms of balance doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Obviously if CA intended to buff empire cavalry and cathay cavalry to 78 speed while making no other changes in game I'd be against that but given the number of bugs we're seeing in the WIP build it seems more reasonable to ID it as a bug, pass it on to CA and wait.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,583

    Speed has been a particular element power creeped into wh3.

    Bear riders tread all over the toes of other kislev heavy cav

    They don't need to be superior in every way. Units should not be blanket improvements on each other.

    Bear riders being slower than heavy cav invites tactical and strategic decision making and trade offs which lead to involvement and enjoyment!

    60-68 speed for bears is enough. They really shouldn't be more than 66 generic heavy cav

    The argument that things like Crusher speed and War Bear speed are powercrept are somewhat suspect. Demigryph's from game 1 inexplicably have 75 speed and CA has tended to provide monstrous units with a higher speed than other cavalry.

    Beyond that their is a use case difference between monstrous units and heavy cavalry. Demigryphs with Lances have never been a particularly popular choice since for targeting infantry heavy shock cavalry tend to be superior to monstrous cavalry (see also the use cases for Wild Riders and Great Stag Knights). I don't think it's unreasonable to argue that the speed is a balance issue (though again Kislev Cav of all stripes seems to be at best okay from what we've seen) but the idea that this is a major reversal from CA in terms of balance doesn't make a lot of sense.

    Obviously if CA intended to buff empire cavalry and cathay cavalry to 78 speed while making no other changes in game I'd be against that but given the number of bugs we're seeing in the WIP build it seems more reasonable to ID it as a bug, pass it on to CA and wait.
    why are you specifically against their speed buff?

    this changes nothing on their ability to trade am i right. Or do your pet factions get free pass ?

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • OdTengri#8235OdTengri#8235 Registered Users Posts: 10,231

    I guess Wild Ridera should be 92 and unarmoured elven cav shouls be 95-100.

    Better to reduce speed of other cavalry units, and of bears and demis

    Yeah... I mean that's the only way I can support these changes... is if they are trying to make a greater distinction between Low Speed Cavalry and Infantry/Monstrous Infantry. The fast cavalry will need a comparable buff to speed to keep them actually "Fast Cavalry"
  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,926
    I just want bears to be slower than horses, even if they are heavy cav (horses)
  • Nitros14#7973Nitros14#7973 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,922
    edited July 2022
    Let's keep buffing everything's speed to keep up until everyone is 200 speed.

    Powercreep is good right.

    Real talk sometimes nerfs are a good thing. Winged Lancers and Bears have no business being as fast as they are.
  • mightygloin#2446mightygloin#2446 Karaz-a-KarakRegistered Users Posts: 6,123

    Speed has been a particular element power creeped into wh3.

    Bear riders tread all over the toes of other kislev heavy cav

    They don't need to be superior in every way. Units should not be blanket improvements on each other.

    Bear riders being slower than heavy cav invites tactical and strategic decision making and trade offs which lead to involvement and enjoyment!

    60-68 speed for bears is enough. They really shouldn't be more than 66 generic heavy cav

    The argument that things like Crusher speed and War Bear speed are powercrept are somewhat suspect. Demigryph's from game 1 inexplicably have 75 speed and CA has tended to provide monstrous units with a higher speed than other cavalry.
    .
    Inexplicably? Demigryphs had 8 movement which is exactly in between light and heavy cavalry. If anything, they should have more speed.

    Then came speed Gonzales Brood Horror rat with the same movement but with 95 speed?

    Bears had just 5 or 6 movement afaik and weren't even as fast as heavy cav. Not to mention this would be true irl too.

    See the pattern here? Nope there is no pattern. It's all random. Hss been their trend for a long while to randomize things for some reason.

    Get ready to see some 55 speed dwarf infantry or something in the future.

  • The_real_FAUST#6885The_real_FAUST#6885 Registered Users Posts: 2,112
    The attack intervals of jade lancers needs a look at as well...
  • Spellbound1875#4610Spellbound1875#4610 Registered Users Posts: 2,047
    @mightygloin Yeah I'd argue 75 is inexplicable given that speed 8 for demigryphs always felt like a decision that was pretty silly (such as lions moving at speed 8 for the high elves). On tabletop it was an odd call and it feels particularly strange that a lion bird outruns war horses and runs as fast as elven heavy cavalry, you know the fastest horses in the known world. Whether you find lore arguments compelling or not this threads full of them so it seems worth mentioning.

    If you're complaining about tabletop accuracy I'm not particularly moved. There are bigger gameplay variations with many of them not causing anyone to bat an eye. Black Knights are way slower than they would be on tabletop for example. KotBS are basically just Empire Knights on tabletop but that would have sucked so instead we got a faster, more offensively designed unit to constrast with the tankier Reiksguard. I've literally seen people complaining about demigryphs speed in the past and that makes some sense. They're a relatively late addition to the game and to go against the expected standard for speed and it's relation to toughness. Compared to earlier additions they stick out like a sore thumb.

    We also know CA's adapting a game and not translating it verbatim, they've made plenty of changes already to try an create meaningful gameplay distinctions between units. 75/78 are the high end speeds for heavy cavalry because if you go much higher the units start to reliably catch light cavalry since charge speed is consistent across cav (at least last I checked). Black Knights are notably slower so that Hexwraiths and Dire Wolves have a distinct speed advantage and can therefore serve a different role. It's not random even if it's sometimes a bad call and at least when looking at speed the instances where it's the determining factor in unit balance are minuscule (things like skeleton horsemen being speed 76 and Nehekharan horsemen being speed 78 is pretty dumb but the balance impact is negligible even if there is no compelling reason the more heavily armored unit is faster).

    For your specific examples Brood Horrors being at 95 is weird but can be pretty well understood from a roster diversity perspective. CA was worried they'd be too similar to the Mutant Rat Ogre at 70 or the Doom Wheel at 72 (which is around what speed 8 gets us per earlier units), a better duelist and a better anti-infantry tool respectively. I don't necessarily think the assessment was accurate but the idea that this was thoughtless (or that it implies we'll get a 55 speed dwarf unit because CA use a dart board to select for speed) is silly on the face of it. The devs are people, they make mistakes, misjudge decisions, and release units/factions that are underpowered or overpowered sometimes. You can say that may imply incompetence but I don't see a strong argument for thoughtlessness.

    Though for the Brood Horror I think a bigger issue was leaving scurry away on the mounted versions, creating the annoying pattern of being unable to catch or chase off Skaven characters who have over 100 MS. That feels like the result of not checking for synergies before designing a unit and then just not deeming it worthwhile to change after the fact (like marital prowess/martial mastery being slapped onto SE).

    @The_real_FAUST Attack interval is not attack speed, it's a standardizing factor to keep attack speed consistent regardless of animation length. Jade Lancers just have longer animations than the western cavalry and if the attack interval was the same length they'd make less attacks over the same period of time and they're damage is balanced around attacking at a similar rate.
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