Rework Melee Splash Mechanic

TheImperialWar#5677

melee splash damage should be reworked to help diversify single entity units and make them more effective at their intended role.

melee splash attacks should no longer divide their damage evenly between targets. the main target of the attack should always receive the full damage whether it is a splash attack or not.

instead add a new stat called splash ratio which determines how much damage is dealt to secondary targets of a splash attack. a ratio of 50% means secondary targets will receive 50% of weapon damage regardless of how many targets are affected.

this allows a bigger range of weapon strength for single entities and allows them to be more specialized. a carnosaur can have a very high weapon strength but a splash ratio of only 25% and a max target cap of 5 secondary targets. meanwhile a Stegadon may have a much lower weapon strength but a higher ratio such as 50% to a target cap of 20 units.

TheImperialWar#5677

just wanted to clarify what these changes would mean. this isn't a nerf or a buff to splash damage, rather it makes it more consistent and easier for devs to fine tune single entity damage output for single target vs multi target.

mainly it's about giving devs the tools to create more focused and specialized single entities with more levers to pull, hopefully resulting in more variety.

for players it would mainly result in a more consistent damage output from single entities. currently splash damage dealt can vary wildly between 4 targets hit and 8.

it would also allow players to better estimate the damage output single entities will do if the splash ratio and target cap is added to the melee attack info box.

Ethorin#1178

Actually that's straight a buff to splash damage, like, impossible to argue, that's a buff, now the splash is actually extra damage.

Honestly, if you were going to change splash to make it consistent, I'd say "apply full damage to primary target, any overkill damage goes to additional targets". That way splash isn't increasing the damage potential in a way it doesn't already, but it makes it more consistent at actually killing things.

SusaVile#9835

This would have to imply a severe reduction of single entity damage, which would in turn cause major issues on 1v1 between single entities(they would take forever).

Say you have a caster hero that does 200 damage. There are very few infantry units whose models have over that health (if any); this means even a mage would kill a model with each hit, and still have a chance to kill models of that infantry. Even 100 damage would imply dead models.

Any high damage melee hero would always overkill. Grimgor hits 7 targets, imagine him hitting for 500 on initial target and 250 the remaining 6. Each swing, 7 models killed.

Splash is one of the mechanics that work really well exactly how it is currently. You get more damage and your single entity can actually kill models with each swing; however, it is still effective to send infantry to clump and surround that entity as they can manage to survive long enough to do damage.

Btw, something that should be noted, is that single entities and chariot units are priority targets, and fighting alongside infantry can absorb all splash damage as it is all directed to them.

TheImperialWar#5677

they would only do more damage to the primary target, though due to overkill overall damage output to a unit can be made the same or worse. you can modify a giant to kill a unit of goblins in roughly the same amount of time as it is live.

and that's the point of these changes, it would allow greater control on how much aoe damage is being dealt in a consistent manner. whatever damage output you think a single entity unit should deal in splash damage, it can now do so reliably and in a repeatable manner.


single entity dueling uses single target damage depending on the splash attack target size and priority, so splash damage would be irrelevant in duels.

these changes would make a single entities weapon damage irrelevant for splash damage, you would have total control on how much splash damage they are allowed to do. we can make their single target and multi target damage output completely different. we can even make a splash ratio higher than 100% if we want splash to be stronger than single target.

using your example of Grimgor, at a 10% splash ratio with 7 target cap he would kill the main target and deal 50 damage to 6 other targets. that's a total of 300 damage worth of splash instead 500. splash damage is down, but single target damage is up. the opposite of what you said would happen.

as I said, it's not about buffing or nerfing splash damage. it's about giving better control over how much is dealt and do so reliably. this allows devs and modders to finetune single entity damage output and make single entities more reliable for players.

GloatingSwine#8098

TheImperialWar said:

using your example of Grimgor, at a 10% splash ratio with 7 target cap he would kill the main target and deal 50 damage to 6 other targets. that's a total of 300 damage worth of splash instead 500. splash damage is down, but single target damage is up. the opposite of what you said would happen.
.

Melee lords don't need more mechanics working against them....

TheImperialWar#5677

it can be for or against. if you believe Grimgor should deal more splash damage, now you have better tools to do so without affecting his single target damage output. just increase his splash ratio and target cap to whatever you feel works best without having to change his weapon damage.

these changes are about giving more control on single entity damage output and making it reliable, not on nerfing or buffing them.

Bastilean#7242

Ethorin said:

Honestly, if you were going to change splash to make it consistent, I'd say "apply full damage to primary target, any overkill damage goes to additional targets". That way splash isn't increasing the damage potential in a way it doesn't already, but it makes it more consistent at actually killing things.

It's already like this generally speaking. If you attack a Single Entity, that Single Entity will take all the damage, but if you attack troops, it will get split amongst splash targets.


To be fair to the OP I would like to be able to set a minimum amount of damage for splash. I would be happy if this number was based on collision damage rather than Weapon Strength, so Grimgor being small would not benefit, but a Star Dragon or a Rogue Idol would do collision damage to all smaller entities caught in their splash beyond the maximum.

I dislike seeing collisions where units fly off their feet taking zero damage. It's immersion breaking.

PS. If CA made Grimgor medium like Le Massif, I wouldn't be completely against that. He's easily as big as a cavalry model.

TheImperialWar#5677

this just adds another data point for how much splash damage is dealt.

currently if you want to increase splash damage you need to increase weapon damage. and if you want to deal less splash damage you have to lower weapon damage.

it is not possible on live to specify how much splash damage is dealt without touching single target weapon damage.

with this change if I want Grimgor to deal a maximum potential of 1k splash damage I just increase splash ratio or target cap. if I want Grimgor to deal 100 splash damage max I just reduce either of those data points.

unlike live I no longer need to touch weapon damage which affects single target dueling. you cannot reduce or increase splash damage potential currently without modifying weapon damage. and I want that to change.

whether it is a buff or a nerf to splash damage is entirely up to you since you can now specify exactly how much is dealt to entities consistently every time.

Rolf1989

Well, for what it's worth I agree with you. Seems like a much simpler system. I also like your example with the dinosaurs.
It is obviously far too late for such a big change now, though.