How to fix tomb king confederation.

overtaker40#8926

1. Change the word confederate to subjugate.

2. Make minor change to subjugated LL stats for example: -20 leadership and plus %20 weapon strength

3. Give them some sort of betrayal mechanic like dark elf loyalty but just to the subjugated LL. If it reaches zero they will rebel taking some nearby settlements and lords the number scaling with empire size.


This overhauls it in a fairly minor way but still allows them some sort of uniqueness for the Lore benefit. 3 is just an idea I know it wouldn't be for everyone.

Edit:

4. On successful confederation all new lords are wounded, armies disbanded(that exceed your current army cap) and heroes killed. (Inspired by gloating swines comment).

5. Confederation could be based on some sort of imperium score like the one in Rome, once you are a certain amount higher and best the enemy lord in battle they join you.

GoblinDoomStack#3145

Or just copy greenskins. Tomb Kings will only confederate if defeated. Settra didn’t submit because when they all fought upon awakening he came out on top and subjugated the others.

OdTengri#8235

4. Don't ever allow someone to confederate or subjugate Setra

overtaker40#8926

GoblinDoomStack said:

Or just copy greenskins. Tomb Kings will only confederate if defeated. Settra didn’t submit because when they all fought upon awakening he came out on top and subjugated the others.

that doesnt seem like enough.

OdTengri said:

4. Don't ever allow someone to confederate or subjugate Setra

well then he shouldnt ever lose

Goatforce#6625

Recruit Defeated LLs is the way

GloatingSwine#8098

None of this really addresses the reason you can't confederate Tomb Kings, which is that it would let you blow past your army and character limits in the early to midgame.

So actually the "change" required is that as soon as you confederate them all their armies crumble to nothing, heroes die and lords are wounded. You can then redeploy the lords 5 turns later.

Slayer_Yannir#8069

GloatingSwine said:

None of this really addresses the reason you can't confederate Tomb Kings, which is that it would let you blow past your army and character limits in the early to midgame.

So actually the "change" required is that as soon as you confederate them all their armies crumble to nothing, heroes die and lords are wounded. You can then redeploy the lords 5 turns later.

Tbf, the hero caps should be revised for TK. They are a tad bit too restrictive when your empire grows beyond Nehekhara. It wouldn't break the game either, the TK heroes are good but within reasonable limits.

pblllrr#9773

1. Settra can only confederate Khalida. He doesn't trust Arkhan and has banished Khatep until he solves his task.
2. Khalida can only confederate Khatep. She doesn't trust Arkhan due to vampire association and Settra does not serve.
3. Arkhan can't confederate anyone.
4. Khatep can't confederate anyone.

Might as well not bother.

overtaker40#8926

GloatingSwine said:

None of this really addresses the reason you can't confederate Tomb Kings, which is that it would let you blow past your army and character limits in the early to midgame.

So actually the "change" required is that as soon as you confederate them all their armies crumble to nothing, heroes die and lords are wounded. You can then redeploy the lords 5 turns later.

Well this as well

GeorgeTruman#8059

So I saw this posted elsewhere. I think tomb kings can actually benefit tremendously from vassalizing other tomb kings.

If you take another tomb king capital, you have to grow it to tier 5 and invest heavily in it to get access to three tier 5 constructs.

If you vassalize them you can build an outpost and use allied recruiting to possibly work around your caps.

overtaker40#8926

GeorgeTruman said:

So I saw this posted elsewhere. I think tomb kings can actually benefit tremendously from vassalizing other tomb kings.

If you take another tomb king capital, you have to grow it to tier 5 and invest heavily in it to get access to three tier 5 constructs.

If you vassalize them you can build an outpost and use allied recruiting to possibly work around your caps.

Won't it be the same problem as with the ogre mercs in 2. The gold upkeep being unsustainable?

GeorgeTruman#8059

overtaker40 said:

GeorgeTruman said:

So I saw this posted elsewhere. I think tomb kings can actually benefit tremendously from vassalizing other tomb kings.

If you take another tomb king capital, you have to grow it to tier 5 and invest heavily in it to get access to three tier 5 constructs.

If you vassalize them you can build an outpost and use allied recruiting to possibly work around your caps.

Won't it be the same problem as with the ogre mercs in 2. The gold upkeep being unsustainable?

I guess it depends. Ogre mercs have a universal upkeep cost, but I don't know if TK units do. I'm not sure if they'll give them an upkeep or not.

Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157

Loyalty is the worst mechanic in the game.

Keep it away from confederation.

Just let tomb kings confederate normally. Done.

GoblinDoomStack#3145

GeorgeTruman said:

So I saw this posted elsewhere. I think tomb kings can actually benefit tremendously from vassalizing other tomb kings.

If you take another tomb king capital, you have to grow it to tier 5 and invest heavily in it to get access to three tier 5 constructs.

If you vassalize them you can build an outpost and use allied recruiting to possibly work around your caps.

Vassalising would also effectively raise your army limit

Passthechips#4366

Honestly the vassal system has a lot of untapped potential in terms of potential diplomacy/benefits/mechanics that could be created.

I’d much rather CA work on fixing and improving vassals than giving confederation to factions that don’t need it.

b_took#1657

Passthechips said:

I’d much rather CA work on fixing and improving vassals than giving confederation to factions that don’t need it.

1,000 times this.

Commissar_G#7535

b_took said:

Passthechips said:

I’d much rather CA work on fixing and improving vassals than giving confederation to factions that don’t need it.

1,000 times this.

Thinking TK don’t need confederation after watching them do **** nothing in the desert for 4 years might be the worst opinion in the forums.

Nyxilis#3646

Commissar_G said:

b_took said:

Passthechips said:

I’d much rather CA work on fixing and improving vassals than giving confederation to factions that don’t need it.

1,000 times this.

Thinking TK don’t need confederation after watching them do **** nothing in the desert for 4 years might be the worst opinion in the forums.

Ya know, I don't like when those other factions do something just because of confederation. And TK's issues largely stem from AR values and economy issues. And I certainly don't support allowing confederation of Arkhan.

Commissar_G#7535

Nyxilis said:

Commissar_G said:

b_took said:

Passthechips said:

I’d much rather CA work on fixing and improving vassals than giving confederation to factions that don’t need it.

1,000 times this.

Thinking TK don’t need confederation after watching them do **** nothing in the desert for 4 years might be the worst opinion in the forums.

Ya know, I don't like when those other factions do something just because of confederation. And TK's issues largely stem from AR values and economy issues. And I certainly don't support allowing confederation of Arkhan.

Do you know how their unit cap works?

Commissar_G#7535

Saying TK don’t need confederation when the units they can recruit are directly locked behind territory is asinine. They actually need it MORE than the other races. Vassalisation will make them worse, hilariously.

Neodeinos#5871

Nyxilis said:

Commissar_G said:

b_took said:

Passthechips said:

I’d much rather CA work on fixing and improving vassals than giving confederation to factions that don’t need it.

1,000 times this.

Thinking TK don’t need confederation after watching them do **** nothing in the desert for 4 years might be the worst opinion in the forums.

Ya know, I don't like when those other factions do something just because of confederation. And TK's issues largely stem from AR values and economy issues. And I certainly don't support allowing confederation of Arkhan.

A big problem is also their AI personnality. Tomb King AI is very passive so obviously it does nothing to expand its territory.

Passthechips#4366

Commissar_G said:

Saying TK don’t need confederation when the units they can recruit are directly locked behind territory is asinine. They actually need it MORE than the other races. Vassalisation will make them worse, hilariously.

You could easily grant unit cap bonuses, and even bonus armies based on the number of Vassals you have. There are a lot of creative solutions to be had that don’t rely on confederation.

Vassalisation can’t make them worse if that’s the system they currently have.

IamNotArobot#8850

basically this https://youtu.be/LvDa21y4th8

The beastmen mechanic and you only get one extra army (the one with thr main lord)

Commissar_G#7535

Passthechips said:

Commissar_G said:

Saying TK don’t need confederation when the units they can recruit are directly locked behind territory is asinine. They actually need it MORE than the other races. Vassalisation will make them worse, hilariously.

You could easily grant unit cap bonuses, and even bonus armies based on the number of Vassals you have. There are a lot of creative solutions to be had that don’t rely on confederation.

Vassalisation can’t make them worse if that’s the system they currently have.

Or just let them confederate like everyone else.

Passthechips#4366

Commissar_G said:

Passthechips said:

Commissar_G said:

Saying TK don’t need confederation when the units they can recruit are directly locked behind territory is asinine. They actually need it MORE than the other races. Vassalisation will make them worse, hilariously.

You could easily grant unit cap bonuses, and even bonus armies based on the number of Vassals you have. There are a lot of creative solutions to be had that don’t rely on confederation.

Vassalisation can’t make them worse if that’s the system they currently have.

Or just let them confederate like everyone else.

Nah kind of a boring easy mode, especially for the TK. I’d rather a more in-depth Vassal system any day.

Commissar_G#7535

Neodeinos said:

Nyxilis said:

Commissar_G said:

b_took said:

Passthechips said:

I’d much rather CA work on fixing and improving vassals than giving confederation to factions that don’t need it.

1,000 times this.

Thinking TK don’t need confederation after watching them do **** nothing in the desert for 4 years might be the worst opinion in the forums.

Ya know, I don't like when those other factions do something just because of confederation. And TK's issues largely stem from AR values and economy issues. And I certainly don't support allowing confederation of Arkhan.

A big problem is also their AI personnality. Tomb King AI is very passive so obviously it does nothing to expand its territory.

I was playing Teclis once, and sent an agent at around turn 40 to go get trade with the TK.

For the next 100 turns I watched Settra and Numas both send 4 stacks of skeletons at each other every 5 turns over, and over, and over again. Neither of them being able to make a genuine dent in the others forces to actually take a city.

It was truly eye opening for me.

Passthechips#4366

Commissar_G said:

Neodeinos said:

Nyxilis said:

Commissar_G said:

b_took said:

Passthechips said:

I’d much rather CA work on fixing and improving vassals than giving confederation to factions that don’t need it.

1,000 times this.

Thinking TK don’t need confederation after watching them do **** nothing in the desert for 4 years might be the worst opinion in the forums.

Ya know, I don't like when those other factions do something just because of confederation. And TK's issues largely stem from AR values and economy issues. And I certainly don't support allowing confederation of Arkhan.

A big problem is also their AI personnality. Tomb King AI is very passive so obviously it does nothing to expand its territory.

I was playing Teclis once, and sent an agent at around turn 40 to go get trade with the TK.

For the next 100 turns I watched Settra and Numas both send 4 stacks of skeletons at each other every 5 turns over, and over, and over again. Neither of them being able to make a genuine dent in the others forces to actually take a city.

It was truly eye opening for me.

Supposedly CA are changing something about Settra/TK so he’s the head honcho of the desert and can stand up to Skarbrand. I do believe they’re also changing their relations to other nations so they’re a lot more aggressive.

It will be interesting to see how that plays out.

b_took#1657

Commissar_G said:

Saying TK don’t need confederation when the units they can recruit are directly locked behind territory is asinine. They actually need it MORE than the other races. Vassalisation will make them worse, hilariously.

Most factions have their units directly locked behind territory, unless you give them some sort of cheat where they don't have to pay to recruit the units or maintain them. Or lots of extra gold income.

Gee, I wonder if the AI ever gets cheats. Maybe the Tomb King AI should get cheats like all the other factions.

Yeesh.

The exceptions are those factions that are meant to raze things rather than claim territory, and even they have to be constantly capturing territory in order to purchase the units.

So the difference between the Tomb Kings and every other faction is that, whereas the Tomb Kings have to fight a lot of battles to field better units, other factions have to . . . fight a lot of battles to field better units.

Unless the actual difference is something like rate of growth and and the expense of creating new buildings, but you've already dismissed the argument that the economy is the problem. Good job!

Sir_Godspeed#8395

It was always silly to apply the idea of "I do not serve" which is SETTRA SPECIFIC to all Tomb Kings, many of whom EXPLICITLY SERVE Settra.

Captain_Rex#1635

Goatforce said:

Recruit Defeated LLs is the way

This

doclumbago#6250

Goatforce said:

Recruit Defeated LLs is the way

yeah that mod made TK and Vampirates so much more enjoyable.

The no confed-rule is just CA saying "oh there is a ton of tricky stuff we don't want to deal with"
also it will increase the total hours played on steam when you have to play every LL on their own campaign.