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i wonder if they did the same to sisters of slaughter since they also use whips and are "defenders"
They did not based upon the IE build these stats were taken from. Thankfully.
@DaBoyzAreBackInTown The thing is with this low WS and lack of AP even armor 30 removes a 5th of the units damage. They're not even effectively able to get value in trades with low armor units because they deal completely negligible damage. The units were definitely re-imagined, it's just the role they were placed in is just bad. If you gave them a much higher WS (like 60 for the Chosen) or a low AP ratio they'd perform much better but even then you'd probably pass on them for the sword and board.
And that is considering Charge Reflection which is quite strong. For most halberds your reward is 20 extra AP damage which is massive. Even for the 375 Cathay peasants the result is an extra 6 AP damage. Getting no AP at all from charge reflection really undercuts it's value as a damage source against all but the most flimsy targets.
Yea, I'm not fully sure how it will work (or if it will work) but I like the concept.
Slaneesh should be the faction that pushes the hit and run element to the extreme and giving them an absurdly tanky holding unit that you can micro all your cav/Chariots around does that in a pretty unique way.
These guys look tankier than Ironbreakers and then ITP on top which is pretty beefy. I don't think they are intended to be damage dealers in most situations, Slaneesh has plenty of stuff on the roster to do that with.
But if the WS did need to be bumped up a bit I don't think it'd be a problem. But retaining Slaneesh faction identity as being about hit and runs and surrounds for damage is good for gameplay over giving them tanky damage dealing infantry imo. That is more the realm of Khorne and WoC.
We talk about chosen but the reasoning is the same with warriors. The sword and board ones are a 100 less gold with good resilience and decent damage. Why paying a more expensive unit if you lose a ton of damage just for some md and defensive traits that wont be used well in a rush roster. I’ll rather have a rework that make them a support unit who use a torture tool. The most basic could be a LD debuff. A funnier one, which may be harder to do, would be a progressive debuff (using the intensity system?) that makes the enemy progressively take more damage from all melee sources. It would help the unit dps overtime despite it having no ap but also give a synergy with devastating flanker units who will come later and deal some nice additional damage. In other words the more they whip, the better it gets.
But is talking about what is appropriate to talk about in this thread appropriate to be talked about in this thread ?
10% phys resist with the mark of Slaanesh needs to be removed.
The 0AP thing must be an error, that can't have been an informed balancing decision... Surely... Surely not...
Then mark of slaneesh needs to just cost +25 or just free as slaneesh asyysmetry ,aside from itp on marauders there is nothing really to be gained from it.,unlike nurgle who gets same health you can atleast counter by magic damage.
Speed and ITP are excellent on a unit such as chosen, worth more than 25 but certainly not worth as much as currently being charged for the addition of phys resist as well.
Give them respectable AP, speed and ITP and charge 100 more than normal and it's a solid unit if a little boring
so i don't dislike the idea of uunit,but if they are going to have 0 ap,they should come with an improved poison effect and MD around 80 to be worth 1400-1500g,a unit that basically excels at holding forever in melee
I was thinking the same but they did add "the weak against armor" trait and for all Hellscourges units. 0 AP damage on a 1600 gold unit makes absolutely no sense!
Lots of things have weak vs armor Dryads being weak against armor is 29 dmg 5 ap. So less than 20%.
These chosens should have at least 36 dmg 8 ap. Which again, is frikking stupid when swordsman do a 7 ap.
They r clearly the successor of trash guards. Only thing left is to figure out a nice name so it rhyme with their newly acquired status. Cant quite figure out a name yet, chosens of slothness? gotta find a nice name for this garbage
Lots of things have weak vs armor Dryads being weak against armor is 29 dmg 5 ap. So less than 20%.
Sure but they confirmed that all marauders with hellscourges have 0 AP during the tournament and we have already seen the FLC units, the Warriors of Chaos Hellscourges have 0 AP.
They r clearly the successor of trash guards. Only thing left is to figure out a nice name so it rhyme with their newly acquired status. Cant quite figure out a name yet, chosens of slothness? gotta find a nice name for this garbage
You know what ? I am pretty sure they actually lose against Depth guard.
The current ultimate anvil is the ironbreakers : 34 MA 66 MD 32 WS with 10 AP damage + blasting charges
and for 1250 gold.
And you know what, the ironbreakers won against Chosen Trash scourges even without using their blasting charges : Ironbreakers : hit chance=34+35-65 capped at 10%, damage=0.9*(10+2.2))=11 trash scourges: hit chace=44+35-66=13%, damage=3
I have to assume this is a bug, no elite infantry unit should have such low AP. Opposite bug happened with khepra guard. SOmehow they ended up getting the ethereal treatment with 100%AP and frostbite despite never being an ethereal unit, like they confused them with the campaign exclusive nehekara warrior ROR.
I have to assume this is a bug, no elite infantry unit should have such low AP. Opposite bug happened with khepra guard. SOmehow they ended up getting the ethereal treatment with 100%AP and frostbite despite never being an ethereal unit, like they confused them with the campaign exclusive nehekara warrior ROR.
So Khepra guard went from 21% AP to 100% AP ? I am thinking they had to use some intern as a workforce for balancing to release IE quickly as RoC was bad.
I have to assume this is a bug, no elite infantry unit should have such low AP. Opposite bug happened with khepra guard. SOmehow they ended up getting the ethereal treatment with 100%AP and frostbite despite never being an ethereal unit, like they confused them with the campaign exclusive nehekara warrior ROR.
Its not low ap lol. Low ap would imply they even have 1 to begin with. Its 0 ap.
They should have at least 10 AP damage like the ironbreakers. But the ironbreakers also have blasting charges and cost 1250 so even with 10 AP they will be subpar at 1600 gold.
in theory having good anvils should be quite valuable for slaanesh. I'm not saying they are correclty priced for their tankiness, but tanky units are very useful when you have glasscannon super fast cav.
By logic of marauders they should having 70-75md or mostly non ap, increased damage.
The reworked the game 3 Hellscourges to the new system, which means lowering MD and WS (which incidentally made the units less desirable; notice how much less we saw them in the IE tournament). The Chosen stats make sense with this new context, it's just that the new context looks pretty bad.
@Loupi_ I'd be more inclined to agree if they didn't retroactively go back and change older units to match the new system. It's either an experimental change or intended as it's showing up on at least 3 units (probably 4 but I haven't seen the new Hellscourge marauders in play yet).
How is it even possible for a unit to have 0 ap, what kind of moronic design is that, even art crew have ap. Its clearly just an inferior chosen, whatever perks they got if they have 0 ap they r a useless unit. Ap is the main source of dmg against armoured unit.
To be really really really optimistic based of the available info, their fair price would be around $1350 just coz of that phy resist. Those charge def is just pointless on a faction without range.
If they r indeed $1600 gold, guess whose the successor of trash guard lol Easy fix tho, restore ap, cut -$250. So basically a chosen, paying $100 for some garbage faction mismatch traits, shuld be quite close to true value +-$50 ish there onwards
1600 gold is already confirmed for this trash unit (bottom left next to 1450 bringers of beguilement):
I have to assume this is a bug, no elite infantry unit should have such low AP. Opposite bug happened with khepra guard. SOmehow they ended up getting the ethereal treatment with 100%AP and frostbite despite never being an ethereal unit, like they confused them with the campaign exclusive nehekara warrior ROR.
I knew they got frostbite for some reason but 100% ap as well? Bruh they're gonna butcher even black orcs then
Has someone seen their official AP ratio in a video showing units ? Edit : yes confirmed by Turin
Ladies and gentlement I present to you the worst unit of total war warhammer 3 : Chosen Hellscourges in all their glory :
You thought Depht Guard was trash in WH 2 ? Think again as we have here the winner all competition, the 1600 gold trash hellscourges with 0 AP damage.
They are so bad that it will be interesting and funny to make a video meme " can they lose against ?" with : -black orcs -ironbreakers -hammerers -bestigors -greatswords -grave guard GW -silverin guard -savage orcs
Except marauders there isn't a singel chaos warrior or Chosen mortal marked unit that is better than undivided version.
You can talk all fluff about strider,diverstiy...etc But Unit Cost effectiveness is King,Look at how norsca just had 75% winrate why ? because berserkers and skin wolves are very cost effective,Same with Cryppt horrors and skeleton infantry,questing knights in their heyday..etc
I have been with this game since WH1,the extra fluff haven't once helped in matches its always about bringing cost effective units in battle.
Except marauders there isn't a singel chaos warrior or Chosen mortal marked unit that is better than undivided version.
You can talk all fluff about strider,diverstiy...etc But Unit Cost effectiveness is King,Look at how norsca just had 75% winrate why ? because berserkers and skin wolves are very cost effective,Same with Cryppt horrors and skeleton infantry,questing knights in their heyday..etc
I have been with this game since WH1,the extra fluff haven't once helped in matches its always about bringing cost effective units in battle.
Do you think trash hellscourges can win the crown of the worst cost effective unit in the game ?
Except marauders there isn't a singel chaos warrior or Chosen mortal marked unit that is better than undivided version.
You can talk all fluff about strider,diverstiy...etc But Unit Cost effectiveness is King,Look at how norsca just had 75% winrate why ? because berserkers and skin wolves are very cost effective,Same with Cryppt horrors and skeleton infantry,questing knights in their heyday..etc
I have been with this game since WH1,the extra fluff haven't once helped in matches its always about bringing cost effective units in battle.
Do you think trash hellscourges can win the crown of the worst cost effective unit in the game ?
Depends can they do their job in a land battle and hold for a incredibly long time while rest of the army can cycle charge.
Except marauders there isn't a singel chaos warrior or Chosen mortal marked unit that is better than undivided version.
You can talk all fluff about strider,diverstiy...etc But Unit Cost effectiveness is King,Look at how norsca just had 75% winrate why ? because berserkers and skin wolves are very cost effective,Same with Cryppt horrors and skeleton infantry,questing knights in their heyday..etc
I have been with this game since WH1,the extra fluff haven't once helped in matches its always about bringing cost effective units in battle.
Do you think trash hellscourges can win the crown of the worst cost effective unit in the game ?
Depends can they do their job in a land battle and hold for a incredibly long time while rest of the army can cycle charge.
Characters can goon ..etc.?
Nope always better to bring spawns or regular chaos warriors to hold the line. And for elite units, Ironbreakers will hold the line much better (and have also blasting charges) for 350 gold less, even regular Nurgle Chosen will hold the line better with same MD, more health, and poison atck :
Except marauders there isn't a singel chaos warrior or Chosen mortal marked unit that is better than undivided version.
You can talk all fluff about strider,diverstiy...etc But Unit Cost effectiveness is King,Look at how norsca just had 75% winrate why ? because berserkers and skin wolves are very cost effective,Same with Cryppt horrors and skeleton infantry,questing knights in their heyday..etc
I have been with this game since WH1,the extra fluff haven't once helped in matches its always about bringing cost effective units in battle.
Do you think trash hellscourges can win the crown of the worst cost effective unit in the game ?
Depends can they do their job in a land battle and hold for a incredibly long time while rest of the army can cycle charge.
Characters can goon ..etc.?
Nope always better to bring spawns or regular chaos warriors to hold the line. And for elite units, Ironbreakers will hold the line much better (and have also blasting charges) for 350 gold less, even regular Nurgle Chosen will hold the line better with same MD, more health, and poison atck :
First i think we have to exclude them from woc roster because form Mp stand points they are weird.
You can only have 4 marked units ..etc.
I don't care about best in class slot but them being so much
More expensive than iron breakers factoring in dwarfs inability to go on the offensive seems bad
I think these could do with price reduction. How much i don't know but we can start with 200 gold see were it goes in the slaanesh roster.
As for zero Ap i Don't know what they changed in war 3 to even have that be possible. CA LITERALLY had to make the clones of eshin triads ..etc have 0 Md so they wouldn't do damage in war 2
As for zero Ap i Don't know what they changed in war 3 to even have that be possible. CA LITERALLY had to make the clones of eshin triads ..etc have 0 Md so they wouldn't do damage in war 2
Even Ironbreakers have 10 AP damage. Sisters of slaughter using whips have 11 AP damage and Hellstriders with hellscourges have also AP damage so in terms of coherence it does not make any sense. Same weapon but sometimes you give AP damage sometimes you don't...well not touching Slaanesh roster before this is fixed. They already have terrible chariots with exalted seekers chariots (second worst cost effective unit in the game ,) and hellflayers and now 3 more units unplayable : Chaos warriors hellscourges, marauders hellscourges and Chosen hellscourges. Gonna do a Festus campaign. Nurgle seems the strongest monogod from Land battle POV.
Except marauders there isn't a singel chaos warrior or Chosen mortal marked unit that is better than undivided version.
You can talk all fluff about strider,diverstiy...etc But Unit Cost effectiveness is King,Look at how norsca just had 75% winrate why ? because berserkers and skin wolves are very cost effective,Same with Cryppt horrors and skeleton infantry,questing knights in their heyday..etc
I have been with this game since WH1,the extra fluff haven't once helped in matches its always about bringing cost effective units in battle.
Do you think trash hellscourges can win the crown of the worst cost effective unit in the game ?
1600 gold for that,i don't think we have see any worst unit than this in trilogy,Even Bloated Corpse have their uses.
Except marauders there isn't a singel chaos warrior or Chosen mortal marked unit that is better than undivided version.
You can talk all fluff about strider,diverstiy...etc But Unit Cost effectiveness is King,Look at how norsca just had 75% winrate why ? because berserkers and skin wolves are very cost effective,Same with Cryppt horrors and skeleton infantry,questing knights in their heyday..etc
I have been with this game since WH1,the extra fluff haven't once helped in matches its always about bringing cost effective units in battle.
Do you think trash hellscourges can win the crown of the worst cost effective unit in the game ?
1600 gold for that,i don't think we have see any worst unit than this in trilogy,Even Bloated Corpse have their uses.
You are right sir ! They are so bad I expect lot of meme videos with them.
Comments
The 0AP thing must be an error, that can't have been an informed balancing decision... Surely... Surely not...
- Report
3 · 2Disagree 3AgreeSlaneesh should be the faction that pushes the hit and run element to the extreme and giving them an absurdly tanky holding unit that you can micro all your cav/Chariots around does that in a pretty unique way.
These guys look tankier than Ironbreakers and then ITP on top which is pretty beefy. I don't think they are intended to be damage dealers in most situations, Slaneesh has plenty of stuff on the roster to do that with.
But if the WS did need to be bumped up a bit I don't think it'd be a problem. But retaining Slaneesh faction identity as being about hit and runs and surrounds for damage is good for gameplay over giving them tanky damage dealing infantry imo. That is more the realm of Khorne and WoC.
- Report
0 · 2Disagree AgreeI’ll rather have a rework that make them a support unit who use a torture tool. The most basic could be a LD debuff. A funnier one, which may be harder to do, would be a progressive debuff (using the intensity system?) that makes the enemy progressively take more damage from all melee sources. It would help the unit dps overtime despite it having no ap but also give a synergy with devastating flanker units who will come later and deal some nice additional damage.
In other words the more they whip, the better it gets.
- Report
1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeGive them respectable AP, speed and ITP and charge 100 more than normal and it's a solid unit if a little boring
- Report
1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree 2AgreeDryads being weak against armor is 29 dmg 5 ap. So less than 20%.
These chosens should have at least 36 dmg 8 ap. Which again, is frikking stupid when swordsman do a 7 ap.
They r clearly the successor of trash guards. Only thing left is to figure out a nice name so it rhyme with their newly acquired status. Cant quite figure out a name yet, chosens of slothness? gotta find a nice name for this garbage
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
- Report
2 · Disagree 2AgreeDryads being weak against armor is 29 dmg 5 ap. So less than 20%.
Sure but they confirmed that all marauders with hellscourges have 0 AP during the tournament and we have already seen the FLC units, the Warriors of Chaos Hellscourges have 0 AP.
You know what ? I am pretty sure they actually lose against Depth guard.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeHell i think theyll even struggle vs greatswords or graves 2h
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
- Report
2 · Disagree 2Agree34 MA
66 MD
32 WS with 10 AP damage
+ blasting charges
and for 1250 gold.
And you know what, the ironbreakers won against Chosen Trash scourges even without using their blasting charges :
Ironbreakers : hit chance=34+35-65 capped at 10%, damage=0.9*(10+2.2))=11
trash scourges: hit chace=44+35-66=13%, damage=3
- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
7 · Disagree 7AgreeI am thinking they had to use some intern as a workforce for balancing to release IE quickly as RoC was bad.
- Report
1 · Disagree 1AgreeIts 0 ap.
Top #3 Leaderboard on Warhammer Totalwar.
- Report
3 · Disagree 3AgreeBut the ironbreakers also have blasting charges and cost 1250 so even with 10 AP they will be subpar at 1600 gold.
- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree@Loupi_ I'd be more inclined to agree if they didn't retroactively go back and change older units to match the new system. It's either an experimental change or intended as it's showing up on at least 3 units (probably 4 but I haven't seen the new Hellscourge marauders in play yet).
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeEdit : yes confirmed by Turin
Ladies and gentlement I present to you the worst unit of total war warhammer 3 : Chosen Hellscourges in all their glory :
You thought Depht Guard was trash in WH 2 ? Think again as we have here the winner all competition, the 1600 gold trash hellscourges with 0 AP damage.
They are so bad that it will be interesting and funny to make a video meme " can they lose against ?" with :
-black orcs
-ironbreakers
-hammerers
-bestigors
-greatswords
-grave guard GW
-silverin guard
-savage orcs
- Report
3 · Disagree 3AgreeYou can talk all fluff about strider,diverstiy...etc But Unit Cost effectiveness is King,Look at how norsca just had 75% winrate why ? because berserkers and skin wolves are very cost effective,Same with Cryppt horrors and skeleton infantry,questing knights in their heyday..etc
I have been with this game since WH1,the extra fluff haven't once helped in matches its always about bringing cost effective units in battle.
- Report
2 · Disagree 2Agree- Report
3 · Disagree 3AgreeCharacters can goon ..etc.?
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeAnd for elite units, Ironbreakers will hold the line much better (and have also blasting charges) for 350 gold less, even regular Nurgle Chosen will hold the line better with same MD, more health, and poison atck :
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeYou can only have 4 marked units ..etc.
I don't care about best in class slot but them being so much
More expensive than iron breakers factoring in dwarfs inability to go on the offensive seems bad
I think these could do with price reduction. How much i don't know but we can start with 200 gold see were it goes in the slaanesh roster.
As for zero Ap i Don't know what they changed in war 3 to even have that be possible. CA LITERALLY had to make the clones of eshin triads ..etc have 0 Md so they wouldn't do damage in war 2
#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
- Report
1 · Disagree 1AgreeEven Ironbreakers have 10 AP damage. Sisters of slaughter using whips have 11 AP damage and Hellstriders with hellscourges have also AP damage so in terms of coherence it does not make any sense. Same weapon but sometimes you give AP damage sometimes you don't...well not touching Slaanesh roster before this is fixed.
They already have terrible chariots with exalted seekers chariots (second worst cost effective unit in the game ,) and hellflayers and now 3 more units unplayable : Chaos warriors hellscourges, marauders hellscourges and Chosen hellscourges.
Gonna do a Festus campaign. Nurgle seems the strongest monogod from Land battle POV.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree 2AgreeThey are so bad I expect lot of meme videos with them.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree