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I think contact effects bring their own redundancy issues within the roster and have some serious balance concerns as well. Contact effects are already very prevalent for Slaanesh making the design space cluttered and making an effect enticing enough to pick up a 1600 cost unit without it being broken on the 525 cost version seems difficult. Beyond that stacking contact effects is already very strong for the faction. I fear adding more will create some unexpected and uninteractive play patterns. Plus the sensory manipulation theme is already really well covered.
I don't see any redundancy for a contact leadership debuff (except Azazel blade) in Slaanesh roster. By adjusting the strenght of the effect it could be perfectly viable on 525 marauders. Let's say, Chosen get a -8 leadership contact effect, for marauders it could be -2 leadership. I don't think it will be broken or subject to excessive stacking. But further tests and vigilance should be required.
The current primary issue from a design perspective is that they're excessively redundant with S&B chosen. Both are primarily defensive and at their best vs low armour, so they'll generally be competing with each other to get picked.
Agreed. That's why I suggested in a previous post to make Hellscourges an offensive unit rather than defensive. The "always strike first" could be better implemented with a strong MA as it does not prevent other units to hit them but assures Hellscourges to hit their targets. Just giving them AP won't solve two problems : their redundancy with the S&B units and their weak statline for their cost. The "anvil" design position is already filled by S&B units (which are cheaper mind you) and there is no good solution to circumvent this problem if the "anvil" design of the Hellscourges is kept. Reducing their CB or giving them 0 CB is not recommended as first it will increase artificially the duration to kill chaff like zombies (nobody wants to brace before zombies to be more cost-efficient) and second it does not make sense from a design point of view (same armour, same mass, same speed as S&B Chosen but less CB is a nonsense). So in any case one of the two units will be mostly dismissed as they compete for the same role. Maybe you have better ideas than I have to make Hellscourges unique and different from S&B but apart from changing the "anvil" design to an offensive one I really don't know what to do with them.
Even giving them AP (20%-25%), their statline will be on par with the regular 1250 gold Chosen. So there is also a matter of cost/statline.
We'll see tomorrow if CA has changed anything or giving them some AP damage but I keep my expectations low.
While a leadership contact effect isn't in Slaanesh directly, the idea of a faction stacking poison, charmed, musk, and then leadership debuffs begins to feel inelegant, at least to me. Mind you also Slaanesh gets a lot of buffs from low leadership enemies meaning such a contact effect, even is scaled and non-stacking, has a lot of annoying balance implications. Personally I also just think it's a touch lame.
On the second point I do think it's worth noting that "Always Strikes First" was actually both offensive and defensive. Killing units before they can attack stops attacks from landing and I do think the expert charge defense and charge reflection actually does a solid job of creating a circumstance where a unit gets an advantage at the beginning of combat. It's effectively both a buff for yourself and a debuff for your enemy from bracing. Compared to just higher MA or CB this does create a new and fairly interesting way to use the unit.
Having a variant you want to charge and a variant you want to brace isn't a bad idea if both do a solid amount of damage. Remember I want to cut CB and buff WS and AP resulting in higher damage from braced Hellscourges even against chaff units (and of course in sustained combat more generally). We can already observe for units like Halberds that charge reflection provides a damage boost comparable to charging so if the goal is to make the units have less overlap this seems fairly effective (sword and board are more offensive and need to charge to perform, Hellscourges are defensive and want to stay braced). And for variations in CB, CA does that all the time with weapon variations I see no reason to draw the line here.
I'm not sure the Chosen would be worth the current price, but trading all of the CB of the Hellscourges for the WS and AP ratio of the base Chosen would make the unit substantially stronger. The anvil design isn't silly because a defensive unit is a bad idea, it's because CA didn't make a defensive unit, they made a non-threatening one. A defensive unit that deals damage, one which neuters frontal charges would actually be quite interesting for Slaanesh when facing other melee factions.
But I do agree that CA's unlikely to have done anything about it by tomorrow. They still haven't fixed the cavalry speed issues so I think we're pretty locked in with this for at least a month and a half. Boo.
I'm not entirely sure how charge reflection works at this point. I don't think it has a decay like charge bonus, rather it just doubles WS against recently charged units for 7 seconds I believe. It's been a while since I looked into it though and I don't recall the details, but I do know it's a solid damage boost though only if your base stats would have proven effective against the target in question.
But I do agree that CA's unlikely to have done anything about it by tomorrow. They still haven't fixed the cavalry speed issues so I think we're pretty locked in with this for at least a month and a half. Boo.
What are the cavalry speed issues ?
I'm not entirely sure how charge reflection works at this point. I don't think it has a decay like charge bonus, rather it just doubles WS against recently charged units for 7 seconds I believe. It's been a while since I looked into it though and I don't recall the details, but I do know it's a solid damage boost though only if your base stats would have proven effective against the target in question.
Thanks anyway! I will look into it and investigate. As Hellscourges currently have no AP it would be better to test that against light armored infantry/cav and evaluate the differences with and without charge relfection in terms of damage output (but in both cases with the expert charge defense trait on).
"Mortal blows" implies the attacks are lethal as well as painful. Doing no ap damage seems pretty far from that description wouldn't you say?
non-AP damage can still kill things. Again: making them deal more damage or having "low" AP (in the realm of dryads or ghouls, rather than sword units), I'd have no issue with. I'm not arguing for the unit to not deal damage. I'm saying that it being notably weak vs armour is fine and makes sense.
To the first point, I don't think there is any indication that the whips aren't the primary killing tools of the SoS (actually their weapons are never mentioned in the 8th ed. text), but even if there was I don't see the relevance. Hellscourges aren't normal whips and being as effective as a sword against armor is easily explainable. They're a Daemonic whip of Slaanesh, the god whose daemons tear through armor with crab claws and blade hands like it's nothing. Supernatural sharpness is a defining characteristic.
I think the fact that that their shields are bladed (which is very clearly depicted in their artwork and TT models) is actually a pretty strong indication that the whips are not really what they're using to actually kill people, especially people wearing armour.
Armour piercing is only a theme for daemons and mutated beings of Slaanesh, not the mortals, and it's because of the massive claws that can crush/cut armour along with the person in it; they wouldn't need to be particularly sharp to do the job. It's a bit of a misconception that Slaanesh is specialized in "supernatural sharpness". Not even Sigvald's sword, forged from a shard of the blade of Slaanesh himself, has any special property to make it more useful vs armour.
The ability to cut through armour with magical sharpness is actually pretty rare trait in lore; it's a defining characteristic of the Runefangs of the Empire and the Slayer of Kings (Archaon's sword). It's not something a random slaanesh warrior would have attached to the end of an apparently non-magical whip.
There isn't any clear reason to argue Hellscourges should be worse against armor from the text, simply no evidence to suggest they should be particularly effective against it.
there is no indication that Hellscourges kill slowly,
... 1. Every mention surrounding their use in lore (few as they are), ripping out throats and flensing flesh don't require particularly deep wounds, and are something that they can feasibly do without a particularly large amount of force. Also, just look at them; it'd be insane for them to be a useful weapon vs armour.
2. "prolong the agonising moment of death" Yes, they deal mortal wounds (obviously, they're a weapon being used to kill people), but generally not ones that lead to immediate death, because that'd run counter to the goal of causing as much agony as possible.
Players already take spears as a frontline over swordsmen on roster with both when they just want to hold, even against factions with limited large options. My suggested changes force Hellscourges into that role but make them quite good at the job. The trade off then becomes having the flexibility to go on the offensive with your infantry or fully sacrificing offensive power from charging to maximize holding potential. Is it a smaller difference than the other monogods get? Probably. Is it significant enough to warrant consideration? I think there is solid evidence that the answer is yes. Would it make the units at least worth the price? Definitely.
That's because of anti-large making the spear units perform drastically better in a common situation, while they perform only marginally worse vs infantry. Builds using spears as the front line typically include some missile units that can far more reliably answer infantry than the typically more mobile large units like cavalry. The role spears fill is generally important to the army composition. Rush armies typically do not run spear units at the front unless they have to or they need/want the anti-large.
That wouldn't at all be the case here, because 1. hellscourges aren't providing anti-large, 2. Slaanesh has no missile units to protect, rendering a unit that relies on being static and receiving a charge a LOT less useful, and 3. because they're an elite unit that costs 1600. Slaanesh has no way to force the opponent to engage the braced elite infantry from the front, which is something that often can be done with cheap spear units, especially when they're paired with missile units..
non-AP damage can still kill things. Again: making them deal more damage or having "low" AP (in the realm of dryads or ghouls, rather than sword units), I'd have no issue with. I'm not arguing for the unit to not deal damage. I'm saying that it being notably weak vs armour is fine and makes sense.
Low AP is in the realm of a 10-15% as opposed to 25, but crucially it's matched with 20-50% higher WS. On a unit with charge reflection which doubles damage rather than a focus on CB which inherits AP ratio I'm not actually sure there is much of a difference on the charge, though the follow up sustained combat would be slightly worse I suppose. Though again, there isn't a particularly compelling reason for why the Hellscourges should be worse here, other than personal interpretation.
I think the fact that that their shields are bladed (which is very clearly depicted in their artwork and TT models) is actually a pretty strong indication that the whips are not really what they're using to actually kill people, especially people wearing armour.
Armour piercing is only a theme for daemons and mutated beings of Slaanesh, not the mortals, and it's because of the massive claws that can crush/cut armour along with the person in it; they wouldn't need to be particularly sharp to do the job. It's a bit of a misconception that Slaanesh is specialized in "supernatural sharpness". Not even Sigvald's sword, forged from a shard of the blade of Slaanesh himself, has any special property to make it more useful vs armour.
The ability to cut through armour with magical sharpness is actually pretty rare trait in lore; it's a defining characteristic of the Runefangs of the Empire and the Slayer of Kings (Archaon's sword). It's not something a random slaanesh warrior would have attached to the end of an apparently non-magical whip.
On the first point you're reading a lot of intent into visuals in one instance, while ignoring them in another (big blunt metal shields being slammed into people work just fine to kill someone through armor, generally better than a blade). I don't think it's a particularly compelling line of reasoning.
The armor piercing theming you mention here is actually a bit inconsistent here. Depending on source sometimes mortals are very effective at bypassing armor saves and sometimes they get no special advantages, but a similar trend can be noticed with the Daemon units. I'd argue this has more to do with mechanics than lore, where you can find a whole host of examples of mortals cleaving through armor, some empowered by the Chaos Gods and some not. Hence my statement that while Slaanesh in general has a theme of sharpness and grace there isn't any evidence supporting Hellscourges as being particularly strong or weak against armor. The descriptions just aren't that specific.
On the specifics of the game rules around armor, I think there is a distinct difference between something flat out ignoring armor saves as a mechanic, and something that is a high enough strength to wound armored units consistently. Sigvald doesn't have a rule ignoring armor saves but he's strength 5, same as a whole host of characters who can easily carve through a fully armored knight. Given he also makes a lot of attacks and as strikes first it would be reasonable to interpret him as armor piercing. CA didn't choose to do so, though they've now given him armor sundering and multiple ways to juice his WS to such a high level that his AP ratio is inconsequential making the point somewhat moot.
I'm also curious how hellscourges shouldn't be interpreted as "magical"? They're semi-sentient daemonic whips that hunger for violence, the fact that they don't deal magic attacks in game terms seems to have little bearing on whether or not we could reasonably expect them to have a comparable armor piercing ratio to a broadsword.
... 1. Every mention surrounding their use in lore (few as they are), ripping out throats and flensing flesh don't require particularly deep wounds, and are something that they can feasibly do without a particularly large amount of force. Also, just look at them; it'd be insane for them to be a useful weapon vs armour.
2. "prolong the agonising moment of death" Yes, they deal mortal wounds (obviously, they're a weapon being used to kill people), but generally not ones that lead to immediate death, because that'd run counter to the goal of causing as much agony as possible.
1. By every mention we mean 1 right? I can't find a lot of text about Hellscourges 1 way or the other and while the text you quote does refer to ripping out throats and flensing flesh it makes no mention of armor. I can just say that in tabletop stats Hellscourges were not penalized against units with higher armor/toughness relative to any other weapon. In fact as for as 8th edition is concerned they were a flat upgrade. In AoS the claw spears have rend making them better against armor but that's not the same as Hellscourges being weak to armor, that's Slaanesh mutations being proficient at penetrating armor. Any idea that they should be weak against armor is coming from you, not from the text, something you yourself acknowledge by ending with "it'd be insane" comment. We're talking about a daemonic whip here and you're arguing against positive changes to a bad unit because you personally feel the weapon being average against armor is weird.
2. You can read "prolong the moment of death" a few different ways. You seem to be reading it as dealing wounds that will eventually result in death but not in immediate death. I'm reading that as wounds that kill someone in an instant (moment is singular) but do so while causing considerable agony. I've never read a description of warhammer combat that involves someone inflicting a large number of superficial wounds until someone just keels over. Slaanesh worshippers are like the inverse of Har Ganeth executioners, practicing a death blow not to deliver the fastest most efficient death, but the most painful one imaginable from a single blow. These aren't the butchers or Khorne, they're artists of sensation, killing beautifully and agonizingly. I'd look to descriptions of Sigvald's combat if you want an example. Graceful, quick, and elegant deathblows that non-the-less result in a painful passage for his victims.
That's because of anti-large making the spear units perform drastically better in a common situation, while they perform only marginally worse vs infantry. Builds using spears as the front line typically include some missile units that can far more reliably answer infantry than the typically more mobile large units like cavalry. The role spears fill is generally important to the army composition. Rush armies typically do not run spear units at the front unless they have to or they need/want the anti-large.
That wouldn't at all be the case here, because 1. hellscourges aren't providing anti-large, 2. Slaanesh has no missile units to protect, rendering a unit that relies on being static and receiving a charge a LOT less useful, and 3. because they're an elite unit that costs 1600. Slaanesh has no way to force the opponent to engage the braced elite infantry from the front, which is something that often can be done with cheap spear units, especially when they're paired with missile units..
1. Normally when spears are chosen over swords it's for price or MD. They're actually quite a bit worse than sword units in an infantry grind if you're talking about damage being inflicted (charge reflection has notably improved this) but if you're wanting to hold a line the higher MD makes them last longer and the charge defense against large provides protection from a monstrous infantry or cavalry charges from the front. The AL bonus is not the primary factor driving the selection of these units in these situations. Hence why rush armies don't bring spears. They're going to win the frontline engagement so they bring infantry units which they expect to perform well into infantry. They aren't worried about getting frontally charged by cavalry or monstrous infantry because they want to engage in melee quickly. Defensive stats are secondary to them.
2. Factions like Bretonnia (in theory) don't run infantry to protect missiles, they run infantry to act as an anvil for cavalry charges. That's the point of the Hellscourge unit being an anvil for Slaanesh, that they'll hold other units in place for chariots and cavalry. Neither AL nor missiles are necessary for an anvil unit to function and the Hellscourges negating all CB, having high MD, and being otherwise quite durable does allow them to fulfill this role. The fact that this will be stronger against rush factions than against missile factions isn't a knock against the unit, it's a demonstration of the different use cases. If you need to push forward and pin a unit in place go sword and board, if you want to receive a charge and set up an anvil go hellscourges. Pretty similar to the thinking you'd have when selecting between the other gods unit variants.
3. The reason they are bad for 1600 has nothing to do with Charge Defense or Charge Reflection. Cathay players have been running CDG in a game mode entirely focused around infantry for months because charge reflection and expert charge defense are just solid traits if they're attached to a unit that deals damage. 72 WS with 50 AP is good without the AL bonus at 1050. The issue all of the Hellscourges have is that they're lack of AP and low WS means they don't do enough damage to justify themselves. We've seen plenty of evidence that they're superior defensively to the sword and boards while braced, the issue is they just don't do damage.
Again, if you're aiming to chase down a melee faction you'll pick the sword and board, if you're fighting against a rush faction you'd consider the whips if they actually did damage because your opponent is going to chase you into melee. It's quite possible to make CA's paradigm functional, even if the paradigm itself is pretty silly, it's just a matter of properly balancing the units.
Mind you this also glosses over a lot of other advantages and disadvantages each unit brings. Charging even with 0 CB is a damage boost since it increases the total number of attacks made, having the ability to deny your opponent their charge bonus can be useful for zoning in and of itself since it may discourage your opponent from engaging against a faction that can easily out run their units, bracing functions on a per entity basis and activates quickly so you can cancel a move order or a charge into a brace if your micro is on point, etc. I'm not confident my suggestion would make the whips worthwhile additions to the roster, but I am confident it would make the units unique and functional without having to redesign anything. They're number changes and not even particularly complex ones. Match WS's, lower CB's, done.
I hope this hasn't come across as rude by the way, I think it's an interesting discussion and while I disagree with your suggestions I don't wish to imply that I think they are meritless, just less effective at reaching the desired goal.
Low AP is in the realm of a 10-15% as opposed to 25, but crucially it's matched with 20-50% higher WS.
Which is something I've noted would be fine. These guys blending chaff is something I'd have no issue with. I'd actually prefer that to them being a generalist unit that's sort of good at everything but is defensively specialized (that's what sword chosen already do). Giving them decent AP would also seem incredibly out of place due to the nature of their weapons.
Though again, there isn't a particularly compelling reason for why the Hellscourges should be worse here, other than personal interpretation.
Sure, it's "personal interpretation", but the only lore description we get of the weapon in WHF mentions use against the skin specifically twice (splitting skin and flensing flesh are two different ways of saying essentially the same thing), and the one in AoS is similar, but also mentions trapping people in place, which could be represented by some a contact effect reducing movement speed to make it so units can't disengage from hellscourges as easily, which may be a better option than reducing leadership to avoid buff stacking/leadership bomb issues and would be more acceptable on chaff. It'd still hold value on an elite unit because the elite unit holds longer, and a slow would help them tie up or draw attention from multiple units.
The TT games don't include any means for making a weapon specifically worse vs armour, and with how armour works, having no bonus is pretty awful against it as it is. A snotling, warhound, or even a rat was no worse against armour than a dwarf or a Gor, and that's still the case in AoS.
I'd look to descriptions of Sigvald's combat if you want an example. Graceful, quick, and elegant deathblows that non-the-less result in a painful passage for his victims.
They're mentioned as being used against skin specifically twice in the one sentence. Getting your skin sliced off is incredibly painful, but it's not the sort of wound that's going to kill you quickly, nor is it any measure of beautiful. It's a form of torture, and the wielders are specifically noted as drawing their pleasure from inflicting that agony.
Sigvald uses a rapier, and he kills his opponents with hardly any bloodshed, because beauty, his vanity and narcissism, is his devotion to Slaanesh, and he views an act that would stain his visage with blood as abhorrent. He's a completely different case from someone cutting off the skin of their opponent and/or tearing their flesh apart with a hooked/barbed whip in battle because they get off on inflicting pain. It's not something Sigvald would do, but it is rather explicitly what hellscourge wielding hellstriders do, according to what little lore we do get about them. It is not the goal of hellstriders (and by extension other units) wielding hellscourges to kill quickly or beautifully. If it were, they'd use a different weapon that is actually capable of reliably delivering a quick death with minimal bloodshed.
Normally when spears are chosen over swords it's for price or MD.
Yes, sometimes it's for the MD and charge defense, but that's also for generally fairly low LD chaff that break super quickly and usually in missile factions that can easily concentrate fire on the unit they're pinning in place, or otherwise in builds that are taking a minimal investment in infantry and just want it to last as long as possible for that minimal investment. For such units, those 5-20 extra seconds are more important than trading a bit more efficiently on their own. Elite infantry doesn't usually mix well with such builds, and when you have a unit winning a fight anyway, you generally want it to do so as quickly as possible, even if it means trading a bit less efficiently, especially for a melee faction, which is a large part of why forsaken were typically favored over shielded chaos warriors in WH1/2.
I's a lot easier to get value out of that melee defense/charge defense when you can spread it across a wider front line - again, this is why it's much less of a problem for the marauders/warriors than for Chosen to simply be specialized for defense/holding. By running wider, you can pin down more units and thus have more flank/rear targets for your more mobile elements or keep more units off of your back line. Increasing the holding time against more elite units by 25% or so is a lot less relevant for other elite units that probably win the fight on their own anyway.
Factions like Bretonnia (in theory) don't run infantry to protect missiles
Basically every bretonnian build runs at least 4 archers, and the infantry is always used to defend them. That infantry also costs 150-325 funds, or 450 if you want the AP from halberds, and has extremely low leadership and poor armour. Which comes back to the chaff point.
The reason they are bad for 1600 has nothing to do with Charge Defense or Charge Reflection. Cathay players have been running CDG in a game mode entirely focused around infantry for months because charge reflection and expert charge defense are just solid traits if they're attached to a unit that deals damage.
CDG are also AP, anti-large, and the only option for elite Cathay infantry out of only 4 different infantry units. There's not exactly a lot of choice there. Imagine Cathay had another infantry that cost 150 less but lost only charge defense/reflect and a bit of melee defense. Which would see play? Do that again, but with neither unit having anti-large. How would you give both units a place? They're also in a roster designed to box with missile units due to their harmony mechanic, making that charge defense more valuable than for most other factions.
That's sort of the situation with Hellscourges vs S&B if they're given normal AP as a means of making them better, except in a faction that has no missile units to defend and bring the opponent to them to increase the value of the more defensive unit and without them being anti-large. It'd likely render them even more useless in the context of the roster than the current version with no AP damage (provided the current version is at least given some kind of buff to perform relatively better vs light troops).
after a 12 minutes long engagement they did lose against unidivided S&B Chosen at 1250 gold after an average damage of 1130
Against Swordmasters they did an average of 772 damage before losing
Against Slaanesh S&B Chosen they did an average of 1010 damage
As their statline seemed to indicate they are almost exactly at the same performance than regular undivided S&B Chosen at 1250 gold. So they need either a statline buff with AP damage, a cost reduction or an entirely rework.
Sure, it's "personal interpretation", but the only lore description we get of the weapon in WHF mentions use against the skin specifically twice (splitting skin and flensing flesh are two different ways of saying essentially the same thing), and the one in AoS is similar, but also mentions trapping people in place, which could be represented by some a contact effect reducing movement speed to make it so units can't disengage from hellscourges as easily, which may be a better option than reducing leadership to avoid buff stacking/leadership bomb issues and would be more acceptable on chaff. It'd still hold value on an elite unit because the elite unit holds longer, and a slow would help them tie up or draw attention from multiple units.
You know, just running with this idea of giving them a snare, add to it a loose formation so their unit can take up more physical space. With the Charge Defense and Reflection I don't think they'd suffer receiving a charge unlike most units with loose formation and it fits with the long reach of their whips allowing them to each threaten a larger space individually. It would also as a side benefit make them even more resistant to archer fire adding to their tankienes.
after a 12 minutes long engagement they did lose against unidivided S&B Chosen at 1250 gold after an average damage of 1130
Against Swordmasters they did an average of 772 damage before losing
Against Slaanesh S&B Chosen they did an average of 1010 damage
As their statline seemed to indicate they are almost exactly at the same performance than regular undivided S&B Chosen at 1250 gold. So they need either a statline buff with AP damage, a cost reduction or an entirely rework.
That all would be fine... If they actually excelled at killing anything else.
But its not like they're gaining some great ability to blend infantry... or large entities... or bringing any special utility.
They are somewhat more tanky but... not that much.
I'm still in the camp of just make the Spear "n" Board infantry with a normal Spear "n" Board Damage, AP, and BvL profile. Besides it goes with Slaanesh's Hoplite theme.
60 MA 56 MD 46 WS (with 11 AP damage) +discouraged effect on contact (-16 leadership) and remove their expert charge defense and charge reflection abilities
I modded them with these stats and slight changes : I did not add any contact effect (leadership debuff or else) , let them their expert charge defense and charge reflection abilities, gave them 12 AP damage and reduced their CB to 16.
So the stats are :
60 MA (+ 16 MA) 56 MD (- 9 MD) 48 WS (with 12 AP damage) (-8 base damage, +12 AP damage ) 16 CB (-10 CB)
They perform really well now without being broken. They still lose against Khorne dual axe Chosen and against Hellforged but by bracing can beat Nurgle GW Chosen. Example against Bladesingers they did 1100 damage and received 1000 damage. So the main problem was their weak statline for their price.
I also notice that charge reflection bonus is actually stronger with a higher MA than MD. Charge reflection doubles WS during a short period but contrary to CB does not buff MA. Result the units do more damage if it hits its intended target. And with initial relative low MA of 44 (and 0 AP) giving weak hit chance, charge reflection was almost useless for the Hellscourges Chosen. Charge reflection is also much better on AP units.
By decreasing their Charge bonus from 26 ->16, they still keep their defensive "anvil" design. But overall they feel much better!
I still think the warriors and chosen version are over priced either way but I was very surprised by the chosen versions performance against exalted bloodletters in testing. Some of them had around 50% health left after killing them when bracing to start the engagement.
If they were same price as regular sword and board chosen in very rare niche circumstances I could see them being used in khorne matchup if they had a minor amount of ap instead of none.
I still think the warriors and chosen version are over priced either way but I was very surprised by the chosen versions performance against exalted bloodletters in testing. Some of them had around 50% health left after killing them when bracing to start the engagement.
If they were same price as regular sword and board chosen in very rare niche circumstances I could see them being used in khorne matchup if they had a minor amount of ap instead of none.
As of right now they are a downgrade to Slaanesh Chosen S&B and even inferior to the undivided S&B Chosen in performance. So actual price/performance would be around 1200 gold. But rather than cutting the price I would still make them an elite unit as intended in their design and buff their statline.
Does Slaanesh have more elite infantry lore wise ? Could we expect in a future DLC a more elite infantry or the Chosen is the "ultimate" unit infantry in the roster ?
Something along the line of -4 att -4 def on hit and -$300
Anyway they need such a massive buff that just cant be bothered talking about them really.
Its nice to have a successor to trash guard so in that sense they served their purpose
They don't need debuffs but buffs instead. Try them against regular undivided Chosen and other infantry units priced at 1200-1250. You'll see that they perform worse than these other units in most cases. Price wise related to performance Slaanesh Hellscourges Chosen is already at 1200-1250 gold. So if you put them at this price they absolutely don't need any debuffs. But I don't think it is a good idea to cut their price. Better to buff them instead.
If weak against armor is new design approach, then it should be made universal. Even then, a few points of AP should still be a thing, cause it skews everything without it to hilariously bad design.
With all do respect, I genuinely do not think you have any idea what you are talking about.
You first talk about attack speed, but that isn't a thing in TWW. Attack interval (which is longer for Hellscourges for the record see twwstats.com) just standardizes the number of attacks units make over a period of time. Basically, if it isn't an SEM it's going to attack at roughly the same rate, and for SEMs with weird animations attack interval and WS are scaled to produce consistent damage output with every other SEM (see Varghuls very low WS and Rogue Idols very high WS for examples of outliers). Units are designed and balanced so that you can predict performance from the stats listed on the unit card, trying to read extra performance into units is going to mislead you.
Second when you mention Hellscourges having support from other units, but this is a red herring. We're discussing individual unit performance and if your argument is that whips are good if other units deal with the armored enemies, why the heck am I paying a premium for the whips? If marauder horsemen or devoted marauders are doing some of the work what am I paying for?
Third, you note that other units would take a charge for Hellscourges, when their entire advantage over normal Chosen is expert charge defense and charge reflection. If you are charging a unit the sword and board version is just objectively better. The issue isn't that Chosen with whips are literally broken as a unit, it's that in all cases you would prefer to take a non-hellscourge variant over the hellscourge variant. 0 AP is terrible because even 30 armor means you're losing about 20% of your total damage output (also lower total WS means physical resistance also is a problem for them). They're almost comically bad as a unit design and no amount of support or micro makes them worth their ridiculous price. Mind you this is all hellscourge units, not just Chosen. You pay a premium for at best parity in performance which is always a waste of resources.
Get crushed by 1500 gold Khorne Chosen (dual axe) :
So everything is good or bad?
They seem to perform at first view between Tzeentch Chosen and Khorne so their price should be between. Currently they are better than before but still not worth their 1500 gold price. The Marked Chosen are still too expensive in my opinion. But do they fill a unique role in the Slaanesh roster compared to the regular Slaanesh Chosen ? No.
As a side note, I think however that the Slaanesh Warriors of Chaos with Hellscourges perform really well.
It's important to note that the Slaanesh Chosen seem to just be bad in the way all marked Chosen are, ie a bit overpriced for what they do. Previously Slaanesh Chosen (and really all of the Hellscourge variants) were uniquely bad above and beyond poor pricing for marks.
CA kind of acknowledged that in this patch when they dropped the Khorne Chosen (Dual Axes) by 150 cost, which for most units would be an insane buff. For the Khorne Chosen this still leaves them feeling kind of meh. For 1500 you can get the Hellforged Host after all which are nearly always a superior choice.
When judged by that standard the Hellscourge Chosen getting cut to 1500 and getting some AP brings them to just "ill advised" rather than "actively harmful" to a build. The Chosen and the Marauder variants might actually be fairly good given they're overpaying substantially less for their new stats. It's honestly possible that expert charge defense and charge reflection will be entirely worth the price hike for the lower tier units given how powerful that combination has proven over the lifespan of game three.
You sure those tests account for expert charge defense charge reflection and itp? Sounds like they’re a fair price at worst now.
Yes I did the tests in Glacial Lake as a defender with the Chosen braced. Advtantages are that they benefit from the expert charge defense/charge reflection bonus and they tire less quickly.
Charge reflection is very underwhelming and does very few damage for two reasons :
It lasts only 7s meaning only half time of charge bonus
It applies usually only to the first rank of entities. Contrary to a charge where several entities from deep ranks can be in contact with the other unit.
It's important to note that the Slaanesh Chosen seem to just be bad in the way all marked Chosen are, ie a bit overpriced for what they do. Previously Slaanesh Chosen (and really all of the Hellscourge variants) were uniquely bad above and beyond poor pricing for marks.
CA kind of acknowledged that in this patch when they dropped the Khorne Chosen (Dual Axes) by 150 cost, which for most units would be an insane buff. For the Khorne Chosen this still leaves them feeling kind of meh. For 1500 you can get the Hellforged Host after all which are nearly always a superior choice.
You are right. Chosen are still overpriced and underperforming for their cost. Prices are still very random among them. Slaanesh Chosen with Hellscourges should not be more expensive than regular Chosen with GW at 1450 gold given that they perform worst in almost any situation. For example Slaanesh Chosen with hellscourges lose against Swormasters whereas regular Chosen with GW win (barely)
I think they could also have a slight increase in WS.
It's important to note that the Slaanesh Chosen seem to just be bad in the way all marked Chosen are, ie a bit overpriced for what they do. Previously Slaanesh Chosen (and really all of the Hellscourge variants) were uniquely bad above and beyond poor pricing for marks.
CA kind of acknowledged that in this patch when they dropped the Khorne Chosen (Dual Axes) by 150 cost, which for most units would be an insane buff. For the Khorne Chosen this still leaves them feeling kind of meh. For 1500 you can get the Hellforged Host after all which are nearly always a superior choice.
You are right. Chosen are still overpriced and underperforming for their cost. Prices are still very random among them. Slaanesh Chosen with Hellscourges should not be more expensive than regular Chosen with GW at 1450 gold given that they perform worst in almost any situation. For example Slaanesh Chosen with hellscourges lose against Swormasters whereas regular Chosen with GW win (barely)
I think they could also have a slight increase in WS.
I don't think swordmasters are a good test here for demonstrating your point. They're an anti-infantry AP unit with extremely high MA (68 sustained), we'd expect them to perform extremely well into the whips and in particular this is one of the only match ups where swordmasters effective MA isn't insane overkill.
I still think the mark tax is garbage and agree with the suggestion marked chosen should be cheaper in general but this test is going to underestimate the whip Chosen's performance.
Comments
Does it double the WS then linearly decrease by 7% each second ?
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0 · Disagree AgreeOn the second point I do think it's worth noting that "Always Strikes First" was actually both offensive and defensive. Killing units before they can attack stops attacks from landing and I do think the expert charge defense and charge reflection actually does a solid job of creating a circumstance where a unit gets an advantage at the beginning of combat. It's effectively both a buff for yourself and a debuff for your enemy from bracing. Compared to just higher MA or CB this does create a new and fairly interesting way to use the unit.
Having a variant you want to charge and a variant you want to brace isn't a bad idea if both do a solid amount of damage. Remember I want to cut CB and buff WS and AP resulting in higher damage from braced Hellscourges even against chaff units (and of course in sustained combat more generally). We can already observe for units like Halberds that charge reflection provides a damage boost comparable to charging so if the goal is to make the units have less overlap this seems fairly effective (sword and board are more offensive and need to charge to perform, Hellscourges are defensive and want to stay braced). And for variations in CB, CA does that all the time with weapon variations I see no reason to draw the line here.
I'm not sure the Chosen would be worth the current price, but trading all of the CB of the Hellscourges for the WS and AP ratio of the base Chosen would make the unit substantially stronger. The anvil design isn't silly because a defensive unit is a bad idea, it's because CA didn't make a defensive unit, they made a non-threatening one. A defensive unit that deals damage, one which neuters frontal charges would actually be quite interesting for Slaanesh when facing other melee factions.
But I do agree that CA's unlikely to have done anything about it by tomorrow. They still haven't fixed the cavalry speed issues so I think we're pretty locked in with this for at least a month and a half. Boo.
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1 · Disagree 1AgreeWhat are the cavalry speed issues ?
Thanks anyway!
I will look into it and investigate. As Hellscourges currently have no AP it would be better to test that against light armored infantry/cav and evaluate the differences with and without charge relfection in terms of damage output (but in both cases with the expert charge defense trait on).
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1 · Disagree 1AgreeArmour piercing is only a theme for daemons and mutated beings of Slaanesh, not the mortals, and it's because of the massive claws that can crush/cut armour along with the person in it; they wouldn't need to be particularly sharp to do the job. It's a bit of a misconception that Slaanesh is specialized in "supernatural sharpness". Not even Sigvald's sword, forged from a shard of the blade of Slaanesh himself, has any special property to make it more useful vs armour.
The ability to cut through armour with magical sharpness is actually pretty rare trait in lore; it's a defining characteristic of the Runefangs of the Empire and the Slayer of Kings (Archaon's sword). It's not something a random slaanesh warrior would have attached to the end of an apparently non-magical whip. ... 1. Every mention surrounding their use in lore (few as they are), ripping out throats and flensing flesh don't require particularly deep wounds, and are something that they can feasibly do without a particularly large amount of force. Also, just look at them; it'd be insane for them to be a useful weapon vs armour.
2. "prolong the agonising moment of death" Yes, they deal mortal wounds (obviously, they're a weapon being used to kill people), but generally not ones that lead to immediate death, because that'd run counter to the goal of causing as much agony as possible. That's because of anti-large making the spear units perform drastically better in a common situation, while they perform only marginally worse vs infantry. Builds using spears as the front line typically include some missile units that can far more reliably answer infantry than the typically more mobile large units like cavalry. The role spears fill is generally important to the army composition. Rush armies typically do not run spear units at the front unless they have to or they need/want the anti-large.
That wouldn't at all be the case here, because 1. hellscourges aren't providing anti-large, 2. Slaanesh has no missile units to protect, rendering a unit that relies on being static and receiving a charge a LOT less useful, and 3. because they're an elite unit that costs 1600. Slaanesh has no way to force the opponent to engage the braced elite infantry from the front, which is something that often can be done with cheap spear units, especially when they're paired with missile units..
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1 · 1Disagree 1AgreeLow AP is in the realm of a 10-15% as opposed to 25, but crucially it's matched with 20-50% higher WS. On a unit with charge reflection which doubles damage rather than a focus on CB which inherits AP ratio I'm not actually sure there is much of a difference on the charge, though the follow up sustained combat would be slightly worse I suppose. Though again, there isn't a particularly compelling reason for why the Hellscourges should be worse here, other than personal interpretation.
Armour piercing is only a theme for daemons and mutated beings of Slaanesh, not the mortals, and it's because of the massive claws that can crush/cut armour along with the person in it; they wouldn't need to be particularly sharp to do the job. It's a bit of a misconception that Slaanesh is specialized in "supernatural sharpness". Not even Sigvald's sword, forged from a shard of the blade of Slaanesh himself, has any special property to make it more useful vs armour.
The ability to cut through armour with magical sharpness is actually pretty rare trait in lore; it's a defining characteristic of the Runefangs of the Empire and the Slayer of Kings (Archaon's sword). It's not something a random slaanesh warrior would have attached to the end of an apparently non-magical whip.
On the first point you're reading a lot of intent into visuals in one instance, while ignoring them in another (big blunt metal shields being slammed into people work just fine to kill someone through armor, generally better than a blade). I don't think it's a particularly compelling line of reasoning.
The armor piercing theming you mention here is actually a bit inconsistent here. Depending on source sometimes mortals are very effective at bypassing armor saves and sometimes they get no special advantages, but a similar trend can be noticed with the Daemon units. I'd argue this has more to do with mechanics than lore, where you can find a whole host of examples of mortals cleaving through armor, some empowered by the Chaos Gods and some not. Hence my statement that while Slaanesh in general has a theme of sharpness and grace there isn't any evidence supporting Hellscourges as being particularly strong or weak against armor. The descriptions just aren't that specific.
On the specifics of the game rules around armor, I think there is a distinct difference between something flat out ignoring armor saves as a mechanic, and something that is a high enough strength to wound armored units consistently. Sigvald doesn't have a rule ignoring armor saves but he's strength 5, same as a whole host of characters who can easily carve through a fully armored knight. Given he also makes a lot of attacks and as strikes first it would be reasonable to interpret him as armor piercing. CA didn't choose to do so, though they've now given him armor sundering and multiple ways to juice his WS to such a high level that his AP ratio is inconsequential making the point somewhat moot.
I'm also curious how hellscourges shouldn't be interpreted as "magical"? They're semi-sentient daemonic whips that hunger for violence, the fact that they don't deal magic attacks in game terms seems to have little bearing on whether or not we could reasonably expect them to have a comparable armor piercing ratio to a broadsword.
2. "prolong the agonising moment of death" Yes, they deal mortal wounds (obviously, they're a weapon being used to kill people), but generally not ones that lead to immediate death, because that'd run counter to the goal of causing as much agony as possible.
1. By every mention we mean 1 right? I can't find a lot of text about Hellscourges 1 way or the other and while the text you quote does refer to ripping out throats and flensing flesh it makes no mention of armor. I can just say that in tabletop stats Hellscourges were not penalized against units with higher armor/toughness relative to any other weapon. In fact as for as 8th edition is concerned they were a flat upgrade. In AoS the claw spears have rend making them better against armor but that's not the same as Hellscourges being weak to armor, that's Slaanesh mutations being proficient at penetrating armor. Any idea that they should be weak against armor is coming from you, not from the text, something you yourself acknowledge by ending with "it'd be insane" comment. We're talking about a daemonic whip here and you're arguing against positive changes to a bad unit because you personally feel the weapon being average against armor is weird.
2. You can read "prolong the moment of death" a few different ways. You seem to be reading it as dealing wounds that will eventually result in death but not in immediate death. I'm reading that as wounds that kill someone in an instant (moment is singular) but do so while causing considerable agony. I've never read a description of warhammer combat that involves someone inflicting a large number of superficial wounds until someone just keels over. Slaanesh worshippers are like the inverse of Har Ganeth executioners, practicing a death blow not to deliver the fastest most efficient death, but the most painful one imaginable from a single blow. These aren't the butchers or Khorne, they're artists of sensation, killing beautifully and agonizingly. I'd look to descriptions of Sigvald's combat if you want an example. Graceful, quick, and elegant deathblows that non-the-less result in a painful passage for his victims.
That wouldn't at all be the case here, because 1. hellscourges aren't providing anti-large, 2. Slaanesh has no missile units to protect, rendering a unit that relies on being static and receiving a charge a LOT less useful, and 3. because they're an elite unit that costs 1600. Slaanesh has no way to force the opponent to engage the braced elite infantry from the front, which is something that often can be done with cheap spear units, especially when they're paired with missile units..
1. Normally when spears are chosen over swords it's for price or MD. They're actually quite a bit worse than sword units in an infantry grind if you're talking about damage being inflicted (charge reflection has notably improved this) but if you're wanting to hold a line the higher MD makes them last longer and the charge defense against large provides protection from a monstrous infantry or cavalry charges from the front. The AL bonus is not the primary factor driving the selection of these units in these situations. Hence why rush armies don't bring spears. They're going to win the frontline engagement so they bring infantry units which they expect to perform well into infantry. They aren't worried about getting frontally charged by cavalry or monstrous infantry because they want to engage in melee quickly. Defensive stats are secondary to them.
2. Factions like Bretonnia (in theory) don't run infantry to protect missiles, they run infantry to act as an anvil for cavalry charges. That's the point of the Hellscourge unit being an anvil for Slaanesh, that they'll hold other units in place for chariots and cavalry. Neither AL nor missiles are necessary for an anvil unit to function and the Hellscourges negating all CB, having high MD, and being otherwise quite durable does allow them to fulfill this role. The fact that this will be stronger against rush factions than against missile factions isn't a knock against the unit, it's a demonstration of the different use cases. If you need to push forward and pin a unit in place go sword and board, if you want to receive a charge and set up an anvil go hellscourges. Pretty similar to the thinking you'd have when selecting between the other gods unit variants.
3. The reason they are bad for 1600 has nothing to do with Charge Defense or Charge Reflection. Cathay players have been running CDG in a game mode entirely focused around infantry for months because charge reflection and expert charge defense are just solid traits if they're attached to a unit that deals damage. 72 WS with 50 AP is good without the AL bonus at 1050. The issue all of the Hellscourges have is that they're lack of AP and low WS means they don't do enough damage to justify themselves. We've seen plenty of evidence that they're superior defensively to the sword and boards while braced, the issue is they just don't do damage.
Again, if you're aiming to chase down a melee faction you'll pick the sword and board, if you're fighting against a rush faction you'd consider the whips if they actually did damage because your opponent is going to chase you into melee. It's quite possible to make CA's paradigm functional, even if the paradigm itself is pretty silly, it's just a matter of properly balancing the units.
Mind you this also glosses over a lot of other advantages and disadvantages each unit brings. Charging even with 0 CB is a damage boost since it increases the total number of attacks made, having the ability to deny your opponent their charge bonus can be useful for zoning in and of itself since it may discourage your opponent from engaging against a faction that can easily out run their units, bracing functions on a per entity basis and activates quickly so you can cancel a move order or a charge into a brace if your micro is on point, etc. I'm not confident my suggestion would make the whips worthwhile additions to the roster, but I am confident it would make the units unique and functional without having to redesign anything. They're number changes and not even particularly complex ones. Match WS's, lower CB's, done.
I hope this hasn't come across as rude by the way, I think it's an interesting discussion and while I disagree with your suggestions I don't wish to imply that I think they are meritless, just less effective at reaching the desired goal.
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1 · Disagree 1AgreeGiving them decent AP would also seem incredibly out of place due to the nature of their weapons. Sure, it's "personal interpretation", but the only lore description we get of the weapon in WHF mentions use against the skin specifically twice (splitting skin and flensing flesh are two different ways of saying essentially the same thing), and the one in AoS is similar, but also mentions trapping people in place, which could be represented by some a contact effect reducing movement speed to make it so units can't disengage from hellscourges as easily, which may be a better option than reducing leadership to avoid buff stacking/leadership bomb issues and would be more acceptable on chaff. It'd still hold value on an elite unit because the elite unit holds longer, and a slow would help them tie up or draw attention from multiple units.
The TT games don't include any means for making a weapon specifically worse vs armour, and with how armour works, having no bonus is pretty awful against it as it is. A snotling, warhound, or even a rat was no worse against armour than a dwarf or a Gor, and that's still the case in AoS. They're mentioned as being used against skin specifically twice in the one sentence. Getting your skin sliced off is incredibly painful, but it's not the sort of wound that's going to kill you quickly, nor is it any measure of beautiful. It's a form of torture, and the wielders are specifically noted as drawing their pleasure from inflicting that agony.
Sigvald uses a rapier, and he kills his opponents with hardly any bloodshed, because beauty, his vanity and narcissism, is his devotion to Slaanesh, and he views an act that would stain his visage with blood as abhorrent. He's a completely different case from someone cutting off the skin of their opponent and/or tearing their flesh apart with a hooked/barbed whip in battle because they get off on inflicting pain. It's not something Sigvald would do, but it is rather explicitly what hellscourge wielding hellstriders do, according to what little lore we do get about them.
It is not the goal of hellstriders (and by extension other units) wielding hellscourges to kill quickly or beautifully. If it were, they'd use a different weapon that is actually capable of reliably delivering a quick death with minimal bloodshed. Yes, sometimes it's for the MD and charge defense, but that's also for generally fairly low LD chaff that break super quickly and usually in missile factions that can easily concentrate fire on the unit they're pinning in place, or otherwise in builds that are taking a minimal investment in infantry and just want it to last as long as possible for that minimal investment. For such units, those 5-20 extra seconds are more important than trading a bit more efficiently on their own. Elite infantry doesn't usually mix well with such builds, and when you have a unit winning a fight anyway, you generally want it to do so as quickly as possible, even if it means trading a bit less efficiently, especially for a melee faction, which is a large part of why forsaken were typically favored over shielded chaos warriors in WH1/2.
I's a lot easier to get value out of that melee defense/charge defense when you can spread it across a wider front line - again, this is why it's much less of a problem for the marauders/warriors than for Chosen to simply be specialized for defense/holding. By running wider, you can pin down more units and thus have more flank/rear targets for your more mobile elements or keep more units off of your back line. Increasing the holding time against more elite units by 25% or so is a lot less relevant for other elite units that probably win the fight on their own anyway. Basically every bretonnian build runs at least 4 archers, and the infantry is always used to defend them. That infantry also costs 150-325 funds, or 450 if you want the AP from halberds, and has extremely low leadership and poor armour. Which comes back to the chaff point. CDG are also AP, anti-large, and the only option for elite Cathay infantry out of only 4 different infantry units. There's not exactly a lot of choice there. Imagine Cathay had another infantry that cost 150 less but lost only charge defense/reflect and a bit of melee defense. Which would see play? Do that again, but with neither unit having anti-large. How would you give both units a place? They're also in a roster designed to box with missile units due to their harmony mechanic, making that charge defense more valuable than for most other factions.
That's sort of the situation with Hellscourges vs S&B if they're given normal AP as a means of making them better, except in a faction that has no missile units to defend and bring the opponent to them to increase the value of the more defensive unit and without them being anti-large. It'd likely render them even more useless in the context of the roster than the current version with no AP damage (provided the current version is at least given some kind of buff to perform relatively better vs light troops).
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0 · 3Disagree Agree- after a 12 minutes long engagement they did lose against unidivided S&B Chosen at 1250 gold after an average damage of 1130
- Against Swordmasters they did an average of 772 damage before losing
- Against Slaanesh S&B Chosen they did an average of 1010 damage
As their statline seemed to indicate they are almost exactly at the same performance than regular undivided S&B Chosen at 1250 gold.So they need either a statline buff with AP damage, a cost reduction or an entirely rework.
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1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1AgreeBut its not like they're gaining some great ability to blend infantry... or large entities... or bringing any special utility.
They are somewhat more tanky but... not that much.
I'm still in the camp of just make the Spear "n" Board infantry with a normal Spear "n" Board Damage, AP, and BvL profile. Besides it goes with Slaanesh's Hoplite theme.
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0 · Disagree AgreeAllow them to toggle between
Would make them Very unique
It would require whip to come with some actual AP however.
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0 · Disagree AgreeSomething along the line of -4 att -4 def on hit and -$300
Anyway they need such a massive buff that just cant be bothered talking about them really.
Its nice to have a successor to trash guard so in that sense they served their purpose
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1 · 1Disagree 1Agree60 MA
56 MD
46 WS (with 11 AP damage)
+discouraged effect on contact (-16 leadership)
and remove their expert charge defense and charge reflection abilities
I modded them with these stats and slight changes : I did not add any contact effect (leadership debuff or else) , let them their expert charge defense and charge reflection abilities, gave them 12 AP damage and reduced their CB to 16.
So the stats are :
60 MA (+ 16 MA)
56 MD (- 9 MD)
48 WS (with 12 AP damage) (-8 base damage, +12 AP damage )
16 CB (-10 CB)
They perform really well now without being broken. They still lose against Khorne dual axe Chosen and against Hellforged but by bracing can beat Nurgle GW Chosen. Example against Bladesingers they did 1100 damage and received 1000 damage.
So the main problem was their weak statline for their price.
I also notice that charge reflection bonus is actually stronger with a higher MA than MD. Charge reflection doubles WS during a short period but contrary to CB does not buff MA. Result the units do more damage if it hits its intended target. And with initial relative low MA of 44 (and 0 AP) giving weak hit chance, charge reflection was almost useless for the Hellscourges Chosen.
Charge reflection is also much better on AP units.
By decreasing their Charge bonus from 26 ->16, they still keep their defensive "anvil" design. But overall they feel much better!
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1 · Disagree 1Agreebut I was very surprised by the chosen versions performance against exalted bloodletters in testing. Some of them had around 50% health left after killing them when bracing to start the engagement.
If they were same price as regular sword and board chosen in very rare niche circumstances I could see them being used in khorne matchup if they had a minor amount of ap instead of none.
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0 · 1Disagree AgreeDoes Slaanesh have more elite infantry lore wise ? Could we expect in a future DLC a more elite infantry or the Chosen is the "ultimate" unit infantry in the roster ?
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0 · Disagree AgreeTry them against regular undivided Chosen and other infantry units priced at 1200-1250. You'll see that they perform worse than these other units in most cases. Price wise related to performance Slaanesh Hellscourges Chosen is already at 1200-1250 gold. So if you put them at this price they absolutely don't need any debuffs.
But I don't think it is a good idea to cut their price. Better to buff them instead.
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0 · Disagree Agree- Report
3 · Disagree 3Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeChaos warrior whip missing 20 wep str
Mara whip missing 10 wep str
All this is due to the fact they got 0 ap and frankly just too weak. This needs to be look at
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1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · 2Disagree AgreeYou first talk about attack speed, but that isn't a thing in TWW. Attack interval (which is longer for Hellscourges for the record see twwstats.com) just standardizes the number of attacks units make over a period of time. Basically, if it isn't an SEM it's going to attack at roughly the same rate, and for SEMs with weird animations attack interval and WS are scaled to produce consistent damage output with every other SEM (see Varghuls very low WS and Rogue Idols very high WS for examples of outliers). Units are designed and balanced so that you can predict performance from the stats listed on the unit card, trying to read extra performance into units is going to mislead you.
Second when you mention Hellscourges having support from other units, but this is a red herring. We're discussing individual unit performance and if your argument is that whips are good if other units deal with the armored enemies, why the heck am I paying a premium for the whips? If marauder horsemen or devoted marauders are doing some of the work what am I paying for?
Third, you note that other units would take a charge for Hellscourges, when their entire advantage over normal Chosen is expert charge defense and charge reflection. If you are charging a unit the sword and board version is just objectively better. The issue isn't that Chosen with whips are literally broken as a unit, it's that in all cases you would prefer to take a non-hellscourge variant over the hellscourge variant. 0 AP is terrible because even 30 armor means you're losing about 20% of your total damage output (also lower total WS means physical resistance also is a problem for them). They're almost comically bad as a unit design and no amount of support or micro makes them worth their ridiculous price. Mind you this is all hellscourge units, not just Chosen. You pay a premium for at best parity in performance which is always a waste of resources.
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5 · Disagree 5AgreeCHOSEN OF SLAANESH (HELLSCOURGES)
Base Weapon Damage: 44 → 26
Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: 0 → 13
Campaign Cost: 1,600 → 1,400
Upkeep Cost: 400 → 350
Multiplayer Cost: 1,600 → 1,400
Removed: Weak Against Armour
Actual changes in game :
Base Weapon Damage: 44 → 34
Armour-Piercing Weapon Damage: 0 → 7
Melee Defense: 65→ 70
Campaign Cost: 1,600 → 1,500
Multiplayer Cost: 1,600 → 1,500
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0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree#givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc
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0 · 1Disagree AgreeThe Marked Chosen are still too expensive in my opinion.
But do they fill a unique role in the Slaanesh roster compared to the regular Slaanesh Chosen ? No.
As a side note, I think however that the Slaanesh Warriors of Chaos with Hellscourges perform really well.
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1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
2 · Disagree 2AgreeCA kind of acknowledged that in this patch when they dropped the Khorne Chosen (Dual Axes) by 150 cost, which for most units would be an insane buff. For the Khorne Chosen this still leaves them feeling kind of meh. For 1500 you can get the Hellforged Host after all which are nearly always a superior choice.
When judged by that standard the Hellscourge Chosen getting cut to 1500 and getting some AP brings them to just "ill advised" rather than "actively harmful" to a build. The Chosen and the Marauder variants might actually be fairly good given they're overpaying substantially less for their new stats. It's honestly possible that expert charge defense and charge reflection will be entirely worth the price hike for the lower tier units given how powerful that combination has proven over the lifespan of game three.
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1 · Disagree 1AgreeCharge reflection is very underwhelming and does very few damage for two reasons :
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1 · Disagree 1AgreeCA kind of acknowledged that in this patch when they dropped the Khorne Chosen (Dual Axes) by 150 cost, which for most units would be an insane buff. For the Khorne Chosen this still leaves them feeling kind of meh. For 1500 you can get the Hellforged Host after all which are nearly always a superior choice.
You are right. Chosen are still overpriced and underperforming for their cost. Prices are still very random among them. Slaanesh Chosen with Hellscourges should not be more expensive than regular Chosen with GW at 1450 gold given that they perform worst in almost any situation.
For example Slaanesh Chosen with hellscourges lose against Swormasters whereas regular Chosen with GW win (barely)
I think they could also have a slight increase in WS.
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0 · 1Disagree AgreeI still think the mark tax is garbage and agree with the suggestion marked chosen should be cheaper in general but this test is going to underestimate the whip Chosen's performance.
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1 · 2Disagree 1Agree