Daemons of Chaos - another 4-LL DLC?

Krwawy_Baron#9023

At its current shape, Daemons of Chaos are "Daniel's faction" unfortunately - and some Persons here consider them as a "forgotten Army book". When CA introduced Be'lakor as WoC LL, they complained that they will need to make a big re-design Daemons of Chaos to add Be'lakor there.

Is that means that they will stuck with 1 not very unique LL? I hope not, and here is my idea how to re-introduce Daemons of Chaos as an army into WH3.

Here is a thing: monogods already owns the greatest of big daemons and I guess that heralds as Masque or Skulltaker will be added to monogods as a FLC. However, there are also some "second in rank" greater daemons present in Warhammer universe. With Festus, CA explained that they want to make each lord unique in some way and avoid duplicates with them. Because of that CA will not add Ka'bandha to Khorne faction, as we already can play as Skarbrand. But this character can be used for Khorne legendary character as a leader of "pure" daemon faction and then transfer this nice Forge World model into game: https://www.forgeworld.co.uk/en-ES/ka-bandha-daemon-general-of-signus-2022

Same for Tzeentch: we have Kairos already, but tzeentchian daemon LL for DoC could be Amon 'Chakai (btw, Red_Dox - many thanks for your lore articles, you are doing great work with them here )

I have no idea who could lead Slaneesh faction for DoC... I think that "second in rank" for Nurgle could be Rotigus - but I don't know if this character is existing in WH 40k only...

What about roster - nothing new here, there is no missing daemon units nor heroes in WH3: there are only characters which are not top 1 and they came from lore and/or supplements. And this is a very challenging situation for CA if they want to squish more money from DoC and provide us factions worth to purchase and play. Mechanics will need to shine and be very different from things which we know, because they cannot duplicate Ku'gath plagues for DoC Nurgle character as they've done with Festus.

I am very content that Warriors of Chaos - my favourite faction - finally received some love and attention from CA - and I think that in general, Team has made quite good work with CoC DLC. But pure daemon only armies - not mono-gods with mix of daemons & warriors - deserve some attention too. I - and I am sure that some other people too - would like to play campaign with DoC army also.

Goatforce#6625

The only relevant Daemons left to add are the Herald characters (plus Changeling). Amon Chakai was replaced by Kairos Fateweaver and doesn't really add anything at all.

Also there are basically no Daemon units left to add, outside of maybe a couple of the newer Daemon units like the Infernal Enrapturess which may come. The base game roster was specifically designed to complete the Daemons.

Outside of the Heralds the remaining Mono LLs will be Mortals. That is what is missing both from their rosters and LL pool.

mecanojavi99#6562

What part of "we can't add more LLs to DoC because of how the entire Race was designed" you don't understand?

mecanojavi99#6562

Goatforce said:

The only relevant Daemons left to add are the Herald characters (plus Changeling). Amon Chakai was replaced by Kairos Fateweaver and doesn't really add anything at all.

Also there are basically no Daemon units left to add, outside of maybe a couple of the newer Daemon units like the Infernal Enrapturess which may come. The base game roster was specifically designed to complete the Daemons.

Outside of the Heralds the remaining Mono LLs will be Mortals. That is what is missing both from their rosters and LL pool.

Amon Chakai is dead, we have an item in game with his eye on it.

cavebear56

Oh fiddlesticks.

Amon' Chakai can work proper as a DLC. Kairos didn't "replace him" anymoe than Vilitch replaces Egrimm or Valkia does Arbaal.

That's part of the issue in general with daemons when it comes to greater daemons anyways.

Any argument applied for Amon could apply to Nurgle (we already have Kugath), thirsters or keepers.

In fact I'd argue with Amon they at least have a bit more to work with over others, especially anything Khorne related.

Just for the fact he wouldn't be complete garbage in combat, along with being able to actually see the present, being the oldest and wisest due to having complete knowledge over destiny. Not snippets. Not possible threads but able to actually get as close to dictating it as possible.

The hearlds of course because why not? Using similar arguments i've seen over time Krell is just a less effective wight king, Isabella just a better vampire hero and so on.

They could be differentiated more just as easily as Amon or nearly anyone else. In fact I'd argue they even have a bit more as when it comes to greater daemons the variance seems to be less different.

Of course the old Champions of Chaos mortals such as Mordrek, arbaal, Aekold, Egrimm and so on all things considered to help round them out further.

Chaos is not hurting for options.

Even Beastmen (the best of chaos, they even have a unit with the name Best so it must be true!) have some legs left on them.

Lord_Zarkov#7252

cavebear56 said:

Oh fiddlesticks.

Amon' Chakai can work proper as a DLC. Kairos didn't "replace him" anymoe than Vilitch replaces Egrimm or Valkia does Arbaal.

That's part of the issue in general with daemons when it comes to greater daemons anyways.

Any argument applied for Amon could apply to Nurgle (we already have Kugath), thirsters or keepers.

In fact I'd argue with Amon they at least have a bit more to work with over others, especially anything Khorne related.

Just for the fact he wouldn't be complete garbage in combat, along with being able to actually see the present, being the oldest and wisest due to having complete knowledge over destiny. Not snippets. Not possible threads but able to actually get as close to dictating it as possible.

The hearlds of course because why not? Using similar arguments i've seen over time Krell is just a less effective wight king, Isabella just a better vampire hero and so on.

They could be differentiated more just as easily as Amon or nearly anyone else. In fact I'd argue they even have a bit more as when it comes to greater daemons the variance seems to be less different.

Of course the old Champions of Chaos mortals such as Mordrek, arbaal, Aekold, Egrimm and so on all things considered to help round them out further.

Chaos is not hurting for options.

Even Beastmen (the best of chaos, they even have a unit with the name Best so it must be true!) have some legs left on them.

Kairos replaced Amon Chakai rather more substantively than your other examples.

Amon was Tzeentch’s favourite LoC who was the most powerful LoC wizard and was unique in that he had perfect knowledge of the future.

Kairos is…

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

I just want DoC LLs to be dual LLs.

Krwawy_Baron#9023

mecanojavi99 said:

What part of "we can't add more LLs to DoC because of how the entire Race was designed" you don't understand?

This is not good argument - they can re-design faction if they want, they already done this with Nakai. If Nakai's faction can be different that other Lizardmen, also Daniel can be different when compared to other Daemons of Chaos factions if CA wish that.

mecanojavi99 said:

Amon Chakai is dead, we have an item in game with his eye on it.

Rakarth was also "dead", we had an item made from his old horse's skin (it was gloves or boots if I remember) via event in Dark Elf campaign.

I don't want to have 1LL iin DoC, while non-existed races like Norsca, Vampire Coast or Cathay will have 5 playable lords and factions. This will be very bad. I am not hostile against these factions - I enjoy them too, but it will not be fair if DoC will be limited to one - and not very good or unique - lord only.

Cortes31#6909

mecanojavi99 said:

What part of "we can't add more LLs to DoC because of how the entire Race was designed" you don't understand?

All of it, appearantly.

No really, the entire race DoC in WH3 is only going to have Daniel as LL. End of Story.

mecanojavi99#6562

Krwawy_Baron said:

mecanojavi99 said:

What part of "we can't add more LLs to DoC because of how the entire Race was designed" you don't understand?

This is not good argument - they can re-design faction if they want, they already done this with Nakai. If Nakai's faction can be different that other Lizardmen, also Daniel can be different when compared to other Daemons of Chaos factions if CA wish that.

mecanojavi99 said:

Amon Chakai is dead, we have an item in game with his eye on it.

Rakarth was also "dead", we had an item made from his old horse's skin (it was gloves or boots if I remember) via event in Dark Elf campaign.

I don't want to have 1LL iin DoC, while non-existed races like Norsca, Vampire Coast or Cathay will have 5 playable lords and factions. This will be very bad. I am not hostile against these factions - I enjoy them too, but it will not be fair if DoC will be limited to one - and not very good or unique - lord only.

What are you even talking about? Nakai is just a Horde with a Vassal, how is that a redising of anything?

There are no more DoC Factions because there can't be anymore by CAs own words, otherwise they would have reworked DoC with the launch of IE to accommodate Be'lakor, instead he is being added to WoC because he literally can't be added to DoC.

DoC will not get more LL, if you have such a problem with it take it with CA, they are the ones that designed the Race around Godslayer.

How something made of the skin of Rakarth's old horse is the same as the literal eye of Amon Chakai?

Slugus#5078

How is the Daemon Prince not unique?

Krwawy_Baron#9023

mecanojavi99 said:

What are you even talking about? Nakai is just a Horde with a Vassal, how is that a redising of anything?

You answered - Nakai is horde, he don't occupy and build cities. He use his vassal to collect extra cash and occupy land. He also has different tech tree than Mazdamundi and rest of lizards. With DoC it's easier - just replace "body parts" with proper tech tree and add normal LL - that's all.

mecanojavi99 said:

How something made of the skin of Rakarth's old horse is the same as the literal eye of Amon Chakai?

If Tzeentch wishes, Amon 'Chakai can get a new eye. Or this character will be one-eyed. It's simple. Also, it could be other greater daemon - even Sarthorael from WH1 if content designer wants, I don't care.

1v0#3562

I don't want to see another 4 LLs DLC !

Krwawy_Baron#9023

Slugus said:

How is the Daemon Prince not unique?

He looks the same as a generic undivided daemon princes, and then he can get body parts of other god's princes.

Krwawy_Baron#9023

1v0 said:

I don't want to see another 4 LLs DLC !

You don't, others are content with that. This DLC format is good under some conditions - I don't see any other way to add vampire bloodlines characters or Empire's elector counts. Okay, Neferata is popular enough and own theme to sell DLC, but Walach Harkon or Vorag?

Heretical_Cactus#7598

On one side, 4 LL dlc is needed (or was) for the Monogod to at least bring them to 2 lords


But someone at CA though thatvit would be better to throw a wrench in the easy plan and make it harder on themselves.

So no no need for any 4LL lordpack anymore. It did what it had to do unit wise so now we can turn to special lord packs and flc

Slugus#5078

Krwawy_Baron said:

Slugus said:

How is the Daemon Prince not unique?

He looks the same as a generic undivided daemon princes, and then he can get body parts of other god's princes.

What generic undivided Daemon Prince does he look the same as?

He has a unique campaign, unique mechanics, skill tree, roster, start position and the only character in the game with that level of customisation and you’re able to change his actual look.

Clearly the most unique LLD in the game?

Could their be improvements? Sure. But this thread doesn’t even suggest those changes and improvements just is about suggesting LLDs to shove into the same race for no real reason

Goatforce#6625

Krwawy_Baron said:

mecanojavi99 said:

What are you even talking about? Nakai is just a Horde with a Vassal, how is that a redising of anything?

You answered - Nakai is horde, he don't occupy and build cities. He use his vassal to collect extra cash and occupy land. He also has different tech tree than Mazdamundi and rest of lizards. With DoC it's easier - just replace "body parts" with proper tech tree and add normal LL - that's all.

mecanojavi99 said:

How something made of the skin of Rakarth's old horse is the same as the literal eye of Amon Chakai?

If Tzeentch wishes, Amon 'Chakai can get a new eye. Or this character will be one-eyed. It's simple. Also, it could be other greater daemon - even Sarthorael from WH1 if content designer wants, I don't care.

You are completely misunderstanding his point I think. The issue with DoC is apparently that the Race was designed around Daniel in such a way as to make it difficult or impossible to add more LLs that use different systems. As opposed to the LM race which wasn't designed in that way which allowed for a Horde for 1 LL.

I didn't see CA say that they literally cannot add LLs to DoC, but I had speculated that may be the case and can believe it.

Itharus#3127

I'm confused.

We have 5 daemons of chaos, don't we? The 4 monos and Yuri (I am not saying Daniel again), no?

1 of each flavor and 1 undivided?

Then we have Belakor to boot... doing... I dunno what?

doclumbago#6250

DoC might be stuck with Daniel. There are no undivided Greater Daemons I can think of. Possible solution maybe allow Daniel confederations like Beastmen to recruit the Monogod Lords

Captain_Rex#1635

Itharus said:

I'm confused.

We have 5 daemons of chaos, don't we? The 4 monos and Yuri (I am not saying Daniel again), no?

1 of each flavor and 1 undivided?

Then we have Belakor to boot... doing... I dunno what?

No. Only Daniel/Yuri is Daemons of Chaos. It’s a 1 LL race completely designed around the Daemon Prince.

Then we have Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch with the 4 Greater Daemons. each is it’s own unique race.

And CA also already confirmed that the so called „Monogod“ races will get plenty of LLs each, including Mortals.

At the same time hey also said that they couldn’t add Be’Lakor to DoC because the whole race is designed around the Daemon Prince.

Slugus#5078

ArneSo said:

Itharus said:

I'm confused.

We have 5 daemons of chaos, don't we? The 4 monos and Yuri (I am not saying Daniel again), no?

1 of each flavor and 1 undivided?

Then we have Belakor to boot... doing... I dunno what?

No. Only Daniel/Yuri is Daemons of Chaos. It’s a 1 LL race completely designed around the Daemon Prince.

Then we have Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch with the 4 Greater Daemons. each is it’s own unique race.

And CA also already confirmed that the so called „Monogod“ races will get plenty of LLs each, including Mortals.

At the same time hey also said that they couldn’t add Be’Lakor to DoC because the whole race is designed around the Daemon Prince.

Well actually we have 0 Daemons of Chaos as Yuri is Legions of Chaos. The mono gods are for their respective Gods.

WoC, LoC and Mono all have access to Daemons in some form.

Captain_Rex#1635

Ah I see, people are disagreeing with literally facts again… still haven’t swallowed the Monogod pill have you?

Captain_Rex#1635

Slugus said:

ArneSo said:

Itharus said:

I'm confused.

We have 5 daemons of chaos, don't we? The 4 monos and Yuri (I am not saying Daniel again), no?

1 of each flavor and 1 undivided?

Then we have Belakor to boot... doing... I dunno what?

No. Only Daniel/Yuri is Daemons of Chaos. It’s a 1 LL race completely designed around the Daemon Prince.

Then we have Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch with the 4 Greater Daemons. each is it’s own unique race.

And CA also already confirmed that the so called „Monogod“ races will get plenty of LLs each, including Mortals.

At the same time hey also said that they couldn’t add Be’Lakor to DoC because the whole race is designed around the Daemon Prince.

Well actually we have 0 Daemons of Chaos as Yuri is Legions of Chaos. The mono gods are for their respective Gods.

WoC, LoC and Mono all have access to Daemons in some form.

His faction name is Legion of Chaos. But his race is Daemons of Chaos.

Just like Be’Lakors faction name is Shadow Legion and his Race Warriors of Chaos.

Slugus#5078

ArneSo said:

Slugus said:

ArneSo said:

Itharus said:

I'm confused.

We have 5 daemons of chaos, don't we? The 4 monos and Yuri (I am not saying Daniel again), no?

1 of each flavor and 1 undivided?

Then we have Belakor to boot... doing... I dunno what?

No. Only Daniel/Yuri is Daemons of Chaos. It’s a 1 LL race completely designed around the Daemon Prince.

Then we have Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch with the 4 Greater Daemons. each is it’s own unique race.

And CA also already confirmed that the so called „Monogod“ races will get plenty of LLs each, including Mortals.

At the same time hey also said that they couldn’t add Be’Lakor to DoC because the whole race is designed around the Daemon Prince.

Well actually we have 0 Daemons of Chaos as Yuri is Legions of Chaos. The mono gods are for their respective Gods.

WoC, LoC and Mono all have access to Daemons in some form.

His faction name is Legion of Chaos. But his race is Daemons of Chaos.

Just like Be’Lakors faction name is Shadow Legion and his Race Warriors of Chaos.

Fair, but WoC race has many variations with many different factions. Daemons of Chaos race only has the one variant which is Legions of Chaos…

None of them are solely Daemons (not that I think they should be) or solely Warriors. It’s a great way of implementing Chaos in my opinion

Yakinton#1016

I can understand your disappointment in DoC only getting one LL that did not come from GW original lore. But the only real option was Belakor, and that ship has sailed. All other demons should be in the monogod armies

DarthEnderX-#6513

Krwawy_Baron said:

Is that means that they will stuck with 1 not very unique LL?

Probably. CA said that the DoC's race mechanics were specifically built for the Daemon Prince. So they don't really make sense for any other character.

Itharus#3127

ArneSo said:

Itharus said:

I'm confused.

We have 5 daemons of chaos, don't we? The 4 monos and Yuri (I am not saying Daniel again), no?

1 of each flavor and 1 undivided?

Then we have Belakor to boot... doing... I dunno what?

No. Only Daniel/Yuri is Daemons of Chaos. It’s a 1 LL race completely designed around the Daemon Prince.

Then we have Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch with the 4 Greater Daemons. each is it’s own unique race.

And CA also already confirmed that the so called „Monogod“ races will get plenty of LLs each, including Mortals.

At the same time hey also said that they couldn’t add Be’Lakor to DoC because the whole race is designed around the Daemon Prince.

**** that's convoluted.

Djau#5149

Itharus said:

ArneSo said:

Itharus said:

I'm confused.

We have 5 daemons of chaos, don't we? The 4 monos and Yuri (I am not saying Daniel again), no?

1 of each flavor and 1 undivided?

Then we have Belakor to boot... doing... I dunno what?

No. Only Daniel/Yuri is Daemons of Chaos. It’s a 1 LL race completely designed around the Daemon Prince.

Then we have Khorne, Slaanesh, Nurgle and Tzeentch with the 4 Greater Daemons. each is it’s own unique race.

And CA also already confirmed that the so called „Monogod“ races will get plenty of LLs each, including Mortals.

At the same time hey also said that they couldn’t add Be’Lakor to DoC because the whole race is designed around the Daemon Prince.

**** that's convoluted.

Not really. We have WoC as they were in the army book moreorless (with some additional daemon gifts). We have Monos that consist of Mortal and Daemon LLs plus all the Marked stuff of a God. Finally we have Daemons of Chaos which isn't really Daemons of Chaos.

Itharus#3127

HTF are Monos not Daemons of Chaos? They're literally a bunch of Greater Daemon LLs. This is confusing >.<

Captain_Rex#1635

Itharus said:

HTF are Monos not Daemons of Chaos? They're literally a bunch of Greater Daemon LLs. This is confusing >.<</p>

That’s only the launch line up. They will get mortal LLs like Arbaal, Egrimm, Dechala, Tamurkhan, Skarr, Aekold and so on.

Monogods represent the United forces of each God. Daemonic and Mortal.

Daemons of Chaos is only the Daemon Prince with his body changing mechanic.