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Does the Empire or Bretonnia have better knights?

2

Comments

  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,590
    Empire
    afverrall said:

    In campagin they are the best knights.

    meh with enough buff stacking gobbos can beat chosen does that mean Gobbos were better infantry than chosen?

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,590
    Empire
    Draxynnic said:

    Kinda depends on what you mean by the question. Bretonnians have the better riders in Grail Knights, but it's also worth noting that they also technically have the worst knights in Knights Errant. Empire knights are consistently at at least KotR level since their equivalent of Knights Errant are Pistoliers, but don't reach Grail Knight level.

    If you're asking about who has the scarier heavy cavalry overall, though, the demigryphs push the Empire ahead.

    Unless you care about flying, in which case Bretonnians win by default.

    for the time been yes.

    but with the knight order dlc 100% sure this will change since making a imperial gryphon rider units is super easy , and easy money and by default empire gryphons are stronger

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • afverrall#1754afverrall#1754 Registered Users Posts: 1,381
    edited August 2022
    Bretonnians
    saweendra said:

    afverrall said:

    In campagin they are the best knights.

    meh with enough buff stacking gobbos can beat chosen does that mean Gobbos were better infantry than chosen?
    Considering chosen can get their own buffs your argument would only apply if max gobbos beat maxed chosen or were better for their price point. The point was bret cav has a heigh celing if power than empire knights.

    Your point is also kind of lazy and adds nothing to tbe discussion.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,590
    Empire
    afverrall said:

    saweendra said:

    afverrall said:

    In campagin they are the best knights.

    meh with enough buff stacking gobbos can beat chosen does that mean Gobbos were better infantry than chosen?
    Considering chosen can get their own buff your argument would only apply if max gobbos beat maxed chosen. The point was bret cav has a heigh celing if power than empire knights.

    Your point is also kind of lazy and adds nothing to tbe discussion.
    afverrall said:

    saweendra said:

    afverrall said:

    In campagin they are the best knights.

    meh with enough buff stacking gobbos can beat chosen does that mean Gobbos were better infantry than chosen?
    Considering chosen can get their own buff your argument would only apply if max gobbos beat maxed chosen. The point was bret cav has a heigh celing if power than empire knights.

    Your point is also kind of lazy and adds nothing to tbe discussion.
    no the point is considring dumb buff stacking pointless because it distorts the actual performance of the unit . the base line performance of empire cav is better than brets

    i mean realistically brets have way more buff stacking built in to them like its pretty easy to get foot squires hell even peasent mobs to the point they star long mowing through empire infantry

    you don't have people saying bret infantry is better do you?


    and as for empire buff stacking sooner or later empire will and must recive knight orders dlc which will sort that issue out

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • afverrall#1754afverrall#1754 Registered Users Posts: 1,381
    Bretonnians
    And it doesn't distort anything I specficly said in campaign where buffs exist and therefore they are better there.

    You may only judge by base stats which in campaign is a very limited view of things and adjusting for potential future dlc on a question asked now is ridicules.

    I made no comment on mp.
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,347
    saweendra said:



    and as for empire buff stacking sooner or later empire will and must recive knight orders dlc which will sort that issue out

    Given that Gelt runs around with the Reiksmarshal's Runefang it is pretty clear that the owner is not in line for a DLC any time soon. If Kurt is actually added to the game he is more likely to be an FLC than having his own DLC. Much like CA wasted Volkmar's potential with the Grand Theogenists uninspiring new mechanic there is a very real risk they will waste the potential of Kurt Helborg. It is modders that will make the Empire great with steel, faith and gunpowder, not CA.
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,590
    Empire
    KN_Gars said:

    saweendra said:



    and as for empire buff stacking sooner or later empire will and must recive knight orders dlc which will sort that issue out

    Given that Gelt runs around with the Reiksmarshal's Runefang it is pretty clear that the owner is not in line for a DLC any time soon. If Kurt is actually added to the game he is more likely to be an FLC than having his own DLC. Much like CA wasted Volkmar's potential with the Grand Theogenists uninspiring new mechanic there is a very real risk they will waste the potential of Kurt Helborg. It is modders that will make the Empire great with steel, faith and gunpowder, not CA.
    they will probably put kurt or who ever they pick to shove it in a random location. plus didn't they say its easier to move lords any way now.


    as for faith steel gunpoweder by the time CA is done with empire it will be faith , steel gunpowder, monsotors , and magic. so it will be great

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,590
    Empire
    afverrall said:

    And it doesn't distort anything I specficly said in campaign where buffs exist and therefore they are better there.

    You may only judge by base stats which in campaign is a very limited view of things and adjusting for potential future dlc on a question asked now is ridicules.

    I made no comment on mp.

    afverrall said:

    And it doesn't distort anything I specficly said in campaign where buffs exist and therefore they are better there.

    You may only judge by base stats which in campaign is a very limited view of things and adjusting for potential future dlc on a question asked now is ridicules.

    I made no comment on mp.

    ok since we are taking the dumb buff stacking in to account than brets have the better infantry since brets have way more buff stacking than empire

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Nazjax#2857Nazjax#2857 Registered Users Posts: 2,557
    edited August 2022
    saweendra said:

    KIT1986 said:

    The Bretonian cav. is better in general but the demis are souhld be superior caus they sloughter horess.

    Krabbz said:

    In game, Empire.

    In lore, Bretonnia.

    Shows how poorly Bretonnia is in game.

    Why is the Empires cav. better?
    Demigryphs better


    78 speed with 110 armor for normal cav better


    Its the same tt as well demis are stronger

    And they have better support cav in outsiders..etc.

    And have plenty of weapon variety in knightly orders yet to be fully implemented



    The only place bret knights are better is in lore.
    In tt they were good empire better due to demis.
    Nazjax said:

    Lore question or in the game ?

    Because technicaly demigryffons beat grail knights and guardians.
    But knights of the realm are just better than empire knights and reiksguard.
    Bretonnia knights are more cost efficient and have more variety.

    PS : Boost Bretonnia (and HE) horses speed like Empire please.

    In the lore... you already know the answer I guess...

    Knights of the realm loose to rekisguard

    Grail knights can loose to knights of the blazing sun given the right conditions in wh2 not sure on wh 3.
    I was talking about ''being better'' (less true now that Empire got more speed lol) not winning in a pure 1v1 situation. Knights of the realm have the same gold value against Reiksguard who cost 200 more. But yes if we talk about fighting each other they are less good.
    The whole point was about cost efficency of Bretonnia knights.
    For 50 and 100 less, Questing knights destroy Blazing sun and Reiksguard.

    But in campaign the ''elite'' is really important, and Bretonnia elite cavalry is less good than Empire.
    The Empire is better in all other respects, so Bretonnia may have a few more cost-efficient units, but even its elite cavalry unit loses to the Empire.
    That's why I'd like to see some love for Bretonnia, whether it's new units or some buffs.

    What are you ''right conditions'' ? And now magical attacks of Grail Knights are not a problem with magical resistance of Blazing Sun... So probably even less true in warhammer 3.


  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,590
    edited August 2022
    Empire
    Nazjax said:

    saweendra said:

    KIT1986 said:

    The Bretonian cav. is better in general but the demis are souhld be superior caus they sloughter horess.

    Krabbz said:

    In game, Empire.

    In lore, Bretonnia.

    Shows how poorly Bretonnia is in game.

    Why is the Empires cav. better?
    Demigryphs better


    78 speed with 110 armor for normal cav better


    Its the same tt as well demis are stronger

    And they have better support cav in outsiders..etc.

    And have plenty of weapon variety in knightly orders yet to be fully implemented



    The only place bret knights are better is in lore.
    In tt they were good empire better due to demis.
    Nazjax said:

    Lore question or in the game ?

    Because technicaly demigryffons beat grail knights and guardians.
    But knights of the realm are just better than empire knights and reiksguard.
    Bretonnia knights are more cost efficient and have more variety.

    PS : Boost Bretonnia (and HE) horses speed like Empire please.

    In the lore... you already know the answer I guess...

    Knights of the realm loose to rekisguard

    Grail knights can loose to knights of the blazing sun given the right conditions in wh2 not sure on wh 3.
    I was talking about ''being better'' (less true now that Empire got more speed lol) not winning in a pure 1v1 situation. Knights of the realm have the same gold value against Reiksguard who cost 200 more. But yes if we talk about fighting each other they are less good.
    The whole point was about cost efficency of Bretonnia knights.
    For 50 and 100 less, Questing knights destroy Blazing sun and Reiksguard.

    But in campaign the ''elite'' is really important, and Bretonnia elite cavalry is less good than Empire.
    The Empire is better in all other respects, so Bretonnia may have a few more cost-efficient units, but even its elite cavalry unit loses to the Empire.
    That's why I'd like to see some love for Bretonnia, whether it's new units or some buffs.

    What are you ''right conditions'' ? And now magical attacks of Grail Knights are not a problem with magical resistance of Blazing Sun... So probably even less true in warhammer 3.


    Nazjax said:

    saweendra said:

    KIT1986 said:

    The Bretonian cav. is better in general but the demis are souhld be superior caus they sloughter horess.

    Krabbz said:

    In game, Empire.

    In lore, Bretonnia.

    Shows how poorly Bretonnia is in game.

    Why is the Empires cav. better?
    Demigryphs better


    78 speed with 110 armor for normal cav better


    Its the same tt as well demis are stronger

    And they have better support cav in outsiders..etc.

    And have plenty of weapon variety in knightly orders yet to be fully implemented



    The only place bret knights are better is in lore.
    In tt they were good empire better due to demis.
    Nazjax said:

    Lore question or in the game ?

    Because technicaly demigryffons beat grail knights and guardians.
    But knights of the realm are just better than empire knights and reiksguard.
    Bretonnia knights are more cost efficient and have more variety.

    PS : Boost Bretonnia (and HE) horses speed like Empire please.

    In the lore... you already know the answer I guess...

    Knights of the realm loose to rekisguard

    Grail knights can loose to knights of the blazing sun given the right conditions in wh2 not sure on wh 3.
    I was talking about ''being better'' (less true now that Empire got more speed lol) not winning in a pure 1v1 situation. Knights of the realm have the same gold value against Reiksguard who cost 200 more. But yes if we talk about fighting each other they are less good.
    The whole point was about cost efficency of Bretonnia knights.
    For 50 and 100 less, Questing knights destroy Blazing sun and Reiksguard.

    But in campaign the ''elite'' is really important, and Bretonnia elite cavalry is less good than Empire.
    The Empire is better in all other respects, so Bretonnia may have a few more cost-efficient units, but even its elite cavalry unit loses to the Empire.
    That's why I'd like to see some love for Bretonnia, whether it's new units or some buffs.

    What are you ''right conditions'' ? And now magical attacks of Grail Knights are not a problem with magical resistance of Blazing Sun... So probably even less true in warhammer 3.


    the charge basically with out the charge bonus grail knights can not fight back against the armor values of empire or a simple support which the empire can do better with buffs and spells than bretonnia .

    like i said right conditions and yes the magic resistance of the knight of the balzing sun allowed them to basically trade up and beat grail knights out side of full frontal charge by the grail knights\


    yeah i really hope bretonnia gets some thing that allow them tto stand on equal footing not just for empire but kislev, OK ...etc

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Ben1990#8909Ben1990#8909 Registered Users Posts: 3,044
    Bretonnians
    Brets. No contests.

    The Empire of Sigmar may have the largest diversity of Knight Chapters, but Bret Knights are literally equivalents of Space Marines in terms of superhuman capabilities. Only the most powerful Chaos Knights and Blood Dragons can match a Grail Knight or a Duke of Bretonnia who all are powerful fighters (with the Kings of Bretonnia always being Grail Knights).
  • lcmiracle#6727lcmiracle#6727 Registered Users Posts: 1,129
    Bretonnians
    KN_Gars said:

    saweendra said:



    and as for empire buff stacking sooner or later empire will and must recive knight orders dlc which will sort that issue out

    Given that Gelt runs around with the Reiksmarshal's Runefang it is pretty clear that the owner is not in line for a DLC any time soon. If Kurt is actually added to the game he is more likely to be an FLC than having his own DLC. Much like CA wasted Volkmar's potential with the Grand Theogenists uninspiring new mechanic there is a very real risk they will waste the potential of Kurt Helborg. It is modders that will make the Empire great with steel, faith and gunpowder, not CA.
    Unrelated, but as of yesterday playing IE, I noticed that Boris has the Middenland Runefang by default, but one of Volmar's Book of Nagash reward is legbiter a.k.a. the Middenland Runefang. I now have two middenland runefangs.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,447
    saweendra said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Kinda depends on what you mean by the question. Bretonnians have the better riders in Grail Knights, but it's also worth noting that they also technically have the worst knights in Knights Errant. Empire knights are consistently at at least KotR level since their equivalent of Knights Errant are Pistoliers, but don't reach Grail Knight level.

    If you're asking about who has the scarier heavy cavalry overall, though, the demigryphs push the Empire ahead.

    Unless you care about flying, in which case Bretonnians win by default.

    for the time been yes.

    but with the knight order dlc 100% sure this will change since making a imperial gryphon rider units is super easy , and easy money and by default empire gryphons are stronger
    Eh, I don't think CA is going to go and break asymmetry that far. One of the Empire's weaknesses is that they're ground-based apart from characters. I wouldn't even give even odds on a 'knight order' DLC myself, let alone introducing something that the Empire really shouldn't have. If they throw factional asymmetry out that much, it's time for High Elves to get the artillery they have in Man-o-War and in the fluff.
  • Guillermidas#6283Guillermidas#6283 MadridRegistered Users Posts: 536
    edited August 2022
    Bretonnians
    Krabbz said:

    In game, Empire.


    Ive seen tournaments be won with many small to medium sized units of cheap knights errants (by poor players). The lance formation and price for them made them roll whole lines. One of the most OP spams in the tt. In class with ratling guns in 7th edition or later edition daemons (but here the whole list was OP).

    We once for lolz tried to counter the list with the most OP anti cav list we could think of in my club. It lost more times than it won.

    The spam got banned in many tournaments.

    What was that cavalry counter? I play Warhammer Reforged, lore-friendly fanmade based on 6th-8th with my brother and friends, but I find the Bretonnian player usually spamming at least 5 cheap cav units which is annoying to say the least.

    I play Lizardmen (these are okey-ish against them), sometimes Ogres, which get wrecked.
    "It's small, filthy and noisy. H! Just like a dwarf!"
  • Tennisgolfboll#5877Tennisgolfboll#5877 Registered Users Posts: 13,492
    edited August 2022
    Draxynnic said:


    Lol yes. A whole empire knights army was trash.

    All knights, yes, but I recall Knights of the Holy Cannonball being a thing. I think it involved knights filling the core, cannons, two steam tanks, and a War Altar.
    Yeah but you just filled up on min core and the knights were just forced basic troops and then you went and got the good stuff with cannons, steamtank and magic.
    It needs to be pointed out that what people call "cheese" is just playing the game the way it actually exists not in some fictional way they think it is supposed to work.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,590
    Empire
    Draxynnic said:

    saweendra said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Kinda depends on what you mean by the question. Bretonnians have the better riders in Grail Knights, but it's also worth noting that they also technically have the worst knights in Knights Errant. Empire knights are consistently at at least KotR level since their equivalent of Knights Errant are Pistoliers, but don't reach Grail Knight level.

    If you're asking about who has the scarier heavy cavalry overall, though, the demigryphs push the Empire ahead.

    Unless you care about flying, in which case Bretonnians win by default.

    for the time been yes.

    but with the knight order dlc 100% sure this will change since making a imperial gryphon rider units is super easy , and easy money and by default empire gryphons are stronger
    Eh, I don't think CA is going to go and break asymmetry that far. One of the Empire's weaknesses is that they're ground-based apart from characters. I wouldn't even give even odds on a 'knight order' DLC myself, let alone introducing something that the Empire really shouldn't have. If they throw factional asymmetry out that much, it's time for High Elves to get the artillery they have in Man-o-War and in the fluff.
    I mean its cheap super cheap . And make empire players really happy.

    The units that i think gonna sneak there way due pure cheapness to sell dlc are
    And empire fans are lot more vocal and gets more traction due to popularity than other races. And they are not really happy wirh lack of doom stacks they can use.


    Every now and than you get threads saying how unfair its to fight specilist races


    The cheap stuff i think that will make it.
    Sons of ulric ( skin wolf reskin)
    Carmine dragons( cheap dragon reskin)
    And gryphon dragon order( again its cheap)


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,447
    saweendra said:

    Draxynnic said:

    saweendra said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Kinda depends on what you mean by the question. Bretonnians have the better riders in Grail Knights, but it's also worth noting that they also technically have the worst knights in Knights Errant. Empire knights are consistently at at least KotR level since their equivalent of Knights Errant are Pistoliers, but don't reach Grail Knight level.

    If you're asking about who has the scarier heavy cavalry overall, though, the demigryphs push the Empire ahead.

    Unless you care about flying, in which case Bretonnians win by default.

    for the time been yes.

    but with the knight order dlc 100% sure this will change since making a imperial gryphon rider units is super easy , and easy money and by default empire gryphons are stronger
    Eh, I don't think CA is going to go and break asymmetry that far. One of the Empire's weaknesses is that they're ground-based apart from characters. I wouldn't even give even odds on a 'knight order' DLC myself, let alone introducing something that the Empire really shouldn't have. If they throw factional asymmetry out that much, it's time for High Elves to get the artillery they have in Man-o-War and in the fluff.
    I mean its cheap super cheap . And make empire players really happy.

    The units that i think gonna sneak there way due pure cheapness to sell dlc are
    And empire fans are lot more vocal and gets more traction due to popularity than other races. And they are not really happy wirh lack of doom stacks they can use.


    Every now and than you get threads saying how unfair its to fight specilist races


    The cheap stuff i think that will make it.
    Sons of ulric ( skin wolf reskin)
    Carmine dragons( cheap dragon reskin)
    And gryphon dragon order( again its cheap)

    Seems pretty doomer to me. There's plenty of stuff that fits the Empire better to fit two DLCs, and most of that is also on the cheaper side.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,590
    Empire
    Draxynnic said:

    saweendra said:

    Draxynnic said:

    saweendra said:

    Draxynnic said:

    Kinda depends on what you mean by the question. Bretonnians have the better riders in Grail Knights, but it's also worth noting that they also technically have the worst knights in Knights Errant. Empire knights are consistently at at least KotR level since their equivalent of Knights Errant are Pistoliers, but don't reach Grail Knight level.

    If you're asking about who has the scarier heavy cavalry overall, though, the demigryphs push the Empire ahead.

    Unless you care about flying, in which case Bretonnians win by default.

    for the time been yes.

    but with the knight order dlc 100% sure this will change since making a imperial gryphon rider units is super easy , and easy money and by default empire gryphons are stronger
    Eh, I don't think CA is going to go and break asymmetry that far. One of the Empire's weaknesses is that they're ground-based apart from characters. I wouldn't even give even odds on a 'knight order' DLC myself, let alone introducing something that the Empire really shouldn't have. If they throw factional asymmetry out that much, it's time for High Elves to get the artillery they have in Man-o-War and in the fluff.
    I mean its cheap super cheap . And make empire players really happy.

    The units that i think gonna sneak there way due pure cheapness to sell dlc are
    And empire fans are lot more vocal and gets more traction due to popularity than other races. And they are not really happy wirh lack of doom stacks they can use.


    Every now and than you get threads saying how unfair its to fight specilist races


    The cheap stuff i think that will make it.
    Sons of ulric ( skin wolf reskin)
    Carmine dragons( cheap dragon reskin)
    And gryphon dragon order( again its cheap)

    Seems pretty doomer to me. There's plenty of stuff that fits the Empire better to fit two DLCs, and most of that is also on the cheaper side.
    Yes i agree. But i 100% expect a reply that says how each of these are good addition.


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • ArtagnanArtagnan Registered Users Posts: 56
    Bretonnians
    Lore-wise it should be bretonnia, but in-game as the balance is now? The Empire
  • Zynister#9025Zynister#9025 Registered Users Posts: 28
    Bretonnians
    I am fairly sure bretonnians knights are better
    When you ad lord buffs and technology
    Plus blessing of the lady


  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 499
    Bretonnians
    afverrall said:

    Its hard for bretonnia to compare to a faction 2 editions ahead of them. In game I find especialy in campagin bretonnian knights completely outperform empire knights, the armoury building does a lot when bretonnia is unified a ward save on all you best cavalry from temeple tithes and good red skill line.

    I find imperial knights perform a role in a larger army whilst bret knights carry the army. This is completly fine as the empire has many, many good options in battle.

    Also I find Hippogriff knighs and royal pegasus knights are more useful than demis mid- late game in my experience.

    Hipppogriff knnights are one of the strongest units in the game.
  • Prkl8r#9998Prkl8r#9998 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,242
    saweendra said:

    KIT1986 said:

    The Bretonian cav. is better in general but the demis are souhld be superior caus they sloughter horess.

    Krabbz said:

    In game, Empire.

    In lore, Bretonnia.

    Shows how poorly Bretonnia is in game.

    Why is the Empires cav. better?
    Demigryphs better


    78 speed with 110 armor for normal cav better


    Its the same tt as well demis are stronger

    And they have better support cav in outsiders..etc.

    And have plenty of weapon variety in knightly orders yet to be fully implemented



    The only place bret knights are better is in lore.
    In tt they were good empire better due to demis.
    Nazjax said:

    Lore question or in the game ?

    Because technicaly demigryffons beat grail knights and guardians.
    But knights of the realm are just better than empire knights and reiksguard.
    Bretonnia knights are more cost efficient and have more variety.

    PS : Boost Bretonnia (and HE) horses speed like Empire please.

    In the lore... you already know the answer I guess...

    Knights of the realm loose to rekisguard

    Grail knights can loose to knights of the blazing sun given the right conditions in wh2 not sure on wh 3.
    iirc Demis were added in later editions that Bretonnia never got. That's why Bretonnia sucks, though if they had actually been updated, they probably would have gotten stuff to make them better.
  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 499
    Bretonnians
    Prkl8r said:

    saweendra said:

    KIT1986 said:

    The Bretonian cav. is better in general but the demis are souhld be superior caus they sloughter horess.

    Krabbz said:

    In game, Empire.

    In lore, Bretonnia.

    Shows how poorly Bretonnia is in game.

    Why is the Empires cav. better?
    Demigryphs better


    78 speed with 110 armor for normal cav better


    Its the same tt as well demis are stronger

    And they have better support cav in outsiders..etc.

    And have plenty of weapon variety in knightly orders yet to be fully implemented



    The only place bret knights are better is in lore.
    In tt they were good empire better due to demis.
    Nazjax said:

    Lore question or in the game ?

    Because technicaly demigryffons beat grail knights and guardians.
    But knights of the realm are just better than empire knights and reiksguard.
    Bretonnia knights are more cost efficient and have more variety.

    PS : Boost Bretonnia (and HE) horses speed like Empire please.

    In the lore... you already know the answer I guess...

    Knights of the realm loose to rekisguard

    Grail knights can loose to knights of the blazing sun given the right conditions in wh2 not sure on wh 3.
    iirc Demis were added in later editions that Bretonnia never got. That's why Bretonnia sucks, though if they had actually been updated, they probably would have gotten stuff to make them better.
    But Demis are monstrous cav. You can compare them to hippogryph knights which are more useful during endgame.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,590
    Empire
    KIT1986 said:

    Prkl8r said:

    saweendra said:

    KIT1986 said:

    The Bretonian cav. is better in general but the demis are souhld be superior caus they sloughter horess.

    Krabbz said:

    In game, Empire.

    In lore, Bretonnia.

    Shows how poorly Bretonnia is in game.

    Why is the Empires cav. better?
    Demigryphs better


    78 speed with 110 armor for normal cav better


    Its the same tt as well demis are stronger

    And they have better support cav in outsiders..etc.

    And have plenty of weapon variety in knightly orders yet to be fully implemented



    The only place bret knights are better is in lore.
    In tt they were good empire better due to demis.
    Nazjax said:

    Lore question or in the game ?

    Because technicaly demigryffons beat grail knights and guardians.
    But knights of the realm are just better than empire knights and reiksguard.
    Bretonnia knights are more cost efficient and have more variety.

    PS : Boost Bretonnia (and HE) horses speed like Empire please.

    In the lore... you already know the answer I guess...

    Knights of the realm loose to rekisguard

    Grail knights can loose to knights of the blazing sun given the right conditions in wh2 not sure on wh 3.
    iirc Demis were added in later editions that Bretonnia never got. That's why Bretonnia sucks, though if they had actually been updated, they probably would have gotten stuff to make them better.
    But Demis are monstrous cav. You can compare them to hippogryph knights which are more useful during endgame.
    Not the same, you don't use hyppogryph knights for cavalary domination.

    We are talking about cav domination how cav stack up to each other 1v1


    Empire or any race with bvL ap monsters cav bar wood elfs beat bretonnia in terms of cav power.


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • bli-nk#6314bli-nk#6314 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,980
    edited August 2022
    Bretonnians
    Empire advantages- Demigryphs and Outriders.

    Bretonnia advantages- Grail knights, KotR(cost effectiveness), Hippogryphs, Pegasus.

    Only thing Bretonnia needs is updated speeds but the difference isn't huge but there is no reason Bretonnia should be slower speed. TT Bretonnia was slightly faster than most Empire cavalry and definitely were faster in the lore.
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society.” Mark Twain
  • Prkl8r#9998Prkl8r#9998 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,242
    KIT1986 said:

    Prkl8r said:

    saweendra said:

    KIT1986 said:

    The Bretonian cav. is better in general but the demis are souhld be superior caus they sloughter horess.

    Krabbz said:

    In game, Empire.

    In lore, Bretonnia.

    Shows how poorly Bretonnia is in game.

    Why is the Empires cav. better?
    Demigryphs better


    78 speed with 110 armor for normal cav better


    Its the same tt as well demis are stronger

    And they have better support cav in outsiders..etc.

    And have plenty of weapon variety in knightly orders yet to be fully implemented



    The only place bret knights are better is in lore.
    In tt they were good empire better due to demis.
    Nazjax said:

    Lore question or in the game ?

    Because technicaly demigryffons beat grail knights and guardians.
    But knights of the realm are just better than empire knights and reiksguard.
    Bretonnia knights are more cost efficient and have more variety.

    PS : Boost Bretonnia (and HE) horses speed like Empire please.

    In the lore... you already know the answer I guess...

    Knights of the realm loose to rekisguard

    Grail knights can loose to knights of the blazing sun given the right conditions in wh2 not sure on wh 3.
    iirc Demis were added in later editions that Bretonnia never got. That's why Bretonnia sucks, though if they had actually been updated, they probably would have gotten stuff to make them better.
    But Demis are monstrous cav. You can compare them to hippogryph knights which are more useful during endgame.
    Pretty sure Demis beat hippos in a 1v1. I think the only unit Bret has that can beat Halbred Demis in a 1v1 is maybe the RoR questing knight unit...maybe. I imagine it's similar for Kislev War Bear Riders and Skullcrushers too.
  • Helhound#7332Helhound#7332 Registered Users Posts: 5,375
    edited August 2022
    Honestly the only place Bretonnia has ever beat out Empire Cav is in the lore. A casualty of falling behind in the TT editions. Empire Cav kept getting better 6-8th edition. Bret Cav never moved.

    Having said that I'm fully on board with the idea that Bret Cav should be better than Empire Cav. I think the place to do that isn't in statistics though, don't mind if they lose the 1v1, but beat them out by being far more cost effective. We already see this in game with KotR being just straight up better value point for point than Empire Knights. Regardless of who wins the 1v1, Cav trade value should favor Bretonnia.
  • Prkl8r#9998Prkl8r#9998 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,242
    edited August 2022
    Helhound said:

    Honestly the only place Bretonnia has ever beat out Empire Cav is in the lore. A casualty of falling behind in the TT editions. Empire Cav kept getting better 6-8th edition. Bret Cav never moved.

    Having said that I'm fully on board with the idea that Bret Cav should be better than Empire Cav. I think the place to do that isn't in statistics though, don't mind if they lose the 1v1, but beat them out by being far more cost effective. We already see this in game with KotR being just straight up better value point for point than Empire Knights. Regardless of who wins the 1v1, Cav trade value should favor Bretonnia.

    Cost effectiveness is only a way to balance MP. In campaign any unit balanced around cost effectiveness is just going to be bad in comparison to units that aren't because you only have 20 slots in an army and by late game you don't care about cost effectiveness, you just want the best.

    This is why a lot of people consider full Hippo doomstacks the only viable late game army for Bretonnia.
  • Helhound#7332Helhound#7332 Registered Users Posts: 5,375
    edited August 2022
    Prkl8r said:

    Helhound said:

    Honestly the only place Bretonnia has ever beat out Empire Cav is in the lore. A casualty of falling behind in the TT editions. Empire Cav kept getting better 6-8th edition. Bret Cav never moved.

    Having said that I'm fully on board with the idea that Bret Cav should be better than Empire Cav. I think the place to do that isn't in statistics though, don't mind if they lose the 1v1, but beat them out by being far more cost effective. We already see this in game with KotR being just straight up better value point for point than Empire Knights. Regardless of who wins the 1v1, Cav trade value should favor Bretonnia.

    Cost effectiveness is only a way to balance MP. In campaign any unit balanced around cost effectiveness is just going to be bad in comparison to units that aren't because you only have 20 slots in an army and by late game you don't care about cost effectiveness, you just want the best.

    This is why a lot of people consider full Hippo doomstacks the only viable late game army for Bretonnia.
    That's just not the case anymore. Before when fielding multiple stacks would incur an immediate penalty focusing on the 20 stacks was king. Now it's far less important. For example Kossars for Kislev will form the bulk of your forces across the map due to how cost effective they are. Efficient in melee, efficient at a distance, can spawn enough of them to be everywhere on the map at once. Same applies to Bret Knights. Even without the free Knights glitch, which you shouldn't abuse if you can help it, Bretonnia can field veritable swarms of Knights that trade up against nearly any other Cav in the game. Getting more bang for every single gold coin of upkeep has never been more important than it is in Warhammer 3 since supply lines just isn't a thing. Has never been a thing for Bretonnia. Can't win with just one 20 stack? Bring two for the price of one of theirs and because your stuff is better pound for pound, advantage is yours even before we consider how difficult it is to stop 40 units of Cav from running you over. Doomstacking < Crapstacking in TWW3 for most factions.
  • Prkl8r#9998Prkl8r#9998 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,242
    Helhound said:

    Prkl8r said:

    Helhound said:

    Honestly the only place Bretonnia has ever beat out Empire Cav is in the lore. A casualty of falling behind in the TT editions. Empire Cav kept getting better 6-8th edition. Bret Cav never moved.

    Having said that I'm fully on board with the idea that Bret Cav should be better than Empire Cav. I think the place to do that isn't in statistics though, don't mind if they lose the 1v1, but beat them out by being far more cost effective. We already see this in game with KotR being just straight up better value point for point than Empire Knights. Regardless of who wins the 1v1, Cav trade value should favor Bretonnia.

    Cost effectiveness is only a way to balance MP. In campaign any unit balanced around cost effectiveness is just going to be bad in comparison to units that aren't because you only have 20 slots in an army and by late game you don't care about cost effectiveness, you just want the best.

    This is why a lot of people consider full Hippo doomstacks the only viable late game army for Bretonnia.
    That's just not the case anymore. Before when fielding multiple stacks would incur an immediate penalty focusing on the 20 stacks was king. Now it's far less important. For example Kossars for Kislev will form the bulk of your forces across the map due to how cost effective they are. Efficient in melee, efficient at a distance, can spawn enough of them to be everywhere on the map at once. Same applies to Bret Knights. Even without the free Knights glitch, which you shouldn't abuse if you can help it, Bretonnia can field veritable swarms of Knights that trade up against nearly any other Cav in the game. Getting more bang for every single gold coin of upkeep has never been more important than it is in Warhammer 3 since supply lines just isn't a thing. Has never been a thing for Bretonnia. Can't win with just one 20 stack? Bring two for the price of one of theirs and because your stuff is better pound for pound, advantage is yours even before we consider how difficult it is to stop 40 units of Cav from running you over. Doomstacking < Crapstacking in TWW3 for most factions.
    Supply lines were never a thing for Bretonnia, and even in the past, Hyppo doomstacks was considered the only viable endgame option.

    If anything, supply lines being less taxing to other races has made Bretonnia's one big advantage not as big a of thing.
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