Bretonnia cavalry needs a massive update and power up

Artagnan

Bretonnia's entire shtick is supposed to be that they have amazing cavalry, at the cost of every single other aspect of their roster being "meh" or "adequate" at best.

1. Their archers don't have armour-piercing nor great damage (and they are horrible in melee)
   
2. their infantry barely rise above "speed bump" for any faction with good infantry (even their "elite" foot squires are worse than empire's greatswords, and the pilgrims are absolute poop comapred to kislev's armoured kossars, despite kossars ALSO having a ranged attack and being recruited one tier sooner)
   
3. They have a single artillery piece with the trebuchet (technically two with its Blessed variant) which is adequate damage-wise, but very unprecise
   
4. Their Damsels/Prophetesses are okay spellcasters, but just comparable to an empire wizard rather than any particularly good themselves.
   
5. Their paladins/Lords are competent melee fighters, but again nothing to write much about.
   

So, with all that, their cavalry has to be the very best in the game, right?
It's not.
Someone did the comparison, but to keep things short:
Out of every single race's "elite cavalary" unit, grail Knights, supposed to be the very best of bretonnia, the ones that require a tier 5 building and all vows to field?
They only beat Cold One Knights (but not Dread Knights Cold ones), Dragon Princes and Undivided Chaos Knights.
For what is supposed to be the very best/second best/third best (dependign on how you count Royal pegasi and hippogryph knights) cavalry unit in a faction that is wholly focused on cavalry.
that is absolutely unnaceptable, considerign all these other faction have things besides cavalry to support their roster.

saweendra#3399

Their cav imo is perfect for the cost point.

The issue dumb buff in wh 3 to winged lancers( yes disagree with me horse thives) , empire knights , jade lancers ..etc for speed


And them not having some thing like demis with helberds or bear cav.

Aka monstrous cav with ap and bvL.

Or bunch of support units ( i like this option)

Also to rework grail tier knights to lower model count so less damage more survivability . But i also get why CA has not done this since there equals are not in need of this like blood knights also no budget or love to brets.

Honestly there is more chance that rekisguard get bvL than bretonnia gets a buff.

ThibixMagnus#8300

winning 1v1 is not the only comparison factor, the great thing about GK is perfect vigor so things do change after a long battle, but they probably still need something.

In general I wouldn't understand if CA wasn't already working on a roster update but postponing it as they said about other factions too. And if the changes were to be extensive and require further testing, it would explain the lack of updates.

They have also shown that they are willing to use new toys for older factions, such as slann having barrier. I could see a Prayer mechanic like a waaagh giving all knights a temporary barrier for example. And lance formation buffing mass when charging, as the skullcrusher RoR.

saweendra#3399

ThibixMagnus said:

winning 1v1 is not the only comparison factor, the great thing about GK is perfect vigor so things do change after a long battle, but they probably still need something.

In general I wouldn't understand if CA wasn't already working on a roster update but postponing it as they said about other factions too. And if the changes were to be extensive and require further testing, it would explain the lack of updates.

They have also shown that they are willing to use new toys for older factions, such as slann having barrier. I could see a Prayer mechanic like a waaagh giving all knights a temporary barrier for example. And lance formation buffing mass when charging, as the skullcrusher RoR.

Of course winning 1 v1 is not important but when your advertised as the cav faction and every time you see.


Necropolis knights helberd
Demis helberd
Bear cav
Jaggurnat cav
Crushers gw

...wtc.


And your basic instinct is to run from them get 2 questing knights for 2v 1 fight

Feels bad man..

Feels bad

ThibixMagnus#8300

saweendra said:

ThibixMagnus said:

winning 1v1 is not the only comparison factor, the great thing about GK is perfect vigor so things do change after a long battle, but they probably still need something.

In general I wouldn't understand if CA wasn't already working on a roster update but postponing it as they said about other factions too. And if the changes were to be extensive and require further testing, it would explain the lack of updates.

They have also shown that they are willing to use new toys for older factions, such as slann having barrier. I could see a Prayer mechanic like a waaagh giving all knights a temporary barrier for example. And lance formation buffing mass when charging, as the skullcrusher RoR.

Of course winning 1 v1 is not important but when your advertised as the cav faction and every time you see.


Necropolis knights helberd
Demis helberd
Bear cav
Jaggurnat cav
Crushers gw

...wtc.


And your basic instinct is to run from them get 2 questing knights for 2v 1 fight

Feels bad man..

Feels bad

I agree it's not ideal that QK are anti-elite and GK are the best chaff clearers. But to change that you need to redesign GK with more AP or AL, and raise them a tier (in the 1800s) to avoid roster overlap. I'm personally not fond of the "fewer models" option, it doesn't tend to be a buff and I like high tier regiments with many models. For grail guardians maybe.

In any case I am concerned about Bretonnia being able to deploy large amounts of cavalry and keeping some cavalry identity despite the strong Kislev competition, beyond the case of grail knights only. Thus the more faction-wide mechanics such as the Prayer (one of the very first and only "army abilities" in TT but that didn't make it in total war) and the lance formation being actually useful and iconic.

saweendra#3399

ThibixMagnus said:

saweendra said:

ThibixMagnus said:

winning 1v1 is not the only comparison factor, the great thing about GK is perfect vigor so things do change after a long battle, but they probably still need something.

In general I wouldn't understand if CA wasn't already working on a roster update but postponing it as they said about other factions too. And if the changes were to be extensive and require further testing, it would explain the lack of updates.

They have also shown that they are willing to use new toys for older factions, such as slann having barrier. I could see a Prayer mechanic like a waaagh giving all knights a temporary barrier for example. And lance formation buffing mass when charging, as the skullcrusher RoR.

Of course winning 1 v1 is not important but when your advertised as the cav faction and every time you see.


Necropolis knights helberd
Demis helberd
Bear cav
Jaggurnat cav
Crushers gw

...wtc.


And your basic instinct is to run from them get 2 questing knights for 2v 1 fight

Feels bad man..

Feels bad

I agree it's not ideal that QK are anti-elite and GK are the best chaff clearers. But to change that you need to redesign GK with more AP or AL, and raise them a tier (in the 1800s) to avoid roster overlap. I'm personally not fond of the "fewer models" option, it doesn't tend to be a buff and I like high tier regiments with many models. For grail guardians maybe.

In any case I am concerned about Bretonnia being able to deploy large amounts of cavalry and keeping some cavalry identity despite the strong Kislev competition, beyond the case of grail knights only. Thus the more faction-wide mechanics such as the Prayer (one of the very first and only "army abilities" in TT but that didn't make it in total war) and the lance formation being actually useful and iconic.

I don't think grail knights need to be changed if the change is not applied the same with blood knights and chaos knights

Because than it would be un lorefull and bad . And i am not kislev fan who pretend unloreful op trash is good.

What i want is either a monstrous cav that can face charge these units or my favorite more support cav with lot of support abilities to make knights as a whole to be good.


Cost effectiveness isn't my biggest concern since there is very little i can not handle by spamming qk or knights of the realm or peasent archers .

But i want is some cool **** so i can style on the battle feild.

Artagnan

saweendra said:

I don't think grail knights need to be changed if the change is not applied the same with blood knights and chaos knights

Because than it would be un lorefull and bad . And i am not kislev fan who pretend unloreful op trash is good.

What i want is either a monstrous cav that can face charge these units or my favorite more support cav with lot of support abilities to make knights as a whole to be good.


Cost effectiveness isn't my biggest concern since there is very little i can not handle by spamming qk or knights of the realm or peasent archers .

But i want is some cool **** so i can style on the battle feild.

Problem is that vampires have good monsters and amazing magic/competent infantry to rely on if their cavalry isn't the best. Chaos have great infantry, monsters, sheer adaptability with their rework...

Cavalry is ALL that Bretonnia has. It's why they sacrifice the rest of their roster, so if their cavalry isn't the very best of the roster, why bother with the faction at all?

saweendra#3399

Artagnan said:

saweendra said:

I don't think grail knights need to be changed if the change is not applied the same with blood knights and chaos knights

Because than it would be un lorefull and bad . And i am not kislev fan who pretend unloreful op trash is good.

What i want is either a monstrous cav that can face charge these units or my favorite more support cav with lot of support abilities to make knights as a whole to be good.


Cost effectiveness isn't my biggest concern since there is very little i can not handle by spamming qk or knights of the realm or peasent archers .

But i want is some cool **** so i can style on the battle feild.

Problem is that vampires have good monsters and amazing magic/competent infantry to rely on if their cavalry isn't the best. Chaos have great infantry, monsters, sheer adaptability with their rework...

Cavalry is ALL that Bretonnia has. It's why they sacrifice the rest of their roster, so if their cavalry isn't the very best of the roster, why bother with the faction at all?

Because its flc. Thats literally why CA don't care.

Honestly what brets need is a dlc that adds new cav.

With out breaking the established lore.

But there infantry is the absolutely among the best at chain routing so its the other reason to play them. Its absolutely fun seeing your entire front line just run and going this gonna be fine.
edit infantry wise there not bad cost effective. archers are pretty much among the most cost effective units , trebs are not bad . all and all its average , just not THE cavalry faction

Bohemond_Beastslayer#3117

I feel like Bretonnian archers are fine. 400 gold with same AP as High Elf archers, decent unit when compared to other human races:

Bret archers 3ap, 160 range, 90 models
Empire archers 2ap, 120 range, 90 models
Cathay archers 1ap, 140 range, 120 models.

Their infantry has always got smashed, and rightly so. Unwashed peasants getting sent to block the enemy for a few seconds for the knights to gloriously ride to victory is peak Bretonnia, and exactly what they deserve.

If Bretonnia ever wants any meaningful changes or buffs, it needs to be in the cavalry department. How strong a grail knight should be is a tough question, and one I can't answer. Should they beat Ogre Crushers and Skullcrushers? If they going to, how are factions like wood elves going to handle such a unit?
Probably better to look at units like Knight's Errant and Knights of the Realm and give the low/mid tier cav some extra punch.

saweendra#3399

Markrox said:

I feel like Bretonnian archers are fine. 400 gold with same AP as High Elf archers, decent unit when compared to other human races:

Bret archers 3ap, 160 range, 90 models
Empire archers 2ap, 120 range, 90 models
Cathay archers 1ap, 140 range, 120 models.

Their infantry has always got smashed, and rightly so. Unwashed peasants getting sent to block the enemy for a few seconds for the knights to gloriously ride to victory is peak Bretonnia, and exactly what they deserve.

If Bretonnia ever wants any meaningful changes or buffs, it needs to be in the cavalry department. How strong a grail knight should be is a tough question, and one I can't answer. Should they beat Ogre Crushers and Skullcrushers? If they going to, how are factions like wood elves going to handle such a unit?
Probably better to look at units like Knight's Errant and Knights of the Realm and give the low/mid tier cav some extra punch.

Markrox said:

I feel like Bretonnian archers are fine. 400 gold with same AP as High Elf archers, decent unit when compared to other human races:

Bret archers 3ap, 160 range, 90 models
Empire archers 2ap, 120 range, 90 models
Cathay archers 1ap, 140 range, 120 models.

Their infantry has always got smashed, and rightly so. Unwashed peasants getting sent to block the enemy for a few seconds for the knights to gloriously ride to victory is peak Bretonnia, and exactly what they deserve.

If Bretonnia ever wants any meaningful changes or buffs, it needs to be in the cavalry department. How strong a grail knight should be is a tough question, and one I can't answer. Should they beat Ogre Crushers and Skullcrushers? If they going to, how are factions like wood elves going to handle such a unit?
Probably better to look at units like Knight's Errant and Knights of the Realm and give the low/mid tier cav some extra punch.

these guys on pure lore basis killed all sorts of daemons , dragons and **** before they became grail knights

on a power level there only equal is chaos knights and blood knights.
and yes lore wise they would kill a bear or demi gryph and the rider with out breaking sweat

OK crusher would make them sweat but shouldn't be a problem lore wise but it was not the case TT wise so i doubt it will be the case for this game as well

glosskilos#4009

Giving brettonia dismounted knights as an infantry choice would help them a lot.

Spellbound1875#4610

ThibixMagnus said:

saweendra said:

ThibixMagnus said:

winning 1v1 is not the only comparison factor, the great thing about GK is perfect vigor so things do change after a long battle, but they probably still need something.

In general I wouldn't understand if CA wasn't already working on a roster update but postponing it as they said about other factions too. And if the changes were to be extensive and require further testing, it would explain the lack of updates.

They have also shown that they are willing to use new toys for older factions, such as slann having barrier. I could see a Prayer mechanic like a waaagh giving all knights a temporary barrier for example. And lance formation buffing mass when charging, as the skullcrusher RoR.

Of course winning 1 v1 is not important but when your advertised as the cav faction and every time you see.


Necropolis knights helberd
Demis helberd
Bear cav
Jaggurnat cav
Crushers gw

...wtc.


And your basic instinct is to run from them get 2 questing knights for 2v 1 fight

Feels bad man..

Feels bad

I agree it's not ideal that QK are anti-elite and GK are the best chaff clearers. But to change that you need to redesign GK with more AP or AL, and raise them a tier (in the 1800s) to avoid roster overlap. I'm personally not fond of the "fewer models" option, it doesn't tend to be a buff and I like high tier regiments with many models. For grail guardians maybe.

In any case I am concerned about Bretonnia being able to deploy large amounts of cavalry and keeping some cavalry identity despite the strong Kislev competition, beyond the case of grail knights only. Thus the more faction-wide mechanics such as the Prayer (one of the very first and only "army abilities" in TT but that didn't make it in total war) and the lance formation being actually useful and iconic.

I don't think you'd need to redesign Grail Knights, just boost their WS a bit. We know normal cavalry can be effective even against monstrous cavalry given how Seekers of Slaanesh and Heartseekers perform. Bloodknights got a WS buff without a price increase this patch (+5 base, +2 AP) and you could give Grail Knights a similar treatment (I'd probably go 2 base, 5 AP since they have lower BvL) to keep pace. This would also give Grail Knights about a 44% AP split making them more generalist which I think would be useful for the roster. Bret and Vampires have cavalry as their highest tier unit so they should be more offensively capable than the cavalry of factions with monstrous options.

In a similar vein I'd buff Grail Guardian WS by 4 (to 40 total). Could be entirely base damage if CA desired but these guys should hit a bit harder in sustained combat. They're solidly tanky as is but it's a bit hard to justify taking them in most match ups given without a damage threat tankiness is questionably valuable.

Beyond that I'd wait for some bug fixes and nerfs to other factions before doing anything too drastic (the barded mount speed bug is one noteworthy example*). Their archers are good for the price, their infantry is still largely okay by cost (foot squires could probably use some help and if you're talking dom CA needs to remove the expendable capture weight penalty from the men-at-arms units), while units like Questing Knights and Knights of the Realm are still offensively ahead of anything else in their price range.

Barded mount bug explanation for those who are interested

When CA changed the empire hero/lord mount options they put the unbarded speed value of 78 onto the barded cavalry tag, without checking which units relied on that speed. The result is all empire cavalry are 78 speed, all Cathay cavalry and lord/hero mounts are 78 speed, and all of the vampire counts necromancer lords and heroes have 78 speed on their barded nightmares. Bret, Kislev, the High Elves, Barded Black Knights, the Wight King, and Blood Knights all had unique speed values already so they weren't impacted by the change. CA just needs to change the Barded Warhorse value to 66 and the problem is solved.

The_real_FAUST#6885

You do know Hip knights exist don't you?

Comparing tier 5 cav, they are very good

yst#1879

Yep, sums up bret as a faction pretty nicely.

A supposed cav faction, yet having mediocre or even sub par cav
and worse in every single thing else

As for grail guardians, they r now inferior than any of those gods chaos sword knights while costing $100 more, they were already mediocre prior and now fallen heavily behind.

Grail lance r just subpar really, already struggles even against regular chaos knight lance, they even lose decisively to drag prince if it wasnt for that phy resist and magic.


Really subpar cav, frankly they r just below average, all that as an anti large. U know they just outright suck fighting anything else when they r this useless against a target they r suppose to be good at, getting thru enemy phy resist with their magic.

Whats worse this is a $1500 anti large cav vs a $1400 regular cav

yst#1879

I think theres one thing that has never been mentioned before, or that ive never ever seen it written all these years.

Is that of ladys blessing. I believe given all the changes all the way to war 1 to now war 3. It is now a very weak........... "racial" as u lose it after breaking, where as some non cav faction like those above have theirs permanently.

Bret r a faction that runs entirely on ladys blessing in game and in lore, 20% is **** poor, now even more so with the abundance of magic.

What needs to improve now is
Ladys blessing needs to be stronger, giving up to 30% phy resist or so for bret to be able to meet the new challenges ahead

That and really, its time to stop trolling bret and give that blessed treb a -$150 cut or simply give them scatter/multi shot, scalling the dmg obviously

Pray#3234

saweendra said:

Markrox said:

I feel like Bretonnian archers are fine. 400 gold with same AP as High Elf archers, decent unit when compared to other human races:

Bret archers 3ap, 160 range, 90 models
Empire archers 2ap, 120 range, 90 models
Cathay archers 1ap, 140 range, 120 models.

Their infantry has always got smashed, and rightly so. Unwashed peasants getting sent to block the enemy for a few seconds for the knights to gloriously ride to victory is peak Bretonnia, and exactly what they deserve.

If Bretonnia ever wants any meaningful changes or buffs, it needs to be in the cavalry department. How strong a grail knight should be is a tough question, and one I can't answer. Should they beat Ogre Crushers and Skullcrushers? If they going to, how are factions like wood elves going to handle such a unit?
Probably better to look at units like Knight's Errant and Knights of the Realm and give the low/mid tier cav some extra punch.

Markrox said:

I feel like Bretonnian archers are fine. 400 gold with same AP as High Elf archers, decent unit when compared to other human races:

Bret archers 3ap, 160 range, 90 models
Empire archers 2ap, 120 range, 90 models
Cathay archers 1ap, 140 range, 120 models.

Their infantry has always got smashed, and rightly so. Unwashed peasants getting sent to block the enemy for a few seconds for the knights to gloriously ride to victory is peak Bretonnia, and exactly what they deserve.

If Bretonnia ever wants any meaningful changes or buffs, it needs to be in the cavalry department. How strong a grail knight should be is a tough question, and one I can't answer. Should they beat Ogre Crushers and Skullcrushers? If they going to, how are factions like wood elves going to handle such a unit?
Probably better to look at units like Knight's Errant and Knights of the Realm and give the low/mid tier cav some extra punch.

these guys on pure lore basis killed all sorts of daemons , dragons and **** before they became grail knights

on a power level there only equal is chaos knights and blood knights.
and yes lore wise they would kill a bear or demi gryph and the rider with out breaking sweat

OK crusher would make them sweat but shouldn't be a problem lore wise but it was not the case TT wise so i doubt it will be the case for this game as well

what are you talking about ?

Kill a daemon is way easier than Tame A DEMIGRYPH .

and how do you know those Demigryph Knight can't kill Deamon or Dragon ? ( in lore they can kill Gorghon or Blakc ork breaking sweat )

If Grailknight are strong like you claim Empire would be have super hard time to deal with Chosen by you math

" on a power level there only equal is chaos knights and blood knights "

however those just Reikguard can deal with Chaos knight and Blood knight .

your logic is non sense TBH .

Let's be honest in real word avg fighter who have Sword could kill bear or Lion . but tame a Lion ?

that's different world

Pray#3234

The two leaders clashed swords and begun their duel. The Viscount was able to match the fury and strength of the Reiksmarshal and add his own. All the while d’Alembençon never said a word, the unbroken silence of his fighting quickly becoming eerie. Helborg found himself wondering if some awful deception had taken place; that perhaps his foe was something more or less than human under all that glittering armour. The Viscount's long blade moved quickly and smoothly, carving through the air like a rapier. Helborg fought ferociously, but to no avail. His opponent was unlike anything he had ever fought, whether man or monster. Every strike was a flurry of punishing blows and Helborg slowly started to tire.[1]

Even armed with a legendary Runefang and using every masterful technique at his disposal, nothing had any impact. The Viscount kept on fighting, doggedly resisting every attempt to knock him out of his stride, untiring and unrelenting. Eventually, Helborg let his guard slip, his breast was punctured and his ribs smashed asunder by the Bretonnian's sheer strength. As the Reiksmarshal lay scrambling for his sword, the Viscount approached and pressed his blade against his throat.[1]

And so Kurt Helborg, the Empire's greatest swordsman, was finally defeated

This is from wiki a Grailknight vs Empire greatest Sword man , Helborg lose definitely but it's nothing like this Grailknight is unbeatable .

Before d’Alembençon could kill his opponent, however, the sound of cannonfire surrounded the field. The Imperials had betrayed their deal. Helborg had agreed to the duel as a distraction, for he did not want the battle to end unless it was a victory for the Empire. Shocked and enraged at the sight of his men being blown apart, d’Alembençon was disarmed by Helborg and decapitated, but not before hissing one final word at the Reiksmarshal;[1]

"Faithless!"

Even in death, the Viscount's profile was magnificent. His armour was far finer than any Helborg had seen in the Empire; beside it, his own felt gaudy and overblown. The strange moonlit lustre lingered for a while on his skin, glimmering like silver fire, before finally flickering out.[1]

Drained to his very core, Helborg gazed down at the holy warrior and felt a twinge of regret, before ordering his army to continue the battle.

saweendra#3399

Pray said:

saweendra said:

Markrox said:

I feel like Bretonnian archers are fine. 400 gold with same AP as High Elf archers, decent unit when compared to other human races:

Bret archers 3ap, 160 range, 90 models
Empire archers 2ap, 120 range, 90 models
Cathay archers 1ap, 140 range, 120 models.

Their infantry has always got smashed, and rightly so. Unwashed peasants getting sent to block the enemy for a few seconds for the knights to gloriously ride to victory is peak Bretonnia, and exactly what they deserve.

If Bretonnia ever wants any meaningful changes or buffs, it needs to be in the cavalry department. How strong a grail knight should be is a tough question, and one I can't answer. Should they beat Ogre Crushers and Skullcrushers? If they going to, how are factions like wood elves going to handle such a unit?
Probably better to look at units like Knight's Errant and Knights of the Realm and give the low/mid tier cav some extra punch.

Markrox said:

I feel like Bretonnian archers are fine. 400 gold with same AP as High Elf archers, decent unit when compared to other human races:

Bret archers 3ap, 160 range, 90 models
Empire archers 2ap, 120 range, 90 models
Cathay archers 1ap, 140 range, 120 models.

Their infantry has always got smashed, and rightly so. Unwashed peasants getting sent to block the enemy for a few seconds for the knights to gloriously ride to victory is peak Bretonnia, and exactly what they deserve.

If Bretonnia ever wants any meaningful changes or buffs, it needs to be in the cavalry department. How strong a grail knight should be is a tough question, and one I can't answer. Should they beat Ogre Crushers and Skullcrushers? If they going to, how are factions like wood elves going to handle such a unit?
Probably better to look at units like Knight's Errant and Knights of the Realm and give the low/mid tier cav some extra punch.

these guys on pure lore basis killed all sorts of daemons , dragons and **** before they became grail knights

on a power level there only equal is chaos knights and blood knights.
and yes lore wise they would kill a bear or demi gryph and the rider with out breaking sweat

OK crusher would make them sweat but shouldn't be a problem lore wise but it was not the case TT wise so i doubt it will be the case for this game as well

what are you talking about ?

Kill a daemon is way easier than Tame A DEMIGRYPH .

and how do you know those Demigryph Knight can't kill Deamon or Dragon ? ( in lore they can kill Gorghon or Blakc ork breaking sweat )

If Grailknight are strong like you claim Empire would be have super hard time to deal with Chosen by you math

" on a power level there only equal is chaos knights and blood knights "

however those just Reikguard can deal with Chaos knight and Blood knight .

your logic is non sense TBH .

Let's be honest in real word avg fighter who have Sword could kill bear or Lion . but tame a Lion ?

that's different world

My dude there are power levels in lore and the power level showed by grail knights is far greater than any normal human knight demi or not.

Even wuesting knights manage to kill the stuff they do is because they have blessings to begin with.

They are not human . And the closet fantasy have for space marines.

And your trying to compare a gurdsmen to space marine

Pray said:

The two leaders clashed swords and begun their duel. The Viscount was able to match the fury and strength of the Reiksmarshal and add his own. All the while d’Alembençon never said a word, the unbroken silence of his fighting quickly becoming eerie. Helborg found himself wondering if some awful deception had taken place; that perhaps his foe was something more or less than human under all that glittering armour. The Viscount's long blade moved quickly and smoothly, carving through the air like a rapier. Helborg fought ferociously, but to no avail. His opponent was unlike anything he had ever fought, whether man or monster. Every strike was a flurry of punishing blows and Helborg slowly started to tire.[1]

Even armed with a legendary Runefang and using every masterful technique at his disposal, nothing had any impact. The Viscount kept on fighting, doggedly resisting every attempt to knock him out of his stride, untiring and unrelenting. Eventually, Helborg let his guard slip, his breast was punctured and his ribs smashed asunder by the Bretonnian's sheer strength. As the Reiksmarshal lay scrambling for his sword, the Viscount approached and pressed his blade against his throat.[1]

And so Kurt Helborg, the Empire's greatest swordsman, was finally defeated

This is from wiki a Grailknight vs Empire greatest Sword man , Helborg lose definitely but it's nothing like this Grailknight is unbeatable .

Before d’Alembençon could kill his opponent, however, the sound of cannonfire surrounded the field. The Imperials had betrayed their deal. Helborg had agreed to the duel as a distraction, for he did not want the battle to end unless it was a victory for the Empire. Shocked and enraged at the sight of his men being blown apart, d’Alembençon was disarmed by Helborg and decapitated, but not before hissing one final word at the Reiksmarshal;[1]

"Faithless!"

Even in death, the Viscount's profile was magnificent. His armour was far finer than any Helborg had seen in the Empire; beside it, his own felt gaudy and overblown. The strange moonlit lustre lingered for a while on his skin, glimmering like silver fire, before finally flickering out.[1]

Drained to his very core, Helborg gazed down at the holy warrior and felt a twinge of regret, before ordering his army to continue the battle.

A named character loosing to non important character.

While actuall named character were doing feats only achived by valten or when sigmar possed karl body

tqhung87

Grail Knight is only equal to Chaos Knight in the table top, they got absolutely trashed by Blood Knight, Demi, Skull Crushers. So stop with all these nonsense hype for a faction that even GW has dropped

saweendra#3399

tqhung87 said:

Grail Knight is only equal to Chaos Knight in the table top, they got absolutely trashed by Blood Knight, Demi, Skull Crushers. So stop with all these nonsense hype for a faction that even GW has dropped

sure but they were dropped after 6th in 6th they were the strongest . if they ever got update they would have remained the strongest

Bastilean#7242

Questing Beasts

yst#1879

Snails!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

#21546

100% agree. All Bret Cav need more speed. Normal men at arm's should not be made expendable( so higher capture weight).

Grail Knights should have a slight Buff. They are decent, but considering the roster they should be more than that. They should get higher WS( like +5 AP). Should do the trick.

#210289

Bretonnia would be much better if they had the abiilty to take 8 questing knights per MP game.

They really just lack reliable armor piercing.

Definitely need some updates to their elite cavalry as well, which are hampered by the current Pit of Shades meta.


Frankly, Kislev, High Elf, Bretonnian, and Wood Elf Cavalry looks like it just wasn't updated at all, and my hope is that they all get slated for an additional pass for 2.1

As far as Tabletop goes, Kislevite Cavalry was just as fast or faster than Bretonnian Cavalry. Bretonnian Cavalry just wasn't impeded by horse barding so it wore heavier armor.

So, you need to get that part right. Kislev cavalry is supposed to be almost on par with elven in terms of speed by design if we go by the 6e supplement they recieved.

Bretonnians didn't have the fastest cavalry. Just had the best balance of speed and armor.


So the tier should look roughly like this: Elven > Kislev ≥ Bretonnia > Empire, Cathay, Chaos, > Bears, Demi-Gryphs > Cold Ones.

#210289

I also think Grail knights should recieve spell resistance, to help them survive stuff like vortex or single target spells.

along with a cost reduction. They should be on par or better then Chaos Knights.

saweendra#3399

How on gods green earth kislev is supposed to be equal to brets or greater.

Its not even **** contest in terms of actual lore.

#210289

saweendra said:

How on gods green earth kislev is supposed to be equal to brets or greater.

Its not even **** contest in terms of actual lore.

Go look up the entry for 'Winged Lancers' and 'Gryphon Legion' in 6e white dwarf supplement. Bretonnia was never updated beyond 6e and was unsupported for 2 further editions due to unpopularity of play.

Causing a panic on -frontal- charge was an incredibly powerful passive easily on par with Knights of the Realm. Also had the same speed, but less armor with stubborn.

Similar combat stats, less armor, same speed, but a very powerful utility passive and better leadership.



If this had been translated directly into Total War Kislev cavalry would have had Terror, not Fear.

So my little informal tier list there was in terms of speed of the unit, not performance.

Bretonnia should have the best overall cavalry, but the fastest cavalry? Nope. They had that happy medium of being fast, tough and hard hitting.

If I have to i'll just default to the tabletop books. And I did both times here.

saweendra#3399

Dagonlives said:

saweendra said:

How on gods green earth kislev is supposed to be equal to brets or greater.

Its not even **** contest in terms of actual lore.

Go look up the entry for 'Winged Lancers' and 'Gryphon Legion' in 6e white dwarf supplement. Bretonnia was never updated beyond 6e and was unsupported for 2 further editions due to unpopularity of play.

Causing a panic on -frontal- charge was an incredibly powerful passive easily on par with Knights of the Realm. Also had the same speed, but less armor with stubborn.

Similar combat stats, less armor, same speed, but a very powerful utility passive and better leadership.



If this had been translated directly into Total War Kislev cavalry would have had Terror, not Fear.

So my little informal tier list there was in terms of speed of the unit, not performance.

Bretonnia should have the best overall cavalry, but the fastest cavalry? Nope. They had that happy medium of being fast, tough and hard hitting.

If I have to i'll just default to the tabletop books. And I did both times here.

They had literally the same speed since bretonnia could ignore the barding penalty


Kislev cav can get get terror i don't care but they either need to drop in speed or loose some armor because
Right now they have 80 armor and 84 speed

While your knights have 80 armor and 75 speed.

Should bretonnia get better armor no because thats empire thing not bretonnias.

ThibixMagnus#8300

the greatest strength of bret cav was the lance formation and the blessing (for all knights). In total war they are admittedly very cost effective but lack specificity. The lance is extremely niche at the very best, while the blessing is reduced to grail units, has the opposite effect than in TT (less benefits against high strength attacks instead of more) and is worse than any somewhat agile skaven.

BloodyStream#7178

Getting rid of expendable capture weight penalties is probably the biggest buff they need. Ogres also need the same treatment. Really big oversights.

Rheingold#6691

Bretonnia suffer from being a game 1 faction with asymmetrical design ported into game 3 where the new shiny factions have everything... Thats the start and end of it.
Easy to fix though.

Firstly their cav should have the same speed as other cav. Thats a no brainer.
Secondly their infantry and archers are weak, seriously weak. And while thats is part of their faction identity there is room for a buff. I'm not saying squires should take on chosen and peasant archers should be as good as waywatchers, but currently they can be buffed a bit without ruining bretonia's identity.
Start with more accuracy and a tad more ap for archers and give squires slightly better stats. Add the movement speed to knights and its a start.
In all likelihood it won't be enough and there will need to be more buffs but it would be a start.