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All races should be able to scale well into late game. If you are the sort of player that does short campaigns that is fine, thats why there are short campaign victories.
Not every faction has to be able to paint the map.
Yea, that was the point of RoC and they worked well there. The entire point of IE is to paint the map (other than WEs I guess).
They don't work well in IE.
The entire point of IE is a sandbox to play around in. Not every faction paints the map. The climate system literally exists so you have incentive to do things other than paint the map.
I've been painting the map since Shogun 1 it's boring now give me incentives to sack, raid, raze, make vassals, make allies instead.
I do support moveable camps though. Preferably something like pay 5,000 gold to put the camp into a pool where you can choose to place it again without losing the buildings.
After playing Skrag and Greasus in RoC, I do believe we should be able to move camps.
A camp isn't supposed to stay put. And not only do we need them to get high tier units, we also need them for the meat to keep at reasonable levels. Something that's only useful where your armies are : near the frontline.
Yet the amount of money a fully developped camp costs makes it disgusting to have to destroy it. Only because you need camps somewhere else for the meat to keep at reasonable levels : I ended up only having one or two fully developped camps where each army started before travellings towards the frontline, while the rest was destroyed for the meat to be steady : I don't think that's the intended design, especially when you compare Ogres to Dark Elves that have normal settlements AND an equivalent of mobile camps.
So, after playing Ogres for solid 60 turns, I came to the conclusion that they need a lot of work. Long post warning, TLDR at the end.
First, their biggest (and most fixable) problem - camps.
I've said it before and I will say it again, they were designed around RoC and turtling in 20 - ish settlements. That works for RoC where you don't really need to expand, but it scales horribly in IE.
You can get 7 camps in total (8 if you play Greasus) for the entire map. That's about 1 camp for 70 settlements. Even Chaos gets more Dark Fortresses than this... They are your only way to get good units and they generate a lot of money.
Solution:
Uncap the camps and make it so you can only put one camp in a province. Every 2 or 3 provinces you get a new camp capacity.
Or
Make the camps movable. Simply put a gold cost to it and make it so you can move camps around. Gold cost could scale with camp development, so you are disincentified to move them willy-nilly.
Second, and this one is less of an issue, but still is.
They are broke, like absolutely. Their settlements don't earn much, their camps do, but we have already established that 7 camps for 500 settlements isn't enough. Their camps are extremely expensive, upgrading advanced recruitment building is costly as hell and you have to manually recruit camp garrison... Why? Herdstones get super strong garrison for free. Yea, you get 60% upkeep reduction, but you still have to recruit those units...
And yes, they are supposed to make money by sacking, but so do the greenskins and they get a money building that makes 500 gold at tier 3, contrary to Ogre one that makes 150 gold at tier 3 LMAO.
Solution:
Make camps building cheaper. Buff the money making building to at least 300 gold at tier 3...
Third
Pathfinding. So many minor settlements and Ogres suffer the most. The pathfinding for large units is horrendous and Ogres's entire roster is filled with large units...
Solution:
There isn't an easy one, so I guess fighting less settlement battles would help?
The race is pretty cool design-wise, but man, currently they are much worse Greenskins.
TLDR: Camps are very limited and super expensive. Ogres are broke and have huge issues with pathfinding in minor settlements.
In case of camps I will go with the 3rd option with some extras. Make camps movable and have the hard-cap increase by 1 for every 3 provinces on top of the hard-cap increase you get from researches and Greasus. Also have the camp Tyrant be like the Black Ark Admiral (he earns experience, traits and has a skill-tree similar to the generic Tyrant but with a different blue skill-tree that emphasizes camp efficiency, growth, productivity and even effectiveness of various abilities you get from camp structures). That would make Ogres buffed up.
Also I'd go with the Ogre LLs having their own camps too.
Yeah I played skrag like 30 turns and quit, like you need meat and gold to sustain armies but building meat buildings halfs your income. And camp's are limited have small areas of influence. It was just a tedious slog. Yeah they need something I would make the camps function like land black arts, they move around at will and their actual settlements need a little bit of a buff.
Not every faction has to be able to paint the map.
Disagree. If you don't want to, then you don't have to. But every race should at least have the option.
VCoast, WoC and BM disagree with you.
VCoast and WoC can both paint the map if they want to. It’s not optimal, but the option is there.
Just like Ogres can. It’s not optimal but the option is there.
Nothing is stopping you from conquering the world as Ogres. It’s perfectly possible.
Skrag and Golgfag, maybe, but Greasus Goldtooth is an empire builder at his core who has stated a desire to expand his borders.
"Today the Orcs, tomorrow the world. Let them all tremble..."
Even if mercenary work was befitting him (he's not a mercenary and never has been), raiding and venturing outside your homeland is really difficult as the Ogres because you are constrained by the amount of meat you have on hand. The amount of meat you gain from winning battles is paltry and not enough to sate a 20-stack of Ogres, making them reliant on camps for replenishment purposes. These camps effectively act as a "leash" for Ogre factions and you can only build a very limited number, effectively constraining Ogres to their starting positions and whatever area around them they can cover with the camp radius.
Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.
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2 · Disagree 2AgreeNothing is stopping you from conquering the world as Ogres. It’s perfectly possible.
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2 · 1Disagree 2AgreeI've been painting the map since Shogun 1 it's boring now give me incentives to sack, raid, raze, make vassals, make allies instead.
I do support moveable camps though. Preferably something like pay 5,000 gold to put the camp into a pool where you can choose to place it again without losing the buildings.
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0 · Disagree AgreeA camp isn't supposed to stay put. And not only do we need them to get high tier units, we also need them for the meat to keep at reasonable levels. Something that's only useful where your armies are : near the frontline.
Yet the amount of money a fully developped camp costs makes it disgusting to have to destroy it. Only because you need camps somewhere else for the meat to keep at reasonable levels : I ended up only having one or two fully developped camps where each army started before travellings towards the frontline, while the rest was destroyed for the meat to be steady : I don't think that's the intended design, especially when you compare Ogres to Dark Elves that have normal settlements AND an equivalent of mobile camps.
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0 · 7Disagree AgreeThat would make Ogres buffed up.
Also I'd go with the Ogre LLs having their own camps too.
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0 · Disagree Agree"Today the Orcs, tomorrow the world. Let them all tremble..."
Even if mercenary work was befitting him (he's not a mercenary and never has been), raiding and venturing outside your homeland is really difficult as the Ogres because you are constrained by the amount of meat you have on hand. The amount of meat you gain from winning battles is paltry and not enough to sate a 20-stack of Ogres, making them reliant on camps for replenishment purposes. These camps effectively act as a "leash" for Ogre factions and you can only build a very limited number, effectively constraining Ogres to their starting positions and whatever area around them they can cover with the camp radius.
Let Slip the Dogs of War - A fanmade Campaign Pack concept
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303462/let-loose-the-dogs-of-war-a-fanmade-campaign-pack-concept
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