Credit where due - domination is feeling really good now in the most important ways

eumaies#1128

Thanks for CA for extending the game length - I finally feel like I'm fighting a battle first and caps set the stage for the battle and make it a good one.

This is some of the best warhammer I've enjoyed in terms of large multi phase battles. Land battles have the best "set piece" engagements but this is a really nice strategic game now.

The biggest single remaining problem with the mode IMO is the teleport refund. And then hoping the maps get better and more numerous - as people begin developing the maps using the editor please look out for pathways to make those an official part of the game (the best of them).

And finally, please please please, don't do what you said in your patch notes and make the game all about teleportation by ending the resummoning of dead units. Running out of units to play the game is the stupidest way to lose and the less we use your teleport button the better.

Bohemond_Beastslayer#3117

Agreed, loving domination right now.

yst#1879

Yep, especially in terms of balance, the game is about in their best state, ever.

Great mode, amazing map selection, rosters all having their special niches and balances. Last time the game is this fun is back when war 1 is release with all the nice experimental fun of warhammer totalwar.

Loupi#8512

the mode is being held back by having only a small selection of mostly terrible maps. If that was fixed id call it a good mode.

mightygloin#2446

Improved sure, but still prefer the classic mode for both playing and watching. You know the mode that received zero care even in WH3.

Lotus_Moon#2452

Arty in deployment zone being a safe heaven needs a priority look also

Spellbound1875#4610

It's certainly better though I still think the mode skews a bit too hard towards chaff/cheap units. I'd argue the new capture weights in 2.0 were a step back for unit variety, something which the longer game length introduced in 2.1 hasn't really addressed.

Over teleport refund I'd argue undead providing capture weight while crumbling is the next biggest issue. Undead factions have pulled very solid win rates since IE release and the extension of game length seemed to have almost no impact on that. I'd follow this closely with the blanket expendable capture weight change which was ill conceived and very inconsistent in which units and factions it punished. Teleporting would be a close 3rd.

Still definitely a positive direction for the mode and CA's willingness to tinker with capture weights is a good sign given I think a lot of the remaining issues will need to be addressed there. Some additional tweaks to the parameters (shrink the length a bit, remove refund from recalling units, some additional capture weight scaling) and some new maps are all the mode needs to be feature complete. After that it should just be unit balancing.

WarpDriver#9169

With all the races and extra units Domination is especially great fun to play. Regards player numbers, people seemed like they simply waited for their favourite races to appear before playing. Many new people are trying Domination too, and hopefully sticking with it. All new things need care and protection to grow properly, add things when it is the right time, e.g. mode choice in ladder must have enough players for domination. Great job CA, onwards and upwards.

ThibixMagnus#8300

eumaies said:

And finally, please please please, don't do what you said in your patch notes and make the game all about teleportation by ending the resummoning of dead units. Running out of units to play the game is the stupidest way to lose and the less we use your teleport button the better.

removing both resummoning AND teleportation, while increasing reinforcement funds enough to never be able to spend it all, would work too, no?

However, is running out of units (no teleport, just real hard scarcity) only bad? It is one possible way to start rewarding skillful flanking / overloading (to reach the artillery or rear charges). Backline pressure is otherwise too easily punished by reinforcements.

Bigger maps is an obvious alternative (also allowing for old school vanguard deployment), but maps may need to be so big to effectively force the arty out of safe zone that it could slow the game too much.

Another option is to introduce a declining income, so as the game progresses it becomes harder to reinforce.

BovineKing

Maps and resummons seem to be the only complaints.

eumaies#1128

removing both resummoning AND teleportation, while increasing reinforcement funds enough to never be able to spend it all, would work too, no?

However, is running out of units (no teleport, just real hard scarcity) only bad? It is one possible way to start rewarding skillful flanking / overloading (to reach the artillery or rear charges). Backline pressure is otherwise too easily punished by reinforcements.

Bigger maps is an obvious alternative (also allowing for old school vanguard deployment), but maps may need to be so big to effectively force the arty out of safe zone that it could slow the game too much.

Another option is to introduce a declining income, so as the game progresses it becomes harder to reinforce.

Yes you could try to increase funds to that amount. The interface would be pretty crowded with so many units on your reinforcement panel, which already blocks your screen. Also, the amounts of funds we're talking about for this game length is very high, at around $24,000 over the course of the battle. Given that current funding amount, I think it's hard to get by without some kind of resummoning or many armies would be down to the dregs of their army lists.

Reducing number of units in certain ways could do that as well. But i don't really think it's an urgent issue to problem solve, personally.

Shoggunik#9002

I think it is much better, though games can be a little bit on a long side. I think slightly reducing amount of tickets (1300?) wouldn't change strategy too much and make game less drag.

yst#1879

Spellbound1875 said:

It's certainly better though I still think the mode skews a bit too hard towards chaff/cheap units. I'd argue the new capture weights in 2.0 were a step back for unit variety, something which the longer game length introduced in 2.1 hasn't really addressed.

Capping is secondary.

U army kill first.

Spellbound1875#4610

yst said:

Spellbound1875 said:

It's certainly better though I still think the mode skews a bit too hard towards chaff/cheap units. I'd argue the new capture weights in 2.0 were a step back for unit variety, something which the longer game length introduced in 2.1 hasn't really addressed.

Capping is secondary.

U army kill first.

I've played new dom I understand this. Problem is you're still largely incentivized to rely on cheap units as the game runs long because expensive units aren't able to contest points quickly enough after clearing a point.

Case in point, a lot of Khornes expensive units are still bad picks because even if they win combat and pay for themselves they don't contest points fast enough. I lost a game earlier that I was up on value in because I summoned a tactically appropriate expensive unit which performed solidly in the game (skullcrusher in this case) but couldn't recapture a point due to the extremely poor capture weight to cost.

Expensive units can already struggle to pay for themselves and the fact that their capture value can be essentially overridden by sacrificing a cheaper unit makes picking them often a bad strategic choice even when ahead on damage value.

TLDR: Cheap units are both safer options in terms of value trading and more powerful capture tools which squeezes many elite units out of the meta. Capture weight scaling helps address this without breaking unit balance.

eumaies#1128

I think there's still room to help capture weights reflect value more. After all if caps don't matter then that won't ruin anything either.

But I definitely notice a subtle dynamic around having enough units in your army and how that can cause you to lose games if you only have ranged units and elites. Had some games where i was way up in value but the enemy just had more bodies and I couldn't exterminate.

Right now the dynamic of there being a cost to taking units that can't cap is still there in subtle and important ways.