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Cathay > Empire

SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 600
Before you cry heresy, grab your warhammers and smite me with holy fire, this post is not a subjective, "oh I like Cathay's design more, blah, blah, Empire sukz."

No, this is merely an observation having played both Cathay LL's and both Franz and Gelt for 50 turns at least.

Nearly everything about Cathay is simply better. Cathayan units are statistically superior, and with Harmony, often by a significant margin, they are easier to access in many cases as well, requiring lower tier buildings and few if any cross building combinations, in fact, I don't think Cathay has any "x building unlocks x unit but only if you have x other building already built."

As a simple example, a tier one barracks for Cathay gives access to Jade Warriors, who start with either 80 armor or 95 armor depending on which LL you play. That increases by up to +20 armor if they stand still for long enough. Back them up with a few peasant archers, who outrange empire archers, and Jade Warriors have nearly identical MA and MD as empire swordsman. Sure Jade Warriors are more expensive, but they are SIGNIFICANTLY better as a front line unit than empire swordsman who a whopping 30 armor or 40 if you play as Gelt, who do not benefit from proximity to ranged units, and do not have any sort of passive bonus.

Cathay's low to mid tier units are simply better, and easier to access across the board than the Empire's similar troops, and they have greater staying power. On top of this, the Cathay Fire Rocket is so insanely strong as to be near mandatory in armies. And all of this comes while being richer, safer, and easier to play in general.

My point in bringing this up is that I believe Empire is in need of some serious quality of life improvements. Across the board Empire troops need a balance pass. More armor, higher leadership etc. General's skills need to be updated, magic needs to be easier to access, because Cathay has both easier access and stronger spellcasters.

Ironhail gunners are a tier 2 unit, handgunners are tier 3 and while they don't fulfill the same role, handgunners should arguably be tier 2 and ironhail gunners 3 based on their role and general utility.

There's more that could be done I'm sure, I simply wanted to share my thoughts, because while I really like Cathay, I really love the faith, steel and gunpowder of the Empire, the Men of the Empire need some help right now.
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Comments

  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,210
    Yes!
    "It's no fun fighting people weaker than you." - The Beast"There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla Forum Terms & Conditions I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • VladdyVladdy Registered Users Posts: 477
    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.
  • Budoka#3009Budoka#3009 Registered Users Posts: 232
    I agree, Cathay feels superior to Empire by a lot. Rework and content for Empire is needed.
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,585


    Ironhail gunners are a tier 2 unit, handgunners are tier 3 and while they don't fulfill the same role, handgunners should arguably be tier 2 and ironhail gunners 3 based on their role and general utility.

    Not so sure about that, they're units that don't really directly compare.

    If anything should be down-tiered for the Empire it's Mortars to tier 2 and Cannons to tier 3 (plus altering them to a flatter arc so they over/undershoot less), and Greatswords should only require the tier 2 armoury building.

    I think Helstorms are better than Fire Rains, 80 more range and nearly twice as much ammo, in fact I don't even use Fire Rain Rockets I use Grand Cannons instead because they more reliably deal with the things Cathay need dealing with.
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 600


    Ironhail gunners are a tier 2 unit, handgunners are tier 3 and while they don't fulfill the same role, handgunners should arguably be tier 2 and ironhail gunners 3 based on their role and general utility.

    Not so sure about that, they're units that don't really directly compare.

    If anything should be down-tiered for the Empire it's Mortars to tier 2 and Cannons to tier 3 (plus altering them to a flatter arc so they over/undershoot less), and Greatswords should only require the tier 2 armoury building.

    I think Helstorms are better than Fire Rains, 80 more range and nearly twice as much ammo, in fact I don't even use Fire Rain Rockets I use Grand Cannons instead because they more reliably deal with the things Cathay need dealing with.
    Fire rain rockets consistently rack up 600+ kills per battle for me, each. They absolutely annihilate enemy infantry. I rarely have that much success with Helstorms.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,715
    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    And DLCs.

    There is so much missing for the Empire and 4 LLs is a joke. They deserve 9 LLs like WoC.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,715


    Ironhail gunners are a tier 2 unit, handgunners are tier 3 and while they don't fulfill the same role, handgunners should arguably be tier 2 and ironhail gunners 3 based on their role and general utility.

    Not so sure about that, they're units that don't really directly compare.

    If anything should be down-tiered for the Empire it's Mortars to tier 2 and Cannons to tier 3 (plus altering them to a flatter arc so they over/undershoot less), and Greatswords should only require the tier 2 armoury building.

    I think Helstorms are better than Fire Rains, 80 more range and nearly twice as much ammo, in fact I don't even use Fire Rain Rockets I use Grand Cannons instead because they more reliably deal with the things Cathay need dealing with.
    Empire Artillery and Cavalry is generally superior to Cathay. But Cathay has better line infantry with Jade Warriors and also a better Air Force. The Empire actually has no flying units at all (which is fine).

    The Empire has better irregular troops for more flexibility like Huntsmen, Free Company and Flaggelants while Cathays offers weakness is being so static.

    Both have their own strengths and weaknesses. And both desperately need more content.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,869
    Nothing wrong with cathay being better
  • sandercohensandercohen Registered Users Posts: 525
    I do agree that campaign-wise the Empire needs a hefty rework, along with another DLC or two, preferably:

    1. one focused on Nuln with steam tank variants, RoR steam tanks, Nuln Ironside, Jabal Falk as LH, Elesiph von Drak as LL, Hockland Longrifles and so on.
    2. One centered on the various cults of the empire including the associated units. Likely to be a FLC with Toddy as well.

    Empire still has Cathay beat in the cavalry department though, that's for sure. As for spellcasters, well, seeing as how busted dwellers below currently is I don't know if that's really the case.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,210
    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    Both need DLC.

    Cathay just needs 3-5 LPs.
    "It's no fun fighting people weaker than you." - The Beast"There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla Forum Terms & Conditions I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,715

    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    Both need DLC.

    Cathay just needs 3-5 LPs.
    3 LPs max.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,585


    Ironhail gunners are a tier 2 unit, handgunners are tier 3 and while they don't fulfill the same role, handgunners should arguably be tier 2 and ironhail gunners 3 based on their role and general utility.

    Not so sure about that, they're units that don't really directly compare.

    If anything should be down-tiered for the Empire it's Mortars to tier 2 and Cannons to tier 3 (plus altering them to a flatter arc so they over/undershoot less), and Greatswords should only require the tier 2 armoury building.

    I think Helstorms are better than Fire Rains, 80 more range and nearly twice as much ammo, in fact I don't even use Fire Rain Rockets I use Grand Cannons instead because they more reliably deal with the things Cathay need dealing with.
    Fire rain rockets consistently rack up 600+ kills per battle for me, each. They absolutely annihilate enemy infantry. I rarely have that much success with Helstorms.
    How are you finding that many things to kill that regularly? Fighting exclusively Skavenslaves and Zombie spam?
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 600

    I do agree that campaign-wise the Empire needs a hefty rework, along with another DLC or two, preferably:

    1. one focused on Nuln with steam tank variants, RoR steam tanks, Nuln Ironside, Jabal Falk as LH, Elesiph von Drak as LL, Hockland Longrifles and so on.
    2. One centered on the various cults of the empire including the associated units. Likely to be a FLC with Toddy as well.

    Empire still has Cathay beat in the cavalry department though, that's for sure. As for spellcasters, well, seeing as how busted dwellers below currently is I don't know if that's really the case.

    Cathay has their unique bonus to spell casting when you more than one per army. As an example, the starting alchemist in Zhao Ming's army can easily get 500+ kills per fight as early as turn 3 or 4 with upgraded Searing Doom. Even Gelt has trouble doing that much damage that quickly.
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 600


    Ironhail gunners are a tier 2 unit, handgunners are tier 3 and while they don't fulfill the same role, handgunners should arguably be tier 2 and ironhail gunners 3 based on their role and general utility.

    Not so sure about that, they're units that don't really directly compare.

    If anything should be down-tiered for the Empire it's Mortars to tier 2 and Cannons to tier 3 (plus altering them to a flatter arc so they over/undershoot less), and Greatswords should only require the tier 2 armoury building.

    I think Helstorms are better than Fire Rains, 80 more range and nearly twice as much ammo, in fact I don't even use Fire Rain Rockets I use Grand Cannons instead because they more reliably deal with the things Cathay need dealing with.
    Fire rain rockets consistently rack up 600+ kills per battle for me, each. They absolutely annihilate enemy infantry. I rarely have that much success with Helstorms.
    How are you finding that many things to kill that regularly? Fighting exclusively Skavenslaves and Zombie spam?
    Skaven, Undead, Dark Elves and other Cathay armies mostly. The starting rocket in Zhao Ming's army carried me hard through the first 30 turns.
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,585
    edited September 17
    That's stuff that wears out as you start fighting more ogres and warriors of chaos though. My last big battle in my current campaign was against Archaon and another lord he was palling around with and their army was about 50% monstrous stuff (Spawn, trolls, and dragon ogres) that would have ignored fire rains but that cannons do super well against.

    Cannons deal with infantry well enough because they'll pierce a functionally unlimited number of models, and they'll also deal with all the monstrous stuff that rocket artillery doesn't. (And this is where the Empire has the Helblaster Volley Gun)
  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234
    Granted, Cathay's situation seems kind of blah (aka much easier). They should definitely get more problems to deal with, though they don't necessarily need to be Empire level of fun stuff to do.

    But I don't see how it matters whether or not Cathay's army is "better" than the Empire's, unless you are into multiplayer. And it seems to me that the biggest problem with Empire in MP is not its troops' stats, but that its very micro intensive to take advantage of its wide variety of cavalry and you really need to know its roster inside and out to tailor to the map and opponent. That makes it a lot harder to play in MP than most factions.

    For the army itself, I'm mostly just wishing Greatswords were better. They are the unit that's supposed to be good that I just struggle to ever find a use for in SP or MP.

  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,715

    Just more proof that empire needs DLC + rework

    Desperately.

    After VC and Norsca getting their LPs, I really hope it’s the Empires turn again.

    Elspeth vs Tamurkhan cannot come soon enough.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • Reeks#2417Reeks#2417 Registered Users Posts: 10,269
    There is nothing wrong with having some races being stronger than others

    When that´s said i would not mind a rework/DLC for The Empire at some point down the line, still loads of characters from the lore to implement.



    Nurgle is love

    Nurgle is life

    #JusticeForNurglingForumAvatars
  • manpersal#3961manpersal#3961 Registered Users Posts: 3,323


    Ironhail gunners are a tier 2 unit, handgunners are tier 3 and while they don't fulfill the same role, handgunners should arguably be tier 2 and ironhail gunners 3 based on their role and general utility.

    Not so sure about that, they're units that don't really directly compare.

    If anything should be down-tiered for the Empire it's Mortars to tier 2 and Cannons to tier 3 (plus altering them to a flatter arc so they over/undershoot less), and Greatswords should only require the tier 2 armoury building.

    I think Helstorms are better than Fire Rains, 80 more range and nearly twice as much ammo, in fact I don't even use Fire Rain Rockets I use Grand Cannons instead because they more reliably deal with the things Cathay need dealing with.
    Yeah, cannons are much more versatile. I also prefer them.
  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,869

    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    Both need DLC.

    Cathay just needs 3-5 LPs.
    3 LPs max.
    They could have more
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,715

    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    Both need DLC.

    Cathay just needs 3-5 LPs.
    3 LPs max.
    They could have more
    Could yes but they also need FLCs.

    So 3 LPs is enough.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • manpersal#3961manpersal#3961 Registered Users Posts: 3,323

    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    Both need DLC.

    Cathay just needs 3-5 LPs.
    3 LPs max.
    They could have more
    As long as everybody else receives their due. Wh1 races also need content and CA can find enough stuff for Wh2 races too.
  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,869

    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    Both need DLC.

    Cathay just needs 3-5 LPs.
    3 LPs max.
    They could have more
    Could yes but they also need FLCs.

    So 3 LPs is enough.
    We will see
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,715

    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    Both need DLC.

    Cathay just needs 3-5 LPs.
    3 LPs max.
    They could have more
    Could yes but they also need FLCs.

    So 3 LPs is enough.
    We will see
    Cathay will only get 6 LLs. Monke plus the 3 missing Dragons.

    So 3 LPs plus 1 FLC is fine.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
  • VladdyVladdy Registered Users Posts: 477

    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    And DLCs.

    There is so much missing for the Empire and 4 LLs is a joke. They deserve 9 LLs like WoC.
    Yes, but in my opinion Cathay's need for a DLC is bigger. Right now looks like CA saved all the cool units to sell them after. The only one with flavour is the flying baloon. Cathay is probably my favourite faction from WH3, but I will wait to play it untill the first dlc for it comes.
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,585


    For the army itself, I'm mostly just wishing Greatswords were better. They are the unit that's supposed to be good that I just struggle to ever find a use for in SP or MP.

    Yeah, Greatswords are the big letdown unit. They need an expensive extra building to recruit which makes them prohibitive to use at tier 3 when they would be good and they fall into a hole in skill and tech tree buffs where they end up barely getting any MA bonuses to help them actually apply their damage.

    My preferred approach to replace Honest Steel in the red skill line with a skill for skirmisher units (free company, outriders, pistoliers, and war wagons) and put Greatswords in with the rest of the infantry, then return the armour and WS to them through the tech tree.

    I fully expect that even by the end of the WH3 cycle when Cathay has all of its units it still won't be as versatile as the Empire. Fewer types of artillery, almost certainly no equivalent to outriders/grenade outriders, and fewer lores of magic.

    The other thing the Empire needs is updates to its character skill trees, give the Empire Captain and Witch Hunter some interesting ways to buff friendlies around them and change part of the effect of Hammer of Sigmar to a permanent aura rather than just an activatable buff (so they give +5MA in 35m permanently and that goes up to +24 when the skill is active.)

    Give the Empire General some skills to buff either State Troops, Knights or Artillery so you can theme their armies.

    Give the Arch Lector bonuses to Flagellants and embedded Warrior Priests and Witch Hunters.

    Then add the Engineer hero, Gold Wizard, Wizard Lord, and Celestial Hurricanum.
  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 489

    Before you cry heresy, grab your warhammers and smite me with holy fire, this post is not a subjective, "oh I like Cathay's design more, blah, blah, Empire sukz."

    No, this is merely an observation having played both Cathay LL's and both Franz and Gelt for 50 turns at least.

    Nearly everything about Cathay is simply better. Cathayan units are statistically superior, and with Harmony, often by a significant margin, they are easier to access in many cases as well, requiring lower tier buildings and few if any cross building combinations, in fact, I don't think Cathay has any "x building unlocks x unit but only if you have x other building already built."

    As a simple example, a tier one barracks for Cathay gives access to Jade Warriors, who start with either 80 armor or 95 armor depending on which LL you play. That increases by up to +20 armor if they stand still for long enough. Back them up with a few peasant archers, who outrange empire archers, and Jade Warriors have nearly identical MA and MD as empire swordsman. Sure Jade Warriors are more expensive, but they are SIGNIFICANTLY better as a front line unit than empire swordsman who a whopping 30 armor or 40 if you play as Gelt, who do not benefit from proximity to ranged units, and do not have any sort of passive bonus.

    Cathay's low to mid tier units are simply better, and easier to access across the board than the Empire's similar troops, and they have greater staying power. On top of this, the Cathay Fire Rocket is so insanely strong as to be near mandatory in armies. And all of this comes while being richer, safer, and easier to play in general.

    My point in bringing this up is that I believe Empire is in need of some serious quality of life improvements. Across the board Empire troops need a balance pass. More armor, higher leadership etc. General's skills need to be updated, magic needs to be easier to access, because Cathay has both easier access and stronger spellcasters.

    Ironhail gunners are a tier 2 unit, handgunners are tier 3 and while they don't fulfill the same role, handgunners should arguably be tier 2 and ironhail gunners 3 based on their role and general utility.

    There's more that could be done I'm sure, I simply wanted to share my thoughts, because while I really like Cathay, I really love the faith, steel and gunpowder of the Empire, the Men of the Empire need some help right now.

    Of course Chathina is better because they are the newer race. Each unit you can compare to the Empire is better. CA hates the Empire. Same for Kislev. Even the Kislev cannon can fight.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 37,715
    Vladdy said:

    Vladdy said:

    Cathay needs dlc.
    Empire needs rework.

    And DLCs.

    There is so much missing for the Empire and 4 LLs is a joke. They deserve 9 LLs like WoC.
    Yes, but in my opinion Cathay's need for a DLC is bigger. Right now looks like CA saved all the cool units to sell them after. The only one with flavour is the flying baloon. Cathay is probably my favourite faction from WH3, but I will wait to play it untill the first dlc for it comes.
    Oh I have no doubt that Cathay will get it first, most likely right after the Chaos Dwarfs.
    Summon the Elector Counts!
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