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  • Tennisgolfboll#5877Tennisgolfboll#5877 Registered Users Posts: 13,481
    Balance is off.
  • Serkelet#1834Serkelet#1834 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,083
    Counterpoint: the Empire has far better cavalry options, way more variety in artillery options, some of them can be devastating and melee lord and hero options that outclass Cathayan ones in that department.

    Points I agree with: State troops definitely could use a +10 base armor to reflect wearing actual plate cuirasses. Also, maybe easing access to magic.
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,340

    Counterpoint: the Empire has far better cavalry options, way more variety in artillery options, some of them can be devastating and melee lord and hero options that outclass Cathayan ones in that department.

    Points I agree with: State troops definitely could use a +10 base armor to reflect wearing actual plate cuirasses. Also, maybe easing access to magic.

    Once Cathay starts to get DLC that is bound to change, after all they still only have their starting roster. We can only really compared the two fully when Cathay has had two DLC. But so far their powercurve is well ahead that of the Empire, particularly since any overperforming Empire units have been thoroughly hammer with nerfs after 6 years of MP.
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • Serkelet#1834Serkelet#1834 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,083

    Counterpoint: the Empire has far better cavalry options, way more variety in artillery options, some of them can be devastating and melee lord and hero options that outclass Cathayan ones in that department.

    Points I agree with: State troops definitely could use a +10 base armor to reflect wearing actual plate cuirasses. Also, maybe easing access to magic.

    Once Cathay starts to get DLC that is bound to change, after all they still only have their starting roster. We can only really compared the two fully when Cathay has had two DLC. But so far their powercurve is well ahead that of the Empire, particularly since any overperforming Empire units have been thoroughly hammer with nerfs after 6 years of MP.
    I agree with you. Personally, add to my list of buffs an unnerf to demigryph knights. Give them back their stats, please. There is no reason for them to be the worst monstrous cavalry in the game at the moment.

    However, why is it a problem if Cathay is more powerful than the Empire at the moment? If it is at all.
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,340

    Counterpoint: the Empire has far better cavalry options, way more variety in artillery options, some of them can be devastating and melee lord and hero options that outclass Cathayan ones in that department.

    Points I agree with: State troops definitely could use a +10 base armor to reflect wearing actual plate cuirasses. Also, maybe easing access to magic.

    Once Cathay starts to get DLC that is bound to change, after all they still only have their starting roster. We can only really compared the two fully when Cathay has had two DLC. But so far their powercurve is well ahead that of the Empire, particularly since any overperforming Empire units have been thoroughly hammer with nerfs after 6 years of MP.
    I agree with you. Personally, add to my list of buffs an unnerf to demigryph knights. Give them back their stats, please. There is no reason for them to be the worst monstrous cavalry in the game at the moment.

    However, why is it a problem if Cathay is more powerful than the Empire at the moment? If it is at all.
    Cathay being more powerful is at least for me more a symptom of the problem than a problem in itself.

    The problem is the rampant powercreep in the game as a whole. Cathay is just a particularly in your face reminder of how big the gap is becoming due to that fact that CA literally took the Empire playstyle and replaced the versatility with more power. The harmony mechanic is straight up one way in which the Empire system with mutual support between units could have been represented.






    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,921


    That could leave them as the best roster in the game, but they deserve more. 4 with 3 FLCs. Final offer.

    Nah, 2 LP, 2 FLC. That will cover their supposed 'Army Book' and let the other factions (like Empire discussed here) get the attention they need and deserve. Cathay is fine, and 2+2 is more than they need.
    lol empire is fine
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,950


    That could leave them as the best roster in the game, but they deserve more. 4 with 3 FLCs. Final offer.

    Nah, 2 LP, 2 FLC. That will cover their supposed 'Army Book' and let the other factions (like Empire discussed here) get the attention they need and deserve. Cathay is fine, and 2+2 is more than they need.
    lol empire is fine
    Empire is missing quite a bit still, and from a lore perspective, even more.
    Kneel

  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,921


    That could leave them as the best roster in the game, but they deserve more. 4 with 3 FLCs. Final offer.

    Nah, 2 LP, 2 FLC. That will cover their supposed 'Army Book' and let the other factions (like Empire discussed here) get the attention they need and deserve. Cathay is fine, and 2+2 is more than they need.
    lol empire is fine
    Empire is missing quite a bit still, and from a lore perspective, even more.
    being new factions, Cathay deserve more attention first as their roster still feel very vanilla. I have good feeling 2+2 will not be enough
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,477


    That could leave them as the best roster in the game, but they deserve more. 4 with 3 FLCs. Final offer.

    Nah, 2 LP, 2 FLC. That will cover their supposed 'Army Book' and let the other factions (like Empire discussed here) get the attention they need and deserve. Cathay is fine, and 2+2 is more than they need.
    5 DLCs 2 FLCs then. You rejected the final offer, price goes up.

    Cathay is a full on major core and has endless potential.
    MAJOR cores, now? LOL damn, man.
  • Itharus#3127Itharus#3127 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 16,477


    That could leave them as the best roster in the game, but they deserve more. 4 with 3 FLCs. Final offer.

    Nah, 2 LP, 2 FLC. That will cover their supposed 'Army Book' and let the other factions (like Empire discussed here) get the attention they need and deserve. Cathay is fine, and 2+2 is more than they need.
    lol empire is fine
    Empire is missing quite a bit still, and from a lore perspective, even more.
    being new factions, Cathay deserve more attention first as their roster still feel very vanilla. I have good feeling 2+2 will not be enough
    Empire never really got past that point. They haven't really had all that much added to them since game 1.
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 600

    Counterpoint: the Empire has far better cavalry options, way more variety in artillery options, some of them can be devastating and melee lord and hero options that outclass Cathayan ones in that department.

    Points I agree with: State troops definitely could use a +10 base armor to reflect wearing actual plate cuirasses. Also, maybe easing access to magic.

    Once Cathay starts to get DLC that is bound to change, after all they still only have their starting roster. We can only really compared the two fully when Cathay has had two DLC. But so far their powercurve is well ahead that of the Empire, particularly since any overperforming Empire units have been thoroughly hammer with nerfs after 6 years of MP.
    I agree with you. Personally, add to my list of buffs an unnerf to demigryph knights. Give them back their stats, please. There is no reason for them to be the worst monstrous cavalry in the game at the moment.

    However, why is it a problem if Cathay is more powerful than the Empire at the moment? If it is at all.
    Cathay being more powerful is at least for me more a symptom of the problem than a problem in itself.

    The problem is the rampant powercreep in the game as a whole. Cathay is just a particularly in your face reminder of how big the gap is becoming due to that fact that CA literally took the Empire playstyle and replaced the versatility with more power. The harmony mechanic is straight up one way in which the Empire system with mutual support between units could have been represented.






    This is the perfect summary of why I bring this up. Cathay is miles ahead of the empire in several areas, with overall more engaging mechanics lots of room to grow beyond an already powerful roster. The empire is limited in what can be added at this point, outside of balance passes and significant updates to the way the roster works.

    Is the point that Cathay lacks the same number of cavalry, artillery or magic lore options right now a good one? Yes. Does anyone honestly believe that will be the case after DLC's and FLC's are added to the roster?
  • DarthEnderX-#6513DarthEnderX-#6513 Registered Users Posts: 5,209

    Nearly everything about Cathay is simply better.

    On paper, it would be.

    Cathay is larger, more unified, more organized, more fortified, is run by powerful supernatural beings, etc.
    "Assassination's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it."
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,950


    That could leave them as the best roster in the game, but they deserve more. 4 with 3 FLCs. Final offer.

    Nah, 2 LP, 2 FLC. That will cover their supposed 'Army Book' and let the other factions (like Empire discussed here) get the attention they need and deserve. Cathay is fine, and 2+2 is more than they need.
    lol empire is fine
    Empire is missing quite a bit still, and from a lore perspective, even more.
    being new factions, Cathay deserve more attention first as their roster still feel very vanilla. I have good feeling 2+2 will not be enough
    Nah, 2 meaningful LP's is more than sufficient with a few Lords sprinkled in as FLC to get them to 6. Easy.
    Kneel

  • GreenColoured#2445GreenColoured#2445 Registered Users Posts: 6,960

    Counterpoint: the Empire has far better cavalry options, way more variety in artillery options, some of them can be devastating and melee lord and hero options that outclass Cathayan ones in that department.

    Points I agree with: State troops definitely could use a +10 base armor to reflect wearing actual plate cuirasses. Also, maybe easing access to magic.

    Once Cathay starts to get DLC that is bound to change, after all they still only have their starting roster. We can only really compared the two fully when Cathay has had two DLC. But so far their powercurve is well ahead that of the Empire, particularly since any overperforming Empire units have been thoroughly hammer with nerfs after 6 years of MP.
    I agree with you. Personally, add to my list of buffs an unnerf to demigryph knights. Give them back their stats, please. There is no reason for them to be the worst monstrous cavalry in the game at the moment.

    However, why is it a problem if Cathay is more powerful than the Empire at the moment? If it is at all.
    Why is that? Someone's got to be the worst and it makes sense it's the human one.

    And that's ignoring the fact that it's not even bad to begin with. You're only comparing the unit in a vacuum rather than its role in the larger roster as a whole
  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,921


    That could leave them as the best roster in the game, but they deserve more. 4 with 3 FLCs. Final offer.

    Nah, 2 LP, 2 FLC. That will cover their supposed 'Army Book' and let the other factions (like Empire discussed here) get the attention they need and deserve. Cathay is fine, and 2+2 is more than they need.
    lol empire is fine
    Empire is missing quite a bit still, and from a lore perspective, even more.
    being new factions, Cathay deserve more attention first as their roster still feel very vanilla. I have good feeling 2+2 will not be enough
    Nah, 2 meaningful LP's is more than sufficient with a few Lords sprinkled in as FLC to get them to 6. Easy.
    we will see ;)
  • Surge_2#1464Surge_2#1464 Registered Users Posts: 11,950


    That could leave them as the best roster in the game, but they deserve more. 4 with 3 FLCs. Final offer.

    Nah, 2 LP, 2 FLC. That will cover their supposed 'Army Book' and let the other factions (like Empire discussed here) get the attention they need and deserve. Cathay is fine, and 2+2 is more than they need.
    lol empire is fine
    Empire is missing quite a bit still, and from a lore perspective, even more.
    being new factions, Cathay deserve more attention first as their roster still feel very vanilla. I have good feeling 2+2 will not be enough
    Nah, 2 meaningful LP's is more than sufficient with a few Lords sprinkled in as FLC to get them to 6. Easy.
    we will see ;)
    Monkey + Dragon (whichever) and the other 2 dragons as FLC would make too much sense.
    Kneel

  • Data5#9904Data5#9904 Registered Users Posts: 527
    edited September 2022

    Nearly everything about Cathay is simply better.

    On paper, it would be.

    Cathay is larger, more unified, more organized, more fortified, is run by powerful supernatural beings, etc.
    Humans fight with tech but Warhammer seem to always mess up the timeline where dwarfs have 1970s attack helicopters. But the general feeling is that Cathay is in 16th century while empire is in 18th century with steam machine. I could never understand the design of the cathay grand cannon. It's too wide and too short, looks like a mortar but shoots like empire cannons.
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,745
    edited September 2022
    Itharus said:


    That could leave them as the best roster in the game, but they deserve more. 4 with 3 FLCs. Final offer.

    Nah, 2 LP, 2 FLC. That will cover their supposed 'Army Book' and let the other factions (like Empire discussed here) get the attention they need and deserve. Cathay is fine, and 2+2 is more than they need.
    5 DLCs 2 FLCs then. You rejected the final offer, price goes up.

    Cathay is a full on major core and has endless potential.
    MAJOR cores, now? LOL damn, man.
    I've called it that for like a year bruv. Probably longer.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234
    I guess I still don't see the problem. Where is the empire having problems with its army? Its a bit below average in multiplayer, but I thought folks didn't want the game balanced around that?

  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,745

    I guess I still don't see the problem. Where is the empire having problems with its army? Its a bit below average in multiplayer, but I thought folks didn't want the game balanced around that?

    A bit underpowered all round. Doesn't help that its IE campaign is very hard.
    There are only two people better than me, and I'm both of them" - Vanilla Gorilla I am The Beast, Descendant of Guanyin, The one who beasts 25 hours a day, 8 days a week, The Vanilla Gorilla, The great bright delight, Conqueror of Mountains, Purveyor of wisdom, Official forum historian, Master Tamer of energy, the one they fear to name, Beastradamus, The Teacher, Master Unbiased Pollster, The Avatar of Tuesday, Chief hype Train Conductor, Uwu Usurper, Pog Wog Warrior, Poggers Patroller, Alpha of the species, Apex protector, Praetor of Positivity, Drybrush Disciple, Sophisticated Savage.
  • bli-nk#6314bli-nk#6314 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 5,976
    edited September 2022
    Empire has better cavalry, magic, and vehicles than Cathay. Cathay has stronger ranged, and melee units with artillery basically being equal.

    The Empire roster really only need 1 unit that had durability other than Flaggellants which are basically 1 LLs special unit. If the Cult of Ulric and Sigmar get in Flaggellants could possibly be more widespread or the Teutogen Guard being Greatswords that have some staying power.

    Knights of the Wolf could be anti-infanty weaker Questing Knights while Knight of the Panther would be a faster moving version of Reiksguard that has a bit of staying power but mostly the speed and ability to hit similar tier targets pretty hard if they get the charge to make up for Empire lack of flying units and that most of the Empire roster is pretty slow other than their light cavalry.

    It is harder to filll gaps in an Empire roster that is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none, journeyman at artillery and cavalry compared to Cathay which we can expect to get several new units with new LPs.

    It does seem likely that Empire will get at least 2 further LL and if each comes with 1 new unit that m might be enough. Empire really does not need much for units. More of a rework on campaign mechanics and LHs.
    Clothes make the man. Naked people have little or no influence in society.” Mark Twain
  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 497
    bli-nk said:

    Empire has better cavalry, magic, and vehicles than Cathay. Cathay has stronger ranged, and melee units with artillery basically being equal.

    The Empire roster really only need 1 unit that had durability other than Flaggellants which are basically 1 LLs special unit. If the Cult of Ulric and Sigmar get in Flaggellants could possibly be more widespread or the Teutogen Guard being Greatswords that have some staying power.

    Knights of the Wolf could be anti-infanty weaker Questing Knights while Knight of the Panther would be a faster moving version of Reiksguard that has a bit of staying power but mostly the speed and ability to hit similar tier targets pretty hard if they get the charge to make up for Empire lack of flying units and that most of the Empire roster is pretty slow other than their light cavalry.

    It is harder to filll gaps in an Empire roster that is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none, journeyman at artillery and cavalry compared to Cathay which we can expect to get several new units with new LPs.

    It does seem likely that Empire will get at least 2 further LL and if each comes with 1 new unit that m might be enough. Empire really does not need much for units. More of a rework on campaign mechanics and LHs.

    Chathyna's artillery is better cause Mortas are useless and their rockets are more precise. Even their cannons are better.
  • Pray#3234Pray#3234 Registered Users Posts: 1,606
    edited September 2022
    bli-nk said:

    Empire has better cavalry, magic, and vehicles than Cathay. Cathay has stronger ranged, and melee units with artillery basically being equal.

    The Empire roster really only need 1 unit that had durability other than Flaggellants which are basically 1 LLs special unit. If the Cult of Ulric and Sigmar get in Flaggellants could possibly be more widespread or the Teutogen Guard being Greatswords that have some staying power.

    Knights of the Wolf could be anti-infanty weaker Questing Knights while Knight of the Panther would be a faster moving version of Reiksguard that has a bit of staying power but mostly the speed and ability to hit similar tier targets pretty hard if they get the charge to make up for Empire lack of flying units and that most of the Empire roster is pretty slow other than their light cavalry.

    It is harder to filll gaps in an Empire roster that is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none, journeyman at artillery and cavalry compared to Cathay which we can expect to get several new units with new LPs.

    It does seem likely that Empire will get at least 2 further LL and if each comes with 1 new unit that m might be enough. Empire really does not need much for units. More of a rework on campaign mechanics and LHs.

    bli-nk said:

    Empire has better cavalry, magic, and vehicles than Cathay. Cathay has stronger ranged, and melee units with artillery basically being equal.

    The Empire roster really only need 1 unit that had durability other than Flaggellants which are basically 1 LLs special unit. If the Cult of Ulric and Sigmar get in Flaggellants could possibly be more widespread or the Teutogen Guard being Greatswords that have some staying power.

    Knights of the Wolf could be anti-infanty weaker Questing Knights while Knight of the Panther would be a faster moving version of Reiksguard that has a bit of staying power but mostly the speed and ability to hit similar tier targets pretty hard if they get the charge to make up for Empire lack of flying units and that most of the Empire roster is pretty slow other than their light cavalry.

    It is harder to filll gaps in an Empire roster that is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none, journeyman at artillery and cavalry compared to Cathay which we can expect to get several new units with new LPs.

    It does seem likely that Empire will get at least 2 further LL and if each comes with 1 new unit that m might be enough. Empire really does not need much for units. More of a rework on campaign mechanics and LHs.

    Infantry - Cathay > 80 armor halberd tier 2
    Range - Chathay > that Sniper is nasty . Dragon gaurd ap range unit that can shoot in curve angle is rare in this game.
    Monster - paper tank vs Optimus Prime who would win ?
    Cavalry - DGK is better however Cathay has way better air force so -------- equally .
    Skmiah - Empire > outriders are good but let's be real , nobody use them .
    Artillery - Cathay don't even need to debate
    Lord - Cathay > Chad miao vs Virgin franz
    Hero - Empire has most useless hero of entire series
    magic - Empire don't even need to debate


    So Cathay 6 - Empire 2 : 1 draw

    The only thing that Empire has better than Cathay is outraider .

    oh i forget the big thing faction ability Yin and Yang . what do Empire have ? Hold the line kewkkkk
    Post edited by Pray#3234 on
  • |FTG|InverseEffect#1203|FTG|InverseEffect#1203 Registered Users Posts: 93
    Empire Infantry need like 45 armor. They have a tech in Campaign that increases it from 35 to like 45 or something.

  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234
    Pray said:

    wInfantry - Cathay > 80 armor halberd tier 2
    Range - Chathay > that Sniper is nasty . Dragon gaurd ap range unit that can shoot in curve angle is rare in this game.
    Monster - paper tank vs Optimus Prime who would win ?
    Cavalry - DGK is better however Cathay has way better air force so -------- equally .
    Skmiah - Empire > outriders are good but let's be real , nobody use them .
    Artillery - Cathay don't even need to debate
    Lord - Cathay > Chad miao vs Virgin franz
    Hero - Empire has most useless hero of entire series
    magic - Empire don't even need to debate


    So Cathay 6 - Empire 2 : 1 draw

    The only thing that Empire has better than Cathay is outraider .

    oh i forget the big thing faction ability Yin and Yang . what do Empire have ? Hold the line kewkkkk

    Are you really comparing a slow melee monster to a mobile artillery piece? If you are just fighting one on one, the Steam Tank will destroy the giant statue, because it has 380 range armor piercing fire against a really big, really slow thing that can't catch it. Yes, the steam tank will lose in melee, because its not that good at melee by SEM standards. It does 2x as much damage with its ranged attacks as it does trying to run things over. Just fyi, if the Steam Tank's 160 armor is "paper", then so is the Terracotta Sentinel's 100 armor.

    If you aren't using Grenadiers and pistoliers, that's not the Empire's fault.

    As far as cavalry goes, its not just Demigryphs. Empire Knights are slightly better than Jade Lancers that don't have Harmony up (slightly worse if the JL does). Reiksguard and KoBS are substantially better than Jade Lancers. Pistoliers will out skirmish Peasant cav unless you let them get caught by the not faster peasants. Great Longma Riders are really good, but they'll lose to Demi's if they don't stay in the air. And I'd rather run over infantry with Demis (who are armor piercing) than Great Longma Riders (who aren't). Flying does make getting into position a lot easier.

    Cathay's missile troops are probably a bit better (shields on the crossbows, longer range on the Crane Gunners). That will probably matter more than the Empire's special options like Fire while moving, stalk, and anti large.

    Cathay's infantry is overall better, though mainly because of harmony and the fact that the Empire's best infantry (greatswords) would get shot up against Cathay most likely.

    The Fire Rain Rockets are certainly more accurate than the Helstorms, but they have about half the ammo and half the armor piercing, so I'd say that's probably a wash. The Empire has other good artillery that Cathay can't match, but I'll grant that LOS targeting bugs make it much less effective than it should be and discount it.

    Empire can have almost any kind of wizard it wants, which is pretty sweet. But the magic of the Cathay lords is pretty good. I'd say that's a draw.


    But..again...who cares how that works out? Are you playing Empire vs Cathay multiplayer? Then it should matter. If you are playing single player, what difference does it make? The baseline unit abilities are going to be absolutely swamped by techs, LL and faction effects, and skill picks.
  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 497

    Pray said:

    wInfantry - Cathay > 80 armor halberd tier 2
    Range - Chathay > that Sniper is nasty . Dragon gaurd ap range unit that can shoot in curve angle is rare in this game.
    Monster - paper tank vs Optimus Prime who would win ?
    Cavalry - DGK is better however Cathay has way better air force so -------- equally .
    Skmiah - Empire > outriders are good but let's be real , nobody use them .
    Artillery - Cathay don't even need to debate
    Lord - Cathay > Chad miao vs Virgin franz
    Hero - Empire has most useless hero of entire series
    magic - Empire don't even need to debate


    So Cathay 6 - Empire 2 : 1 draw

    The only thing that Empire has better than Cathay is outraider .

    oh i forget the big thing faction ability Yin and Yang . what do Empire have ? Hold the line kewkkkk

    Are you really comparing a slow melee monster to a mobile artillery piece? If you are just fighting one on one, the Steam Tank will destroy the giant statue, because it has 380 range armor piercing fire against a really big, really slow thing that can't catch it. Yes, the steam tank will lose in melee, because its not that good at melee by SEM standards. It does 2x as much damage with its ranged attacks as it does trying to run things over. Just fyi, if the Steam Tank's 160 armor is "paper", then so is the Terracotta Sentinel's 100 armor.

    If you aren't using Grenadiers and pistoliers, that's not the Empire's fault.

    As far as cavalry goes, its not just Demigryphs. Empire Knights are slightly better than Jade Lancers that don't have Harmony up (slightly worse if the JL does). Reiksguard and KoBS are substantially better than Jade Lancers. Pistoliers will out skirmish Peasant cav unless you let them get caught by the not faster peasants. Great Longma Riders are really good, but they'll lose to Demi's if they don't stay in the air. And I'd rather run over infantry with Demis (who are armor piercing) than Great Longma Riders (who aren't). Flying does make getting into position a lot easier.

    Cathay's missile troops are probably a bit better (shields on the crossbows, longer range on the Crane Gunners). That will probably matter more than the Empire's special options like Fire while moving, stalk, and anti large.

    Cathay's infantry is overall better, though mainly because of harmony and the fact that the Empire's best infantry (greatswords) would get shot up against Cathay most likely.

    The Fire Rain Rockets are certainly more accurate than the Helstorms, but they have about half the ammo and half the armor piercing, so I'd say that's probably a wash. The Empire has other good artillery that Cathay can't match, but I'll grant that LOS targeting bugs make it much less effective than it should be and discount it.

    Empire can have almost any kind of wizard it wants, which is pretty sweet. But the magic of the Cathay lords is pretty good. I'd say that's a draw.


    But..again...who cares how that works out? Are you playing Empire vs Cathay multiplayer? Then it should matter. If you are playing single player, what difference does it make? The baseline unit abilities are going to be absolutely swamped by techs, LL and faction effects, and skill picks.
    There is no way the a steam tank can destroy another mosnter during a battle. Except the moster do not move.
  • Pray#3234Pray#3234 Registered Users Posts: 1,606

    Pray said:

    wInfantry - Cathay > 80 armor halberd tier 2
    Range - Chathay > that Sniper is nasty . Dragon gaurd ap range unit that can shoot in curve angle is rare in this game.
    Monster - paper tank vs Optimus Prime who would win ?
    Cavalry - DGK is better however Cathay has way better air force so -------- equally .
    Skmiah - Empire > outriders are good but let's be real , nobody use them .
    Artillery - Cathay don't even need to debate
    Lord - Cathay > Chad miao vs Virgin franz
    Hero - Empire has most useless hero of entire series
    magic - Empire don't even need to debate


    So Cathay 6 - Empire 2 : 1 draw

    The only thing that Empire has better than Cathay is outraider .

    oh i forget the big thing faction ability Yin and Yang . what do Empire have ? Hold the line kewkkkk

    Are you really comparing a slow melee monster to a mobile artillery piece? If you are just fighting one on one, the Steam Tank will destroy the giant statue, because it has 380 range armor piercing fire against a really big, really slow thing that can't catch it. Yes, the steam tank will lose in melee, because its not that good at melee by SEM standards. It does 2x as much damage with its ranged attacks as it does trying to run things over. Just fyi, if the Steam Tank's 160 armor is "paper", then so is the Terracotta Sentinel's 100 armor.

    If you aren't using Grenadiers and pistoliers, that's not the Empire's fault.

    As far as cavalry goes, its not just Demigryphs. Empire Knights are slightly better than Jade Lancers that don't have Harmony up (slightly worse if the JL does). Reiksguard and KoBS are substantially better than Jade Lancers. Pistoliers will out skirmish Peasant cav unless you let them get caught by the not faster peasants. Great Longma Riders are really good, but they'll lose to Demi's if they don't stay in the air. And I'd rather run over infantry with Demis (who are armor piercing) than Great Longma Riders (who aren't). Flying does make getting into position a lot easier.

    Cathay's missile troops are probably a bit better (shields on the crossbows, longer range on the Crane Gunners). That will probably matter more than the Empire's special options like Fire while moving, stalk, and anti large.

    Cathay's infantry is overall better, though mainly because of harmony and the fact that the Empire's best infantry (greatswords) would get shot up against Cathay most likely.

    The Fire Rain Rockets are certainly more accurate than the Helstorms, but they have about half the ammo and half the armor piercing, so I'd say that's probably a wash. The Empire has other good artillery that Cathay can't match, but I'll grant that LOS targeting bugs make it much less effective than it should be and discount it.

    Empire can have almost any kind of wizard it wants, which is pretty sweet. But the magic of the Cathay lords is pretty good. I'd say that's a draw.


    But..again...who cares how that works out? Are you playing Empire vs Cathay multiplayer? Then it should matter. If you are playing single player, what difference does it make? The baseline unit abilities are going to be absolutely swamped by techs, LL and faction effects, and skill picks.
    It seem like you never play Cathay and dare saying
    " Cathay's missile troops are probably a bit better than Empire "

    lmao Crane gunner shred everything since 250 range , you don't need Stalk or fire while moving if you just kill them first .

    --- Empire has no faction effect , worst tech , Lord don't have specific skill to buff unit .

    you really count Tech that give Charge defense for Demigryph knight ??????????????????????????????????

    TBH your argument just don't make any sense .
  • Vanilla_Gorilla#8529Vanilla_Gorilla#8529 Registered Users Posts: 39,745

    Pray said:

    wInfantry - Cathay > 80 armor halberd tier 2
    Range - Chathay > that Sniper is nasty . Dragon gaurd ap range unit that can shoot in curve angle is rare in this game.
    Monster - paper tank vs Optimus Prime who would win ?
    Cavalry - DGK is better however Cathay has way better air force so -------- equally .
    Skmiah - Empire > outriders are good but let's be real , nobody use them .
    Artillery - Cathay don't even need to debate
    Lord - Cathay > Chad miao vs Virgin franz
    Hero - Empire has most useless hero of entire series
    magic - Empire don't even need to debate


    So Cathay 6 - Empire 2 : 1 draw

    The only thing that Empire has better than Cathay is outraider .

    oh i forget the big thing faction ability Yin and Yang . what do Empire have ? Hold the line kewkkkk

    Are you really comparing a slow melee monster to a mobile artillery piece? If you are just fighting one on one, the Steam Tank will destroy the giant statue, because it has 380 range armor piercing fire against a really big, really slow thing that can't catch it. Yes, the steam tank will lose in melee, because its not that good at melee by SEM standards. It does 2x as much damage with its ranged attacks as it does trying to run things over. Just fyi, if the Steam Tank's 160 armor is "paper", then so is the Terracotta Sentinel's 100 armor.

    If you aren't using Grenadiers and pistoliers, that's not the Empire's fault.

    As far as cavalry goes, its not just Demigryphs. Empire Knights are slightly better than Jade Lancers that don't have Harmony up (slightly worse if the JL does). Reiksguard and KoBS are substantially better than Jade Lancers. Pistoliers will out skirmish Peasant cav unless you let them get caught by the not faster peasants. Great Longma Riders are really good, but they'll lose to Demi's if they don't stay in the air. And I'd rather run over infantry with Demis (who are armor piercing) than Great Longma Riders (who aren't). Flying does make getting into position a lot easier.

    Cathay's missile troops are probably a bit better (shields on the crossbows, longer range on the Crane Gunners). That will probably matter more than the Empire's special options like Fire while moving, stalk, and anti large.

    Cathay's infantry is overall better, though mainly because of harmony and the fact that the Empire's best infantry (greatswords) would get shot up against Cathay most likely.

    The Fire Rain Rockets are certainly more accurate than the Helstorms, but they have about half the ammo and half the armor piercing, so I'd say that's probably a wash. The Empire has other good artillery that Cathay can't match, but I'll grant that LOS targeting bugs make it much less effective than it should be and discount it.

    Empire can have almost any kind of wizard it wants, which is pretty sweet. But the magic of the Cathay lords is pretty good. I'd say that's a draw.


    But..again...who cares how that works out? Are you playing Empire vs Cathay multiplayer? Then it should matter. If you are playing single player, what difference does it make? The baseline unit abilities are going to be absolutely swamped by techs, LL and faction effects, and skill picks.
    There is no way the a steam tank can destroy another mosnter during a battle. Except the moster do not move.
    Sure. By shooting it. Ez clap.
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  • Helhound#7332Helhound#7332 Registered Users Posts: 5,372
    For the infantry side of things I'm not opposed to Empire Infantry getting a 10 armor bump across the board, but it's a bit disingenuous to say that Cathay infantry is outright better than Empire infantry. Empire units AT THEIR COST, meaning they don't need to win in a vacuum, usually represent a solid middle ground to weigh other factions units against. Jade Warriors to Empire Swordsman for example. Swordsman are something of a gold standard for 400 gold balance, so what does Cathay get for 500? Jade Warriors have -8 MA/-2 CB for only +4 MD and a relatively non-existent 4 LDS. They pay the 100 gold for the 50 extra armor. Whether you think 50 armor is worth 100 gold is up to you, I do, but it doesn't change the fact that they're worse in the MA/MD side of things until Harmony kicks in. This is just one example but you'll see the same thing unit to unit across the board. Empire infantry are cheaper, yet perform similarly or better at the same roles unless Harmony is in effect. It's the same problem that High Elves face, and what keeps both Cathay and the High Elves from being competitive in multiplayer scenarios. They are entirely reliant upon a mechanic that can easily be stripped away from them.

    All this being said I do also agree that the Empire needs something to spruce up their faction. Traits or skills that would help solidify their identity beyond just the really average basic middle of the road faction they've only ever been. Heroes becoming far more relevant on the battlefield, with dedicated auras and effects to bump the line, or factionwide unit effects to build an identity. Something to shake up the 10 year old faction.
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 600
    Helhound said:

    For the infantry side of things I'm not opposed to Empire Infantry getting a 10 armor bump across the board, but it's a bit disingenuous to say that Cathay infantry is outright better than Empire infantry. Empire units AT THEIR COST, meaning they don't need to win in a vacuum, usually represent a solid middle ground to weigh other factions units against. Jade Warriors to Empire Swordsman for example. Swordsman are something of a gold standard for 400 gold balance, so what does Cathay get for 500? Jade Warriors have -8 MA/-2 CB for only +4 MD and a relatively non-existent 4 LDS. They pay the 100 gold for the 50 extra armor. Whether you think 50 armor is worth 100 gold is up to you, I do, but it doesn't change the fact that they're worse in the MA/MD side of things until Harmony kicks in. This is just one example but you'll see the same thing unit to unit across the board. Empire infantry are cheaper, yet perform similarly or better at the same roles unless Harmony is in effect. It's the same problem that High Elves face, and what keeps both Cathay and the High Elves from being competitive in multiplayer scenarios. They are entirely reliant upon a mechanic that can easily be stripped away from them.

    All this being said I do also agree that the Empire needs something to spruce up their faction. Traits or skills that would help solidify their identity beyond just the really average basic middle of the road faction they've only ever been. Heroes becoming far more relevant on the battlefield, with dedicated auras and effects to bump the line, or factionwide unit effects to build an identity. Something to shake up the 10 year old faction.

    I don't care a lick for multiplayer balance, and so while Jade Warriors are more expensive, with less killing power on their own, they are substantially better at holding the line, especially against missile fire, than any empire troops are, and when under the effects of harmony, which in single player battles they nearly always will be, they are stastically superior to standard empire troops in nearly, quite possibly all stats.

    They even get stronger the longer they hold the line. They're sword and board infantry with charge reflection and nearly 120 armor for christ's sake. The empire can't hold a candle to that at any point in the game, and that is Cathay's basic, non expendable line infantry.
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