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  • Pray#3234Pray#3234 Registered Users Posts: 1,606
    Can we stop talking about Yin and Yang ? it's cherry on top .

    raw unit stat Empire is just weaker .

    talking about army ability , why does old faction don't get army ability ? like Yin and Yang , Kislev 10 s unbreakable .

    what do Empire , Bretonian have ?

    nothing .

    oh i forgot they do have Hold the line

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=mKue4WuagL8
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,340
    Pray said:

    Can we stop talking about Yin and Yang ? it's cherry on top .
    .

    what do Empire , Bretonian have ?

    nothing .

    oh i forgot they do have Hold the line

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=mKue4WuagL8

    Ah yes, Bretonnias 20% physical resistance from the Blessing of the Lady is "nothing". Sure it should be a full ward save rather than phys resist to match the TT but still not "nothing".
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,678

    Pray said:

    Can we stop talking about Yin and Yang ? it's cherry on top .
    .

    what do Empire , Bretonian have ?

    nothing .

    oh i forgot they do have Hold the line

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=mKue4WuagL8

    Ah yes, Bretonnias 20% physical resistance from the Blessing of the Lady is "nothing". Sure it should be a full ward save rather than phys resist to match the TT but still not "nothing".
    I expect it'll stay as physical resistance. Remembering that daemons get physical resistance as well and they also have ward save on tabletop.

    The nice thing about Harmony and Formation Attack* for Cathay is that they're always-on, and that sort of always-on effect is something the Empire can't get easily. They get a lot of temporary bonuses which increase micro load and don't have full uptime.

    That's why a good part of fixing the faction is giving their heroes aura effects. Like making the Battle Prayers on the warrior priest have a small permanent aura effect that turns into the full effect when you hit the activatable.

    So eg. Soulfire has a 35m imbue flaming attacks aura and does the fire rain when you press the button, Hammer of Sigmar gives +5MA permanent and goes up to +25 when you press the button, and Shield of Faith is +5% ward save permanent that goes up to +20% when you press the button. (even if the cooldowns have to be a little longer to reflect the increased value)

    Empire Captains are the weakest (and cheapest) melee hero and probably need a bit of an uplift. A bit more AP damage and armour, and new campaign skills that add to Hold the Line to let them assist other nearby infantry and make them better fighters in campaign (add some Bonus vs. Infantry in their tech tree for instance).

    Witch Hunters should have an immune to psychology aura (instead of a 2 point +5 leadership what even is Grim Resolve) and be able to imbue magic attacks with an ability, and either anti-large to their pistol attack and/or trade it for a repeater pistol.

    You could maybe also make a weaker version of Guardian, like +5% Physical Resist for characters, call it "Get Down, Sir!" and put it on all state troops (but not irregulars like Flagellants/Free Companies, artillery crews or knights), to reflect them protecting the heroes back.

    *Formation attack should probably come with -4MA to go with its +8MD now that Harmony has +4MA. Also now it's fixed it could be applied to other "disciplined" infantry regiments outside Cathay, Harmony feels thematic and unique, "stand in your square" feels like something that could apply to others that value discipline.
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,340
    bli-nk said:

    Empire has better cavalry, magic, and vehicles than Cathay. Cathay has stronger ranged, and melee units with artillery basically being equal.

    The Empire roster really only need 1 unit that had durability other than Flaggellants which are basically 1 LLs special unit. If the Cult of Ulric and Sigmar get in Flaggellants could possibly be more widespread or the Teutogen Guard being Greatswords that have some staying power.

    Knights of the Wolf could be anti-infanty weaker Questing Knights while Knight of the Panther would be a faster moving version of Reiksguard that has a bit of staying power but mostly the speed and ability to hit similar tier targets pretty hard if they get the charge to make up for Empire lack of flying units and that most of the Empire roster is pretty slow other than their light cavalry.

    It is harder to filll gaps in an Empire roster that is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none, journeyman at artillery and cavalry compared to Cathay which we can expect to get several new units with new LPs.

    It does seem likely that Empire will get at least 2 further LL and if each comes with 1 new unit that m might be enough. Empire really does not need much for units. More of a rework on campaign mechanics and LHs.

    I'm not sure why it is so important that the Empire does not get the same treatment as say High Elves, Skaven or Warriors of Chaos?

    Even counting conservativly there are literally about a dozen units and unit variants missing from the Empire roster but Empire should not get more than 2 DLC units??!!
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,678

    bli-nk said:

    Empire has better cavalry, magic, and vehicles than Cathay. Cathay has stronger ranged, and melee units with artillery basically being equal.

    The Empire roster really only need 1 unit that had durability other than Flaggellants which are basically 1 LLs special unit. If the Cult of Ulric and Sigmar get in Flaggellants could possibly be more widespread or the Teutogen Guard being Greatswords that have some staying power.

    Knights of the Wolf could be anti-infanty weaker Questing Knights while Knight of the Panther would be a faster moving version of Reiksguard that has a bit of staying power but mostly the speed and ability to hit similar tier targets pretty hard if they get the charge to make up for Empire lack of flying units and that most of the Empire roster is pretty slow other than their light cavalry.

    It is harder to filll gaps in an Empire roster that is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none, journeyman at artillery and cavalry compared to Cathay which we can expect to get several new units with new LPs.

    It does seem likely that Empire will get at least 2 further LL and if each comes with 1 new unit that m might be enough. Empire really does not need much for units. More of a rework on campaign mechanics and LHs.

    I'm not sure why it is so important that the Empire does not get the same treatment as say High Elves, Skaven or Warriors of Chaos?

    Even counting conservativly there are literally about a dozen units and unit variants missing from the Empire roster but Empire should not get more than 2 DLC units??!!
    The Empire doesn't have all that much design space left though.

    Like people want Teutogen Guard but they're just Greatswords that can hit a little bit harder*, and you can make Greatswords hit harder by making Greatswords hit harder (but the problem is that they need to hit more not harder).

    The Priest of Ulric isn't going to have a lot of variation over the standard Warrior Priest, and the Empire already has 4 heroes and has one missing from their actual armybook still (Master Engineer). It's just that a couple of their heroes are a bit crap and you fix that by making them better.

    So most of the new units people want really just fill an existing role but do it better, and you can cover that by making the unit that fills that role do it better.

    And this whilst the Empire still isn't even armybook complete.

    * And that wasn't even their base profile, it was an upgrade that made their hammers use Halberd rules. They also lost Always Strikes Last but at I3 they almost always hit last anyway.
  • Serkelet#1834Serkelet#1834 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,083
    edited September 2022
    delete this post, please
    Post edited by Serkelet#1834 on
  • Serkelet#1834Serkelet#1834 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,083

    Counterpoint: the Empire has far better cavalry options, way more variety in artillery options, some of them can be devastating and melee lord and hero options that outclass Cathayan ones in that department.

    Points I agree with: State troops definitely could use a +10 base armor to reflect wearing actual plate cuirasses. Also, maybe easing access to magic.

    Once Cathay starts to get DLC that is bound to change, after all they still only have their starting roster. We can only really compared the two fully when Cathay has had two DLC. But so far their powercurve is well ahead that of the Empire, particularly since any overperforming Empire units have been thoroughly hammer with nerfs after 6 years of MP.
    I agree with you. Personally, add to my list of buffs an unnerf to demigryph knights. Give them back their stats, please. There is no reason for them to be the worst monstrous cavalry in the game at the moment.

    However, why is it a problem if Cathay is more powerful than the Empire at the moment? If it is at all.
    Why is that? Someone's got to be the worst and it makes sense it's the human one.

    And that's ignoring the fact that it's not even bad to begin with. You're only comparing the unit in a vacuum rather than its role in the larger roster as a whole
    But... but... demis are cool man! Just a little melee attack and defence boost... please?
  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 825
    edited September 2022
    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.
  • Serkelet#1834Serkelet#1834 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,083

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why does Cathay in particular need nerfs? There are many factions in the game that are performing even better. Why targetting Cathay? They are in an ok spot right now, nerfing them will sink them in the pits of darkness.
  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234
    Pray said:



    It seem like you never play Cathay and dare saying
    " Cathay's missile troops are probably a bit better than Empire "

    lmao Crane gunner shred everything since 250 range , you don't need Stalk or fire while moving if you just kill them first .

    --- Empire has no faction effect , worst tech , Lord don't have specific skill to buff unit .

    you really count Tech that give Charge defense for Demigryph knight ??????????????????????????????????

    TBH your argument just don't make any sense .

    Crane Gunners are basically Jezzails. They are really good. If you protect them and get them a good LOS position, they'll do a lot of damage.

    I'm guessing your definition of "Empire" is only Karl Franz (whose faction effect on troops is just recruit rank?). Because Gelt gives every unit in any of his armies +10 Armor. And Volkmar gives Flagellants, Empire Knights, and Free Company a bonus vs Infantry. So "no faction effect" is not true.

    Worst Tech is just thing you say without any support. There's no tech that gives charge defense to Demi Gryph Knights that I can see. The cavalry bonus techs give armor, melee defense, melee attack, charge bonuse, leadership, and vigour loss reduction.

    And, again, you talk about the Empire as if its Karl Franz. Volkmar and Markus certainly buff units with unique LL skills. I can't recall if Gelt does.

    Anyway, you still haven't addressed the real question, which is why does this matter in a single player game? Do you honestly expect that all 80 lords are going to be equally to your taste? There's a variety for a reason.
  • Data5#9904Data5#9904 Registered Users Posts: 527
    Pray said:

    Can we stop talking about Yin and Yang ?
    why does old faction don't get army ability ? like Yin and Yang

  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,678


    Worst Tech is just thing you say without any support.

    The Empire's tech effects aren't great. They're not the worst, that's the Vampire Coast.

    They're pretty good for ranged stuff and they're efficient due to not needing many techs and having them apply to lots of different units, but their infantry techs are heavily defensively biased which is one reason Greatswords are let down.
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,340

    bli-nk said:

    Empire has better cavalry, magic, and vehicles than Cathay. Cathay has stronger ranged, and melee units with artillery basically being equal.

    The Empire roster really only need 1 unit that had durability other than Flaggellants which are basically 1 LLs special unit. If the Cult of Ulric and Sigmar get in Flaggellants could possibly be more widespread or the Teutogen Guard being Greatswords that have some staying power.

    Knights of the Wolf could be anti-infanty weaker Questing Knights while Knight of the Panther would be a faster moving version of Reiksguard that has a bit of staying power but mostly the speed and ability to hit similar tier targets pretty hard if they get the charge to make up for Empire lack of flying units and that most of the Empire roster is pretty slow other than their light cavalry.

    It is harder to filll gaps in an Empire roster that is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none, journeyman at artillery and cavalry compared to Cathay which we can expect to get several new units with new LPs.

    It does seem likely that Empire will get at least 2 further LL and if each comes with 1 new unit that m might be enough. Empire really does not need much for units. More of a rework on campaign mechanics and LHs.

    I'm not sure why it is so important that the Empire does not get the same treatment as say High Elves, Skaven or Warriors of Chaos?

    Even counting conservativly there are literally about a dozen units and unit variants missing from the Empire roster but Empire should not get more than 2 DLC units??!!
    The Empire doesn't have all that much design space left though.

    Like people want Teutogen Guard but they're just Greatswords that can hit a little bit harder*, and you can make Greatswords hit harder by making Greatswords hit harder (but the problem is that they need to hit more not harder).

    The Priest of Ulric isn't going to have a lot of variation over the standard Warrior Priest, and the Empire already has 4 heroes and has one missing from their actual armybook still (Master Engineer). It's just that a couple of their heroes are a bit crap and you fix that by making them better.

    So most of the new units people want really just fill an existing role but do it better, and you can cover that by making the unit that fills that role do it better.

    And this whilst the Empire still isn't even armybook complete.

    * And that wasn't even their base profile, it was an upgrade that made their hammers use Halberd rules. They also lost Always Strikes Last but at I3 they almost always hit last anyway.
    The Teutogen Guard upgrade was that they could be turned into Inner Circle Knights, their hammers always functioned as halberds. At least that was the case in the Storm of Chaos version of their rules.

    I would argue that we are long since past the point where design space and unit roles restric which units can units added or not. Other armies have outgrown such restrictions and there is no reason for the Empire to be tied down.

    'Flavour' also matters a lot in TWWH, that is why we have marked Exalted Heroes and Chaos Sorcerors and that is why the Empire should have Priest of Ulric alongside the Warrior Priests of Sigmar. (And the prayers of the two cults had pretty different effects.) Flavour is also why we need the other missing Empire units even if they are sidegrades rather than straight upgrades, a Middenland or Cult of Ulric army should look and play differently from a Reikland or Nuln one.






    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,547

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why does Cathay in particular need nerfs? There are many factions in the game that are performing even better. Why targetting Cathay? They are in an ok spot right now, nerfing them will sink them in the pits of darkness.
    The formation attack MD buff kind of broke the faction that need a nerf

    So does peasent spears way too good for cost


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,678

    bli-nk said:

    Empire has better cavalry, magic, and vehicles than Cathay. Cathay has stronger ranged, and melee units with artillery basically being equal.

    The Empire roster really only need 1 unit that had durability other than Flaggellants which are basically 1 LLs special unit. If the Cult of Ulric and Sigmar get in Flaggellants could possibly be more widespread or the Teutogen Guard being Greatswords that have some staying power.

    Knights of the Wolf could be anti-infanty weaker Questing Knights while Knight of the Panther would be a faster moving version of Reiksguard that has a bit of staying power but mostly the speed and ability to hit similar tier targets pretty hard if they get the charge to make up for Empire lack of flying units and that most of the Empire roster is pretty slow other than their light cavalry.

    It is harder to filll gaps in an Empire roster that is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none, journeyman at artillery and cavalry compared to Cathay which we can expect to get several new units with new LPs.

    It does seem likely that Empire will get at least 2 further LL and if each comes with 1 new unit that m might be enough. Empire really does not need much for units. More of a rework on campaign mechanics and LHs.

    I'm not sure why it is so important that the Empire does not get the same treatment as say High Elves, Skaven or Warriors of Chaos?

    Even counting conservativly there are literally about a dozen units and unit variants missing from the Empire roster but Empire should not get more than 2 DLC units??!!
    The Empire doesn't have all that much design space left though.

    Like people want Teutogen Guard but they're just Greatswords that can hit a little bit harder*, and you can make Greatswords hit harder by making Greatswords hit harder (but the problem is that they need to hit more not harder).

    The Priest of Ulric isn't going to have a lot of variation over the standard Warrior Priest, and the Empire already has 4 heroes and has one missing from their actual armybook still (Master Engineer). It's just that a couple of their heroes are a bit crap and you fix that by making them better.

    So most of the new units people want really just fill an existing role but do it better, and you can cover that by making the unit that fills that role do it better.

    And this whilst the Empire still isn't even armybook complete.

    * And that wasn't even their base profile, it was an upgrade that made their hammers use Halberd rules. They also lost Always Strikes Last but at I3 they almost always hit last anyway.
    The Teutogen Guard upgrade was that they could be turned into Inner Circle Knights, their hammers always functioned as halberds. At least that was the case in the Storm of Chaos version of their rules.

    I would argue that we are long since past the point where design space and unit roles restric which units can units added or not. Other armies have outgrown such restrictions and there is no reason for the Empire to be tied down.

    'Flavour' also matters a lot in TWWH, that is why we have marked Exalted Heroes and Chaos Sorcerors and that is why the Empire should have Priest of Ulric alongside the Warrior Priests of Sigmar. (And the prayers of the two cults had pretty different effects.) Flavour is also why we need the other missing Empire units even if they are sidegrades rather than straight upgrades, a Middenland or Cult of Ulric army should look and play differently from a Reikland or Nuln one.
    That's the sort of thing that can be worried about at the end of the lifecycle. Right now it's more important to get the basic Empire flavour right. And that means fixing their core stuff like Greatswords and their old boring heroes and generic lords.
    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why does Cathay in particular need nerfs? There are many factions in the game that are performing even better. Why targetting Cathay? They are in an ok spot right now, nerfing them will sink them in the pits of darkness.
    The formation attack MD buff kind of broke the faction that need a nerf

    So does peasent spears way too good for cost

    The formation attack buff is only a problem if you can add harmony on top of it, which is why Cathay is still only doing averagely in battle types where harmony is harder to maintain. Until it got that +8MD it was just worse to use it all the time in every situation.

    And even then it's only because they added some +MA to harmony as well as +MD.
  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234


    Worst Tech is just thing you say without any support.

    The Empire's tech effects aren't great. They're not the worst, that's the Vampire Coast.

    They're pretty good for ranged stuff and they're efficient due to not needing many techs and having them apply to lots of different units, but their infantry techs are heavily defensively biased which is one reason Greatswords are let down.
    Yeah. Karl Franz's big reduction in upkeep and whatnot for Greatswords is cool, but making Greatswords do their actual job would be better :pensive:

    I just don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the empire's army. I always like new content but I'd really like to have content that provides a new way of playing the game rather than just a slight variation of the same. There's nothing wrong with flavor units or Lords. But I would much rather have a new way of playing Empire (like Marcus) than another lord doing the usual Empire campaign. And most suggestions are just versions of what is already there.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,547

    bli-nk said:

    Empire has better cavalry, magic, and vehicles than Cathay. Cathay has stronger ranged, and melee units with artillery basically being equal.

    The Empire roster really only need 1 unit that had durability other than Flaggellants which are basically 1 LLs special unit. If the Cult of Ulric and Sigmar get in Flaggellants could possibly be more widespread or the Teutogen Guard being Greatswords that have some staying power.

    Knights of the Wolf could be anti-infanty weaker Questing Knights while Knight of the Panther would be a faster moving version of Reiksguard that has a bit of staying power but mostly the speed and ability to hit similar tier targets pretty hard if they get the charge to make up for Empire lack of flying units and that most of the Empire roster is pretty slow other than their light cavalry.

    It is harder to filll gaps in an Empire roster that is pretty much a jack of all trades, master of none, journeyman at artillery and cavalry compared to Cathay which we can expect to get several new units with new LPs.

    It does seem likely that Empire will get at least 2 further LL and if each comes with 1 new unit that m might be enough. Empire really does not need much for units. More of a rework on campaign mechanics and LHs.

    I'm not sure why it is so important that the Empire does not get the same treatment as say High Elves, Skaven or Warriors of Chaos?

    Even counting conservativly there are literally about a dozen units and unit variants missing from the Empire roster but Empire should not get more than 2 DLC units??!!
    The Empire doesn't have all that much design space left though.

    Like people want Teutogen Guard but they're just Greatswords that can hit a little bit harder*, and you can make Greatswords hit harder by making Greatswords hit harder (but the problem is that they need to hit more not harder).

    The Priest of Ulric isn't going to have a lot of variation over the standard Warrior Priest, and the Empire already has 4 heroes and has one missing from their actual armybook still (Master Engineer). It's just that a couple of their heroes are a bit crap and you fix that by making them better.

    So most of the new units people want really just fill an existing role but do it better, and you can cover that by making the unit that fills that role do it better.

    And this whilst the Empire still isn't even armybook complete.

    * And that wasn't even their base profile, it was an upgrade that made their hammers use Halberd rules. They also lost Always Strikes Last but at I3 they almost always hit last anyway.
    The Teutogen Guard upgrade was that they could be turned into Inner Circle Knights, their hammers always functioned as halberds. At least that was the case in the Storm of Chaos version of their rules.

    I would argue that we are long since past the point where design space and unit roles restric which units can units added or not. Other armies have outgrown such restrictions and there is no reason for the Empire to be tied down.

    'Flavour' also matters a lot in TWWH, that is why we have marked Exalted Heroes and Chaos Sorcerors and that is why the Empire should have Priest of Ulric alongside the Warrior Priests of Sigmar. (And the prayers of the two cults had pretty different effects.) Flavour is also why we need the other missing Empire units even if they are sidegrades rather than straight upgrades, a Middenland or Cult of Ulric army should look and play differently from a Reikland or Nuln one.
    That's the sort of thing that can be worried about at the end of the lifecycle. Right now it's more important to get the basic Empire flavour right. And that means fixing their core stuff like Greatswords and their old boring heroes and generic lords.
    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why does Cathay in particular need nerfs? There are many factions in the game that are performing even better. Why targetting Cathay? They are in an ok spot right now, nerfing them will sink them in the pits of darkness.
    The formation attack MD buff kind of broke the faction that need a nerf

    So does peasent spears way too good for cost

    The formation attack buff is only a problem if you can add harmony on top of it, which is why Cathay is still only doing averagely in battle types where harmony is harder to maintain. Until it got that +8MD it was just worse to use it all the time in every situation.

    And even then it's only because they added some +MA to harmony as well as +MD.
    Your correct that is the issue

    As it currently stands cathay is more less becoming coast before nerfs

    So it need nerfs like how many races can break down cathay onion or box

    Out side of empire , dwarfs, skaven, he may be kislev

    Easily.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • eomat#7953eomat#7953 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,913
    There is still so much for the Empire that CA can do. I have high hopes for what is coming.
  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,921

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,547

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.


    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,921
    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 600

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    As the person who started the thread, I don't think Cathay should be nerfed, nor do I agree that Cathay is even overpowered.

    The empire simply needs to be brought up to standard.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,547

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,921
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,547

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,340


    I just don't think there is anything fundamentally wrong with the empire's army. I always like new content but I'd really like to have content that provides a new way of playing the game rather than just a slight variation of the same. There's nothing wrong with flavor units or Lords. But I would much rather have a new way of playing Empire (like Marcus) than another lord doing the usual Empire campaign. And most suggestions are just versions of what is already there.

    But what is Markus except a flavour lord with some extra bells and whistles? And the problem with Markus type lords is that they may very well deliver good or even excellent content in the 'Markus' part of the DLC but deliver poorly for the race as a whole.

    Markus Wulfhart is a good example of this, the major reason why the War Wagon turned into the worst unit in the game at the time was not only the weapon bug but that CA focused on making it and it's variants part of the skirmish focused playstyle they envisioned for Markus rather than trying to implement the actual tabletop unit or a unit that was usefull for the Empire as a whole. Likewise the overhaul of the Tech tree was more focused on delivering a Markus Wulfhart tech tree that was then adapted to the Empire rather than building a good Empire tech tree. Some techs were clearly removed because they would have been too useful for Markus in an updated form.

    This does not mean that CA should not do that kind of campaigns in the future but when they do they must be a bit more careful to balance the efforts.
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,921
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,547

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?
    Land battle

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,921
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?
    Land battle
    Hows that different from cathay then
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,340

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    In theory a lot of the content released from the Prophet and the Warlock on should be hammered pretty hard with nerfs to bring them in line with the older races that are still tied in some what to the asymetric design of WH1. Cathay is just one of many and Kislev is indeed included in that group.

    But that would be a pretty unfun approach and would spark massive ammounts of pushback so now the only way is to abandon the original design ideas even more by boosting the older races so that they can close the gap.
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
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