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  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?
    Land battle
    Hows that different from cathay then
    Because the new dom meta allows cathay to use this in dom

    Not that i give flying **** about dom

    But dom issues of cathay to CA to continously buff cathay untill we ended up in this situation

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,868
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?
    Land battle
    Hows that different from cathay then
    Because the new dom meta allows cathay to use this in dom

    Not that i give flying **** about dom

    But dom issues of cathay to CA to continously buff cathay untill we ended up in this situation
    And yet they are still one of the worst performing in dom. Kislev on the other hand, are one of the top in both land battles and dom.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?
    Land battle
    Hows that different from cathay then
    Because the new dom meta allows cathay to use this in dom

    Not that i give flying **** about dom

    But dom issues of cathay to CA to continously buff cathay untill we ended up in this situation
    And yet they are still one of the worst performing in dom. Kislev on the other hand, are one of the top in both land battles and dom.
    Pretty sure this isn't the case .

    But as i said again both need nerfs . Busted is busted.


    This just makes the game bad.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • talonn#7575talonn#7575 Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,868
    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?
    Land battle
    Hows that different from cathay then
    Because the new dom meta allows cathay to use this in dom

    Not that i give flying **** about dom

    But dom issues of cathay to CA to continously buff cathay untill we ended up in this situation
    And yet they are still one of the worst performing in dom. Kislev on the other hand, are one of the top in both land battles and dom.
    Pretty sure this isn't the case .

    But as i said again both need nerfs . Busted is busted.


    This just makes the game bad.
    Lol pretty sure you're wrong then.

  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,553

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    Domination is their new multiplayer hotness and Cathay aren't good at it because they can't get harmony anywhere near as well, but they're costed as if they have it up somewhat consistently.
  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    saweendra said:

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why single out cathay? Should we nerf kislev as well, since their infantry stats are insane even without any need of harmony buff?
    Cathay nerfs are cathay nerfs


    Kislev nerfs are kislev nerfs. And yes people have ideas on that too.

    Lol sure man. But the call for cathay nerf is way louder
    yeah because CA hasn't paid attention to Lbs
    What
    All of kiselvs busted abilities and units mainly effects lbs
    Whats lbs? Land battles? Or?
    Land battle
    Hows that different from cathay then
    Because the new dom meta allows cathay to use this in dom

    Not that i give flying **** about dom

    But dom issues of cathay to CA to continously buff cathay untill we ended up in this situation
    And yet they are still one of the worst performing in dom. Kislev on the other hand, are one of the top in both land battles and dom.
    Pretty sure this isn't the case .

    But as i said again both need nerfs . Busted is busted.


    This just makes the game bad.
    Lol pretty sure you're wrong then.

    In the total ecology of the game, who knows? But in the youtube community tournaments that report in to TotalTavern, since the patch, Cathay has a 59% win rate (79-54), Kislev has a 31% win rate (19-42). The "completely awful and has to be fixed" Empire is 49% (59-62).

    Now, these stats are only for the main tournaments, not the newbie tournaments. And its only the thousand or so players who have played in one or more of these events.
  • Kn_Gars#2718Kn_Gars#2718 Registered Users Posts: 3,275



    In the total ecology of the game, who knows? But in the youtube community tournaments that report in to TotalTavern, since the patch, Cathay has a 59% win rate (79-54), Kislev has a 31% win rate (19-42). The "completely awful and has to be fixed" Empire is 49% (59-62).

    Now, these stats are only for the main tournaments, not the newbie tournaments. And its only the thousand or so players who have played in one or more of these events.

    MP and SP have entirely different goals and requirements. MP is about winning at any cost, SP is about winning efficiently so that you can engage in multiple battles in a turn if necessary. Based on the MP tournaments I have seen the common MP victory would lead to disaster in most campaigns since the 'winning' army is often a wreck afterwards.

    A race can do fine in the current MP Meta yet be falling behind in SP. Which is why CA's focus on balancing based on MP can and will lead to problems. Since contrary to what is often said by those supporting this approach more than a few units have few if any campaign buffs that can compensate for nerfs to key stats. If CA balanced for both MP & SP they could use tech and skills to adjust units for the needs of SP without impacting the stat balance which is important for MP. But sadly they are not willing to take that approach.
    The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,932

    Counterpoint: the Empire has far better cavalry options, way more variety in artillery options, some of them can be devastating and melee lord and hero options that outclass Cathayan ones in that department.

    Points I agree with: State troops definitely could use a +10 base armor to reflect wearing actual plate cuirasses. Also, maybe easing access to magic.

    Once Cathay starts to get DLC that is bound to change, after all they still only have their starting roster. We can only really compared the two fully when Cathay has had two DLC. But so far their powercurve is well ahead that of the Empire, particularly since any overperforming Empire units have been thoroughly hammer with nerfs after 6 years of MP.
    I agree with you. Personally, add to my list of buffs an unnerf to demigryph knights. Give them back their stats, please. There is no reason for them to be the worst monstrous cavalry in the game at the moment.

    However, why is it a problem if Cathay is more powerful than the Empire at the moment? If it is at all.
    Why is that? Someone's got to be the worst and it makes sense it's the human one.

    And that's ignoring the fact that it's not even bad to begin with. You're only comparing the unit in a vacuum rather than its role in the larger roster as a whole
    But... but... demis are cool man! Just a little melee attack and defence boost... please?
    If they're underpowered, sure. But they're really really not bad at all. They don't underperform and they do their job as heavy monstrous infantry.

    You want to buff something...well nothing in Empire needs any buffs atm

    In the history of TWWH the only units who are legitimately weak and in need of buffing were the Crypt Horrors and Cairn Wraiths, both of whom got their much needed buffs in the VC update. The majority of other units don't need a whole lot of buffs, better those who are overperforming get some numbers shaved off instead.


    That's why a good part of fixing the faction is giving their heroes aura effects. Like making the Battle Prayers on the warrior priest have a small permanent aura effect that turns into the full effect when you hit the activatable.

    So eg. Soulfire has a 35m imbue flaming attacks aura and does the fire rain when you press the button, Hammer of Sigmar gives +5MA permanent and goes up to +25 when you press the button, and Shield of Faith is +5% ward save permanent that goes up to +20% when you press the button. (even if the cooldowns have to be a little longer to reflect the increased value)

    Empire Captains are the weakest (and cheapest) melee hero and probably need a bit of an uplift. A bit more AP damage and armour, and new campaign skills that add to Hold the Line to let them assist other nearby infantry and make them better fighters in campaign (add some Bonus vs. Infantry in their tech tree for instance).

    Witch Hunters should have an immune to psychology aura (instead of a 2 point +5 leadership what even is Grim Resolve) and be able to imbue magic attacks with an ability, and either anti-large to their pistol attack and/or trade it for a repeater pistol.


    Stop turning Empire Heroes into more than what they're supposed to be.

    -Soulfire is already one of the best nukes in the game for any generic character. It's an AoE nuke on a cooldown that costs ZERO WOM

    -as you said yourself, the Empire Captain is one of the cheapest melee hero, so it's good that they're one of the weakest statistically. They do their job well. Armoured, cost efficient melee stats. They're a good baseline warrior hero for new players to get a hang of before they play. They're not blessed super humans, they're not dinosaur super soldiers, nor are they blessed by chaos gods, they're high ranking regular humans.

    -your Witch Hunter changes outright changed what they even are, who atm already have a niche as a high damage hybrid unit


    You want to give Empire something? Just give them their Gold Wizard and provide them with a generic caster lord.


    (however I do like the concept of a very weak aura that becomes slightly stronger on activation, but the Priests and Archlectors are currently fine, this change can only be a side-grade rather than a straight up buff)
  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234
    My comment was specifically in response to several comments about how well teams were doing in Domination.

    As for nonsense about CA buffing units solely or even primarily based on MP, its just that: nonsense. Every game in creation that has both MP and SP has this whinging. But its a hallucination. Game companies are not, in general, morons or incompetent. Or as ill informed as the player base.

    CA has vastly more data from steam metrics and other user data than any player will ever see about what is actually going on in single player games. Just because the only thing *we* see is some one on the forums or youtube complaining does not mean that's all they see. Correllation is not causation, as the saying goes.

    Since MP uses base line units, it does have some value in determining performance at that level. But that's just a factor in any competent analysis.

    Its just like how devs generally have to weight the random dice in some kinds of games so they match user expectation of random, instead of actually being random. Or how the "internet wisdom" is that Rangers in D&D 5e are garbage, but the actual user stats available to WotC indicate its one of the most played classes they have.

    That's just the way the world works. Players assume they know more than they do and that the devs know less than they do. So they attribute dev decisions to factors that are available to the players just because its a thing they can blame.
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,553


    -as you said yourself, the Empire Captain is one of the cheapest melee hero, so it's good that they're one of the weakest statistically. They do their job well. Armoured, cost efficient melee stats. They're a good baseline warrior hero for new players to get a hang of before they play. They're not blessed super humans, they're not dinosaur super soldiers, nor are they blessed by chaos gods, they're high ranking regular humans.

    Trouble is, in campaign the cheapest melee hero costs the same army slot as the most expensive, and Empire Captains do not earn their slot. That's why the answer is to make very minor changes to the baseline and put interesting stuff in the skill tree that affects nearby units more. That means they're campaign exclusive and the Empire Captain can still be cheap for multiplayer.

    The Witch Hunter right now is a terrible implementation of what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to make their unit treat Terror as Fear and automatically pass what start as Fear tests (not quite immune to psych but a lot closer to it than spending 2 skill points for +5 leadership for themselves, one of the worst skill allocations in the entire game).

    They are, again, a hero you only use in battle if you physically can't recruit literally anything else to fill that slot.

    The answer is to make Empire heroes buff surrounding troops via their skill trees so they can earn their place in an army rather than being forever doomed to being map agents.
  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 485

    Pray said:

    Can we stop talking about Yin and Yang ? it's cherry on top .
    .

    what do Empire , Bretonian have ?

    nothing .

    oh i forgot they do have Hold the line

    https://youtube.com/watch?v=mKue4WuagL8

    Ah yes, Bretonnias 20% physical resistance from the Blessing of the Lady is "nothing". Sure it should be a full ward save rather than phys resist to match the TT but still not "nothing".
    Bravo than you get peasants with physical restistance while each faction now got magical attacks for free.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327


    -as you said yourself, the Empire Captain is one of the cheapest melee hero, so it's good that they're one of the weakest statistically. They do their job well. Armoured, cost efficient melee stats. They're a good baseline warrior hero for new players to get a hang of before they play. They're not blessed super humans, they're not dinosaur super soldiers, nor are they blessed by chaos gods, they're high ranking regular humans.

    Trouble is, in campaign the cheapest melee hero costs the same army slot as the most expensive, and Empire Captains do not earn their slot. That's why the answer is to make very minor changes to the baseline and put interesting stuff in the skill tree that affects nearby units more. That means they're campaign exclusive and the Empire Captain can still be cheap for multiplayer.

    The Witch Hunter right now is a terrible implementation of what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to make their unit treat Terror as Fear and automatically pass what start as Fear tests (not quite immune to psych but a lot closer to it than spending 2 skill points for +5 leadership for themselves, one of the worst skill allocations in the entire game).

    They are, again, a hero you only use in battle if you physically can't recruit literally anything else to fill that slot.

    The answer is to make Empire heroes buff surrounding troops via their skill trees so they can earn their place in an army rather than being forever doomed to being map agents.
    i mean i don't like this but i will not stand against as long as its skill tree only stuff go for it.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • GreenColouredGreenColoured Registered Users Posts: 6,932


    -as you said yourself, the Empire Captain is one of the cheapest melee hero, so it's good that they're one of the weakest statistically. They do their job well. Armoured, cost efficient melee stats. They're a good baseline warrior hero for new players to get a hang of before they play. They're not blessed super humans, they're not dinosaur super soldiers, nor are they blessed by chaos gods, they're high ranking regular humans.

    Trouble is, in campaign the cheapest melee hero costs the same army slot as the most expensive, and Empire Captains do not earn their slot. That's why the answer is to make very minor changes to the baseline and put interesting stuff in the skill tree that affects nearby units more. That means they're campaign exclusive and the Empire Captain can still be cheap for multiplayer.

    The Witch Hunter right now is a terrible implementation of what they're supposed to be. They're supposed to make their unit treat Terror as Fear and automatically pass what start as Fear tests (not quite immune to psych but a lot closer to it than spending 2 skill points for +5 leadership for themselves, one of the worst skill allocations in the entire game).

    They are, again, a hero you only use in battle if you physically can't recruit literally anything else to fill that slot.

    The answer is to make Empire heroes buff surrounding troops via their skill trees so they can earn their place in an army rather than being forever doomed to being map agents.
    Then fix the campaign so gold and unit costs actually mean a damn.


    What's even the point of having currency in the campaign when the player's economy goes nuclear around turns 20-50 and stop mattering how much you blow every turn? What's the point of a unit's recruitment cost or upkeep cost when nobody gives a **** about it? Or hell implement a unit cap system, either TT based or one based off a cost budget per category so different tiers of Heroes and costs fit in.


    Anything but literally turning a unit into something they're not. Let a normal human captain remain a normal human captain.
  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234
    I think the only Empire unit whose "problem" requires stat fixes is the Greatsword. They aren't useful in MP, they aren't useful in Single player. They just underperform, period.

    But most of the rest of the stuff is not a stats problem. Luminarks and Volleyguns would be fine if LOS in this game wasn't so wonky in places. Mortars are fine when the AI isn't doing cheerleader evolutions on the field.

    The Steam Tank's problem is how much ranged armor piercing is out there.

    The Greatswords' problems are compounded by an unduly difficult recruiting prerequisite.

    The Empire Captain's main virtue being cheapness is undervalued by the way the campaign works. There's nothing wrong with his stats for his cost. But saving money is rarely a thing in SP after a while.

    All the missing units except the Engineer hero are more of the same that we already have. Cool for flavor and all that jazz, but not going to alter the Empire's general performance. Especially if you fix Greatswords instead of just replace them with a better variant.
  • KIT#5531KIT#5531 Registered Users Posts: 485

    I think the only Empire unit whose "problem" requires stat fixes is the Greatsword. They aren't useful in MP, they aren't useful in Single player. They just underperform, period.

    But most of the rest of the stuff is not a stats problem. Luminarks and Volleyguns would be fine if LOS in this game wasn't so wonky in places. Mortars are fine when the AI isn't doing cheerleader evolutions on the field.

    The Steam Tank's problem is how much ranged armor piercing is out there.

    The Greatswords' problems are compounded by an unduly difficult recruiting prerequisite.

    The Empire Captain's main virtue being cheapness is undervalued by the way the campaign works. There's nothing wrong with his stats for his cost. But saving money is rarely a thing in SP after a while.

    All the missing units except the Engineer hero are more of the same that we already have. Cool for flavor and all that jazz, but not going to alter the Empire's general performance. Especially if you fix Greatswords instead of just replace them with a better variant.

    Demigryph Knights also very bad they got a nerf in the past but now there are many similar units which are much better.
  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234
    I'm just gonna go with -we have irreconcilably different definitions of 'very bad'- on that one.
  • dge1dge1 Moderator Arkansas, USARegistered Users, Moderators, Knights Posts: 23,687
    Take it easy folks.
    "The two most common things in the universe are Hydrogen and Stupidity." - Harlan Ellison
    "The right to be heard does not automatically include the right to be taken seriously." - Hubert H. Humphrey
    "Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” - George Carlin/Mark Twain
    “Those who cannot remember the past are condemned to repeat it.”–George Santayana, The Life of Reason, 1905.

  • NightOfTheDeadNightOfTheDead Member Registered Users Posts: 825

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why does Cathay in particular need nerfs? There are many factions in the game that are performing even better. Why targetting Cathay? They are in an ok spot right now, nerfing them will sink them in the pits of darkness.
    Don't you want to play a fair game? Don't you want to say, look i won cause of my strategy not because my units perform way beter than they supposed to?

    Cathay harmony bonuses makes every single unit to perform way above their intended value. Tests have been done, CAthay is way over the top in effectiveness.

    Problem with harmony is that it is always in effect and unit loses bonuses in extremely rare circumstances, mostly when routing. The initial variation of Cathay bonuses was actually way more balanced, now we have pretty much unfair situation.

    And i am NOT saying that it is just Cathay, there are more offenders, i am pointing out Cathay because it is the topic and this topic definitely has merits.
  • NeoYasNeoYas Registered Users Posts: 969
    You can use cheat mods to make the empire op or play on very easy, however I agree that the empire needs more content and some improvements.
  • Serkelet#1834Serkelet#1834 Member Registered Users Posts: 1,074
    I think the Empire Captain needs a demigryph mount option; that would solve all the problems he has. In mp he would cost a lot more on the demi, giving you the option to have either a cheap hero or an expensive one, and in both mp and campaign, the Empire would have a strong armour piercing hero option.

    Cathay needs toning down, because we cannot continue to be one up'ing things to oblivion. It does not work in the sense, that it we already have many things that break the game, so buffing approach only works with nerfs, not just one way street. Empire needs some revision and Cathay slight nerfs.

    Why does Cathay in particular need nerfs? There are many factions in the game that are performing even better. Why targetting Cathay? They are in an ok spot right now, nerfing them will sink them in the pits of darkness.
    Don't you want to play a fair game? Don't you want to say, look i won cause of my strategy not because my units perform way beter than they supposed to?

    Cathay harmony bonuses makes every single unit to perform way above their intended value. Tests have been done, CAthay is way over the top in effectiveness.

    Problem with harmony is that it is always in effect and unit loses bonuses in extremely rare circumstances, mostly when routing. The initial variation of Cathay bonuses was actually way more balanced, now we have pretty much unfair situation.

    And i am NOT saying that it is just Cathay, there are more offenders, i am pointing out Cathay because it is the topic and this topic definitely has merits.
    Fair enough. It just seemed weird to me how singled out Cathay is feeling in this thread, when there are worse offenders.
  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234
    edited September 19


    The OP was a backdoor "The empire needs buffs" post. Its apparently the Empire's turn in the rotation for CA done us wrong threads.

    They just picked Cathay as the counterpoint because they think they are similar armies, not because its particularly egregious.
  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 600



    The OP was a backdoor "The empire needs buffs" post. Its apparently the Empire's turn in the rotation for CA done us wrong threads.

    They just picked Cathay as the counterpoint because they think they are similar armies, not because its particularly egregious.

    Lol. Didn't know you could read my mind. Straight wrong pal.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327
    KIT#5531 said:

    I think the only Empire unit whose "problem" requires stat fixes is the Greatsword. They aren't useful in MP, they aren't useful in Single player. They just underperform, period.

    But most of the rest of the stuff is not a stats problem. Luminarks and Volleyguns would be fine if LOS in this game wasn't so wonky in places. Mortars are fine when the AI isn't doing cheerleader evolutions on the field.

    The Steam Tank's problem is how much ranged armor piercing is out there.

    The Greatswords' problems are compounded by an unduly difficult recruiting prerequisite.

    The Empire Captain's main virtue being cheapness is undervalued by the way the campaign works. There's nothing wrong with his stats for his cost. But saving money is rarely a thing in SP after a while.

    All the missing units except the Engineer hero are more of the same that we already have. Cool for flavor and all that jazz, but not going to alter the Empire's general performance. Especially if you fix Greatswords instead of just replace them with a better variant.

    Demigryph Knights also very bad they got a nerf in the past but now there are many similar units which are much better.
    so demis should beat skull crushers and crushers in straight fight and bear riders?

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • vormaerin#1910vormaerin#1910 Registered Users Posts: 234



    The OP was a backdoor "The empire needs buffs" post. Its apparently the Empire's turn in the rotation for CA done us wrong threads.

    They just picked Cathay as the counterpoint because they think they are similar armies, not because its particularly egregious.

    Lol. Didn't know you could read my mind. Straight wrong pal.
    Oh? You do think Cathay is a high priority nerf target?

    Or do you mean that 'yes, this was a buff the empire whine, but you didn't pick Cathay because it was similar to the empire?' You had some other reason?
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 2,553
    saweendra said:

    KIT#5531 said:

    I think the only Empire unit whose "problem" requires stat fixes is the Greatsword. They aren't useful in MP, they aren't useful in Single player. They just underperform, period.

    But most of the rest of the stuff is not a stats problem. Luminarks and Volleyguns would be fine if LOS in this game wasn't so wonky in places. Mortars are fine when the AI isn't doing cheerleader evolutions on the field.

    The Steam Tank's problem is how much ranged armor piercing is out there.

    The Greatswords' problems are compounded by an unduly difficult recruiting prerequisite.

    The Empire Captain's main virtue being cheapness is undervalued by the way the campaign works. There's nothing wrong with his stats for his cost. But saving money is rarely a thing in SP after a while.

    All the missing units except the Engineer hero are more of the same that we already have. Cool for flavor and all that jazz, but not going to alter the Empire's general performance. Especially if you fix Greatswords instead of just replace them with a better variant.

    Demigryph Knights also very bad they got a nerf in the past but now there are many similar units which are much better.
    so demis should beat skull crushers and crushers in straight fight and bear riders?
    They can be not-as-worse without being better. The gap in pretty much everything except speed is pretty large for the cost difference.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 19,327

    saweendra said:

    KIT#5531 said:

    I think the only Empire unit whose "problem" requires stat fixes is the Greatsword. They aren't useful in MP, they aren't useful in Single player. They just underperform, period.

    But most of the rest of the stuff is not a stats problem. Luminarks and Volleyguns would be fine if LOS in this game wasn't so wonky in places. Mortars are fine when the AI isn't doing cheerleader evolutions on the field.

    The Steam Tank's problem is how much ranged armor piercing is out there.

    The Greatswords' problems are compounded by an unduly difficult recruiting prerequisite.

    The Empire Captain's main virtue being cheapness is undervalued by the way the campaign works. There's nothing wrong with his stats for his cost. But saving money is rarely a thing in SP after a while.

    All the missing units except the Engineer hero are more of the same that we already have. Cool for flavor and all that jazz, but not going to alter the Empire's general performance. Especially if you fix Greatswords instead of just replace them with a better variant.

    Demigryph Knights also very bad they got a nerf in the past but now there are many similar units which are much better.
    so demis should beat skull crushers and crushers in straight fight and bear riders?
    They can be not-as-worse without being better. The gap in pretty much everything except speed is pretty large for the cost difference.
    Are we serious for second

    1. Demis are 1550
    2. They have acess to on demand healing
    3. Acess to way better support buffs and units yes patrich and sleds op but empire verisions of support units are cheaper and better in the role of pure dps to support





    This just a get gud scenario.
    Obviously sucks for the camapagin doomstacks only players but those guys should really stick to what other races or hope empire gets a boris like doom stack friendly character.


    Assuming empire eventually will not get carmine dragons, sons of unlirc as Monstours infantry, gryphon knights as flying cavalry to fully remove all of their weaknesses

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • SubjectEighteenSubjectEighteen Registered Users Posts: 600
    edited September 20



    The OP was a backdoor "The empire needs buffs" post. Its apparently the Empire's turn in the rotation for CA done us wrong threads.

    They just picked Cathay as the counterpoint because they think they are similar armies, not because its particularly egregious.

    Lol. Didn't know you could read my mind. Straight wrong pal.
    Oh? You do think Cathay is a high priority nerf target?

    Or do you mean that 'yes, this was a buff the empire whine, but you didn't pick Cathay because it was similar to the empire?' You had some other reason?
    Pointing out that the Empire is in need of a balance pass to be brought up to game 3 standards is not "a backdoor Empire needs buffs whine." By that logic, at attempt to address anything perceived to be unbalanced would be whining of some sort. I clearly stated that the Empire does not perform nearly as well as Cathay and the end of the post I said that the Empire needs some help. I was very upfront about my thoughts on where the Empire stands in relation to Cathay in terms of balance and utility.

    Inappropriate Comments removed.
    Post edited by dge1 on
  • united84#8186united84#8186 Registered Users Posts: 1,141
    Empire has more magic, more cav, more artillery & arguably better ranged selection (esp against large which Cathay lacks). The only thing Cathay is doing better is probably on the infantry side of things. I am not an expert on the nitty gritty of warhammer units and battles, that is my general impression after playing both Cathay and Empire.

    Not to mention, Empire's campaign mechanic is much more fun and viable (late game) than Cathay. Cathay's Wu Xing Compass is a simplified version of TWW2's rite system which is quite useless in late game and caravan's reward is also negligible once your economy is rolling.

    I could empathize with fans of Kislev and Bretonnia but people complaining about Empire is just strange more so when comparing with a brand new faction.
  • Pray#3234Pray#3234 Registered Users Posts: 1,606
    saweendra said:

    KIT#5531 said:

    I think the only Empire unit whose "problem" requires stat fixes is the Greatsword. They aren't useful in MP, they aren't useful in Single player. They just underperform, period.

    But most of the rest of the stuff is not a stats problem. Luminarks and Volleyguns would be fine if LOS in this game wasn't so wonky in places. Mortars are fine when the AI isn't doing cheerleader evolutions on the field.

    The Steam Tank's problem is how much ranged armor piercing is out there.

    The Greatswords' problems are compounded by an unduly difficult recruiting prerequisite.

    The Empire Captain's main virtue being cheapness is undervalued by the way the campaign works. There's nothing wrong with his stats for his cost. But saving money is rarely a thing in SP after a while.

    All the missing units except the Engineer hero are more of the same that we already have. Cool for flavor and all that jazz, but not going to alter the Empire's general performance. Especially if you fix Greatswords instead of just replace them with a better variant.

    Demigryph Knights also very bad they got a nerf in the past but now there are many similar units which are much better.
    so demis should beat skull crushers and crushers in straight fight and bear riders?
    In lore they break massive ork waggg with just 3 of them . if you count End time they kill Gorgons with out break a sweat Demis itself can kill Juggernaut , they are the arrow head in Endtime . yep they should beat bear rider in Charge . let's be real bear raider die while they're blinking . the issue in lore is they have very few number . like in Sigmar blood they have only 3 Royal aldolf Gryphite .
  • Pray#3234Pray#3234 Registered Users Posts: 1,606
    united84 said:

    Empire has more magic, more cav, more artillery & arguably better ranged selection (esp against large which Cathay lacks). The only thing Cathay is doing better is probably on the infantry side of things. I am not an expert on the nitty gritty of warhammer units and battles, that is my general impression after playing both Cathay and Empire.

    Not to mention, Empire's campaign mechanic is much more fun and viable (late game) than Cathay. Cathay's Wu Xing Compass is a simplified version of TWW2's rite system which is quite useless in late game and caravan's reward is also negligible once your economy is rolling.

    I could empathize with fans of Kislev and Bretonnia but people complaining about Empire is just strange more so when comparing with a brand new faction.

    Idk do you play Chatay till late game or not . Cathay can unlock Devastating flanker for Jade raider . even Bretonian don't get this skill . past mid game their Cav is just better .

    Cathay range weak vs large . what are you talking about ?

    i guess you skip Canon . Cathay cannon hit a little harder than Lumiask but *4 and faster reload speed . Sniper are one of best large target killer in the game .
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