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Von Carstein (VC rework ideas)

Elector Counts Mechanic tie-in
Every von Carstein Lord (Including Mannfred), if in possession of Drakenhof, has access to a modified variant of the imperial ‘Elector Counts’ mechanic. When not in possession of Drakenhof, the mechanic’s icon is locked, similar to that of Kislev’s ‘Amban’ mechanic before being in control of two full provinces.

There are two ways to go about implementing said mechanic (from my perspective). The first of which includes elector counts being confederated and granted the blood kiss, and the alternative is a more ‘offices’ based mechanic for counties under vampiric control.

~The first idea~
In the Vampire Counts variant of the mechanic, fealty will not be present, instead, in its place, every elector counts willingness to receive the blood kiss and swear loyalty to the one true emperor/empress will be measured through ‘allurance’ (basically reskinned fealty). Should an Elector Count reach ten ‘allurance’, a dilemma will be afforded for a confederation with the subject county, and their lord will be converted into a Von Carstein vampire lord. Both Karl Gelt will be excluded from said mechanic, similar to Vlad and Marienburg’s exemptions in the imperial version.

~The second idea~
Conversely, fealty and confederations are entirely scrapped, and only when in control of an entire county, the player may assign a lord character in place to rule over as the elector count of the said province. The benefits afforded by each elector count office will be adjusted to benefit the vampire counts roster accordingly.

~New Dilemma’s?~
New Dilemma’s could be added regarding Vampiric courtier’s influencing counties into conflict with one another/breaking down relations, or luring specific counties towards alignment with Sylvania, with the end goal of granting their count a blood kiss and confederating.

This would position the Von Carsteins within Sylvania as the clear opposition within the imperial sphere, just as they are told to be in the lore.

Additionally, Should a Von Carstein legendary lord succeed in taking altdorf, a dilemma could trigger for being crowned emperor. Either forcing the remaining human elector counts into war with you in exchange for certain benefits, threatening war or vassalization, or other.

Note: Confederation would obviously cost a Blood Kiss if achieved.

~Sylvanian Levy Units~
Reskinned mortal Sylvanian levy units should be available to the Sylvanian faction, They were present in lore and tabletop, and could possibly tie into the Elector Counts mechanic, being capped based on the number of provinces available or other. Basic units such as the Empire’s free company militia, shielded swordsmen, spearmen, halberds, and perhaps more could be available as faction-specific units, similar to Sartosa’s mortal militia units.

This could theoretically all be possible either in a DLC rework, I have alternative ideas for other bloodlines, as well as new unit ideas, but this thread is mainly around fleshing out and bring some flavour to Vlad/Isabella/Mannfred specifically as the Von Carstein Bloodline Lords now and forever.

What do you guys think of this idea?


Comments

  • #153592#153592 Registered Users Posts: 323

    I like very much your ideas :)

    Currently, only the Von Carstein bloodline is playable, but although they are really cool and interesting, they are not meant to be the only representative and powerful of their race.

    I really hope that we will soon have all the different vampiric bloodlines represented and playable with at least 1 legendary lord each in the game, and each with their own mechanics.

    So that would mean that the current mechanics of Vampire Counts and bloodlines as we know them would no longer make so much sense, and that the Von Carstein bloodline would also have to be reworked to give them a new mechanic. and more specific to their lore, and what could be better than being able to participate in this mechanic of Elector Counts, it would be perfect for them! :)

    Of course, it would have to be long and complicated for them, because humans are by default very reluctant to Undead, but Sylvania is a true province of the Empire in its own right, and as Vlad has shown, by behaving well inhabitants realized that he was no worse than certain tyrants, and that he could effectively protect them from the Undead who swarm in this region anyway...

    Von Carsteins should have access to a whole part of the Imperial roster, and not just a few units of Crossbowmen or Handgunners.

    I would also like the Legendary Hero Konrad von Carstein to make an appearance for them, via a quest reward for example.

    If ever we were to see Nagash one day arrive (a new faction that would mix the rosters of the 3 undead factions for example, a bit like Daniel does for the Daemons of Chaos (but better done please), he would have to set up a new mechanism related to the Mortarchs, and Vlad and Mannfred are part of the 9 Mortarchs of Nagash, so it should not be forgotten (it could for example allow Nagash to confederate the factions of the Mortarchs).

    Last point, I would like Vlad and Isabella to be a real originality compared to the rest, Mannfred is looking for Nagash's books, which is very good. For our "eternal lovers", I would like them to be truly inseparable, and instead of having one chosen, the other becoming a legendary hero (which is a good idea on paper , but which poses concerns, especially in Multi-player where we find ourselves being able to play the 3 von Carsteins at the same time, or the fact that as Legendary Heroes, they can leave the army, which means that they are not truly inseparable in the end, and the opponents factions lose the possibility of recovering the special trait for having defeated the second Legendary Lord who became a Legendary Hero... So here is what I suggest:
    For Vlad and Isabella, we could put a mechanism inspired by the Waaagh of the Greenskins, that is to say to have 2 linked armies with each other, the player could switch from one to the other to managed both, they would each have their own army and the Legendary Lords would bring their bonus only to their army, but the 2 would really be linked and therefore they would finally be really inseparable. In addition, they would have a super originality and strength compared to other Legendary Lords and would be feared at the level equal to their reputation because of it! They would be again 2 Legendary Lords playable but a duo, with the same start because they are just the same faction, so we would keep the possibility of having the 2 traits specials when defeated in battle, and that solves in the same time the problem in multiplayer.

    What do you think about it? :)

  • Kannabyss420#5579Kannabyss420#5579 Perth, AustraliaRegistered Users Posts: 125
    edited November 2022
    Nice write-up!

    First idea: If anything, it really should only be if you choose Vlad as your LL for this mechanic, because all the other LL's you mentioned don't really want to rule like how Vlad wants to rule. Isabella is pretty much completely bonkers and quite happily slaughters people whimsically. Mannfred is more about acquiring power because he's a megalomaniac, and whilst he does want to be in charge, I don't think he cares much for the cattle at all. The idea that Vlad could potentially become an elector count, or the emperor, definitely sits well with me. As it does to many, many others, I'm sure.

    Second idea: Sort of ties into the first one, and I would only really like to see it implemented if you were playing Vlad as your LL.

    The idea of Lahmian vampires having a sort of seduce mechanic or being able to make "swains" out of enemy heros's has been thrown around a bit and would be dope AF. With Belakor's mechanic being able to turn certain faction Lords into daemons could be applied here obviously.

    New Dilemmas: Sounds cool, but only for Vlad. I could see Mannfred obsessing over Altdorf so he can get access to the colleges of Magic, and Isabella wanting to wreck the entire city and drown it in blood because the sight of it offends her.

    Levy units: I think what we have atm is fine, but I certainly wouldn't be opposed to having the unit cap increase as more and more provinces fall under your control, as Vlad of course. I feel we don't really need any Empire melee infantry because it's kind of unnecessary, as having your crossbows and handguns behind your wall of zombies is powerful enough. In Wh2 I was using a mod which gave you access to pistoleers and empire captains under the guise of them being bandits, and even gave you access to great cannons and normal war wagons. Wasn't too OP at all, as you were limited by your caps.

    You can still achieve all of this (in a way) with the ally/outpost system now, just gotta rush those Lahmian bloodkisses ASAP. In my recent campaign Cathay and Kislev loved me pretty quickly doing this, but getting KF or Balthy on your side early is a bit of a challenge still, as you kind of have to leave Sylvania undefended and help them fight off their enemies.


    If you really feel passionate about your ideas, post them in the feedback and suggestions section and see if you get any more bites. May your graveyards always be full! 😊



    Honour? Death? I will bring to you the honour of Death so you may understand such concepts more clearly!
  • CountSpookula#8662CountSpookula#8662 Registered Users Posts: 67
    edited November 2022
    #153592 said:


    I like very much your ideas :)

    Currently, only the Von Carstein bloodline is playable, but although they are really cool and interesting, they are not meant to be the only representative and powerful of their race.

    I really hope that we will soon have all the different vampiric bloodlines represented and playable with at least 1 legendary lord each in the game, and each with their own mechanics.

    So that would mean that the current mechanics of Vampire Counts and bloodlines as we know them would no longer make so much sense, and that the Von Carstein bloodline would also have to be reworked to give them a new mechanic. and more specific to their lore, and what could be better than being able to participate in this mechanic of Elector Counts, it would be perfect for them! :)

    Of course, it would have to be long and complicated for them, because humans are by default very reluctant to Undead, but Sylvania is a true province of the Empire in its own right, and as Vlad has shown, by behaving well inhabitants realized that he was no worse than certain tyrants, and that he could effectively protect them from the Undead who swarm in this region anyway...

    Von Carsteins should have access to a whole part of the Imperial roster, and not just a few units of Crossbowmen or Handgunners.

    I would also like the Legendary Hero Konrad von Carstein to make an appearance for them, via a quest reward for example.

    If ever we were to see Nagash one day arrive (a new faction that would mix the rosters of the 3 undead factions for example, a bit like Daniel does for the Daemons of Chaos (but better done please), he would have to set up a new mechanism related to the Mortarchs, and Vlad and Mannfred are part of the 9 Mortarchs of Nagash, so it should not be forgotten (it could for example allow Nagash to confederate the factions of the Mortarchs).

    Last point, I would like Vlad and Isabella to be a real originality compared to the rest, Mannfred is looking for Nagash's books, which is very good. For our "eternal lovers", I would like them to be truly inseparable, and instead of having one chosen, the other becoming a legendary hero (which is a good idea on paper , but which poses concerns, especially in Multi-player where we find ourselves being able to play the 3 von Carsteins at the same time, or the fact that as Legendary Heroes, they can leave the army, which means that they are not truly inseparable in the end, and the opponents factions lose the possibility of recovering the special trait for having defeated the second Legendary Lord who became a Legendary Hero... So here is what I suggest:
    For Vlad and Isabella, we could put a mechanism inspired by the Waaagh of the Greenskins, that is to say to have 2 linked armies with each other, the player could switch from one to the other to managed both, they would each have their own army and the Legendary Lords would bring their bonus only to their army, but the 2 would really be linked and therefore they would finally be really inseparable. In addition, they would have a super originality and strength compared to other Legendary Lords and would be feared at the level equal to their reputation because of it! They would be again 2 Legendary Lords playable but a duo, with the same start because they are just the same faction, so we would keep the possibility of having the 2 traits specials when defeated in battle, and that solves in the same time the problem in multiplayer.

    What do you think about it? :)

    I'm concerned only on how that mechanic would be fleshed out, and what the starting armies would look like as well as reinforcement time... otherwise however, I really like this idea...

    As for Konrad as a LH, yes I have a thread for that too lol, I would like to see Drakenhof templars as a Blood Knights RoR as well...
  • capybarasiesta89#4722capybarasiesta89#4722 Senior Member Bath, UKRegistered Users Posts: 5,463
    What about loyalty mechanic for generic Vamps? Since they're not to be trusted at all, how many times they tried to usurp and work against each other. Giving them dillemas like DE, Skavens with new items and such.
    h1feizw8yzk6.jpg
  • Ben1990#8909Ben1990#8909 Registered Users Posts: 3,055
    I like the 1st idea + the levies. In case of the latter this should be lore-wise a thing since that's how the von Carstein operated. This would turn them into something akin to monogods only instead of daemons and mortals we have undead and living forces.
    Only in this case they should be tied to the von Carstein vampire lords (Vlad and Isabella included) instead of being hardcapped to provinces.
    Not to mention that for this to work the Bloodline mechanic should be reworked to make bloodline lords recruitable normally (as well as replacing the generic Strigoi and Vampire Lords with bloodline Ghoul Kings and von Carstein Lords)...but this would be a subject for its own thread.
  • Beytran70#7597Beytran70#7597 Registered Users Posts: 429
    Honestly I wonder how it would work if we get more specific-bloodline factions in the future. In my opinion it might be best to actually just scrap the bloodlines mechanic as it is currently implemented except for perhaps a few factions and instead the specific-bloodline factions have access to generic vampires and their own bloodline but with stronger bonuses to help make them distinct.

    For instance if you are playing Kemmler or whatever you can still get a few Sylvanian lords and as a result a handful of Sylvanian Levy units, but if you are playing as Vlad or Isabella they get access to a proper set of Empire units as Sylvanian levies.

    If they eventually add the likes of Neferata she could be limited in the same way but have more pronounced bonuses and mechanics.
  • Ben1990#8909Ben1990#8909 Registered Users Posts: 3,055
    edited November 2022

    Honestly I wonder how it would work if we get more specific-bloodline factions in the future. In my opinion it might be best to actually just scrap the bloodlines mechanic as it is currently implemented except for perhaps a few factions and instead the specific-bloodline factions have access to generic vampires and their own bloodline but with stronger bonuses to help make them distinct.

    For instance if you are playing Kemmler or whatever you can still get a few Sylvanian lords and as a result a handful of Sylvanian Levy units, but if you are playing as Vlad or Isabella they get access to a proper set of Empire units as Sylvanian levies.

    If they eventually add the likes of Neferata she could be limited in the same way but have more pronounced bonuses and mechanics.

    I see it like that for starters the Bloodline Mechanic must be changed first before one can do some modifications to the faction itself in order to accommodate other bloodlines along with a rework to mechanics, addition of new ones and such.
    First the Bloodline Lords need to be made recruitable normally instead of unlocking them via the mechanic and the Bloodline factions should be either limited to specific hero/lords or have access to all of them but with various additional costs while the proper ones get price cuts. Because it would be absolutely bizarre if you play as Blood Dragons and instead of the red-armored vampire knights you see von Carstein vampires among them only.

    Those and a ton of units to make them stand out from each other. These and that in case of Kemmler and Ghorst they would put more emphasis on Necromancers and Necromancer Lords (yet Kemmelr and Ghorst get more bonuses to them for obvious reasons). Actually everyone would put more emphasis on these two since vampire lords and heroes shouldn't be so ready available and instead should be awakened in the same vein as Kislev's Ice Court Mechanic (and the eventual College of Magic for the Empire on which the latter mechanic is based on). The more blood kisses you pour into awakening a vampire lord or hero, the more powerful he/she will become. That would be one of many new ways to use blood kisses. On the other hand there should be more ways to get those. Not to mention the ability to turn Necromancer Lords into Liches which would be more tankier spellcasters with superior magic capabilities (could do the same with Kemmler and Ghorst, but instead of turning undead both get special traits).

    Vampire Counts - Mannlet, Kemmler and Ghorst. These would be your general factions with more emphasis on specific stuff depending on the lords. They have the whole roster + some extra stuff from each bloodline.

    von Carstein - Vlad and Isabella. Should be a dark version of The Empire and the undead version of the Monogod Daemon factions. Both the entire VC roster + a selected number of Empire troops. All the Empire infantry troops (except Flagellants and maybe Huntsmen...dunno) + Sylvanian Knights, Mortars and Cannons (the last one being particularly rare). All the Empire units are hardcapped and available via von Carstein Vampire Lords (as well as Vlad and Isabella). The von Carstein Vampire Heroes also provide harcap increases but only for the most basic troops. And von Carstein Vampire Lords provide hardcap increases for all Empire units under the von Carstein albeit all being really small. Though upgrading Castle Drakenhof also slightly increases the amount of Empire units the von Carstein can recruit. This hardcap is enforced so not to make the faction be turned into whole human armies commanded by Vampires. As a bonus, add in three variants of von Carstein Vampire troops. Two foot ones (sword + shield and halberd) and the other one being a cavalry unit that would be between Black Knights and Blood Knights.

    Blood Dragons - Abhorash/Wallach Harkon (dunno who should be, but I prefer the former since it's supposed to be more of a bloodline progenitor themed DLC). They are all about elite forces. So they get Blood Knights on foot in four variants (sword + shield, dual swords, great weapons and halberds), two additional Grave Guard types (spear + shield and halberds), Blood Knights and Black Knights on Hellsteeds, and finally Blood Knights on Abyssal Terrors (also Abyssal Terrors become Griffon-equivalents for all Vampire Lords).

    Lahmia - Neferata obviously. The entire VC roster, buffed up Coven Thrones, a selection of Tomb King units (logical since they still are going heavily into TK stuff) and certain vampire and living units (like Lahmian Handmaidens and Enthralled Mortals).

    Strigoi - Ushoran. Duh. With more emphasis on ghoulish units. More Crypt Ghoul and Horror variants , more Vargheist and Vargulf variants. Maybe even another Terrogheist variant or even lesser Strigoi Vampires as a powerfuls skirmisher unit. Those and Strigany troops that are all skirmishers and even give the Strigoi horse archers and such.

    Necrarchs - W'Soran (either possessing Melkhior or retconning Zacharias into being possessed by W'Soran). Maximum undead variants. Having more undead types than the other bloodlines. With stuff like more zombie and skeleton variants, monsters like the Bone Hydra (should be also available for Vampire Coast since it originates from the Galleon's Graveyard), Zombie Giants (actually a wonder why they were not a thing lore and tabletop-wise considering the existence of other large monsters in the VC roster). Also unit versions of Patchwork men that work as very elite not!Zombies with additional equipment to make them even more dangerous on the battlefield.
    Edit: Also more emphasis on magic and raising the dead.

    Unique Mechanics-wise:
    Vlad and Isabella: The Electorial machinations retooled presented in this thread are fine. Very fine and fitting thematically.

    Abhorash/Wallach: A challenge-seeking mechanic similar to Norscan Monster hunts but divided into two things. Regular champion/monster hunting and legendary champion/monster hunting. However the difficulties of those increase depending on the level of your vampire lord and will force you to think very tactically and brutally to overcome those. The rewards from those however are worth it. And if you defeat a dragon during those hunts then the vampire lord in question gets a unique trait from it (barring Abhorash who instead has a trait similar to Settra and which causes him to get flat-out bonuses to stats after a number of hunts).

    Neferata: A mix between the Court Intrigue/Electorial Machinations, Sniktch's dealing and Cao-Cao's schemes to make her the very manipulative spymaster she is in lore.

    Ushoran: A Strygos Empire rebuilding/expansion mechanic. Rebuild the Strygos Empire from scratch, expand its borders, get awesome bonuses (both faction-wide, army-wide and limited to certain settlements and characters of your choice) as you unlock new tiers in the rebuilding mechanic and additional stuff while annexing more settlements into the empire to expand it.

    W'Soran/Melkhior/Zacharias (Possessed): A undead creation mechanic where you collect body parts depending on the enemy army and its unit composition (this extends to settlements after sacking/razing them). Similar to Throt's mechanic, but instead of enhancing existing units you instead create completely new ones with different additional sets of traits and different stats.
    A 2nd mechanic that would also work well would be a dark arcana mechanic where you unlock additional bound spells for characters and units, improve their abilities revolving around the winds of magic and finally create unique items and ancillaries that are unique only to you.
    Also unlike all the other factions, you start out with the ability to transform Necromancer Lords into Liches from the get-go.

    General Mechanics:
    Awakening Vampire Lords/Heroes: Like mentioned before, this would be the new way to recruit vampires. Similar to the Ice Court mechanic, you go and enact a ritual to awaken a powerful vampire lord or hero (they should be as powerful as they are uncommon and it should show). The ritual costs blood kisses. The more of them you invest into awakening them, the more traits they will get (max three) from which to choose after each threshold is reached.

    Turning Generic Lords and Heroes: Can be done after defeating human lords and heroes in battle. If you have the blood kisses to spare, you can embrace them and turn them to your side. They also get unique traits depending on the faction they originated from.

    Vampire Coves: These should be like Chaos Cults that will give you, depending on how you tool them out, bonuses to stuff like research, income, increasing the chances of raisable units to spawn in the raise dead pool (including the hardcap), and a small chance to get a Blood Kiss every turn. Vampire Coves would appear either via hero actions or get a chance of getting randomly generated in a province not under your control but with high enough Vampiric Corruption.

    Reworked Blood Kisses: I say that these are actually nice to use, but considering what the player would get with the rework, there should be more sources of getting Blood Kisses. On top of the ones we have, there should be events that give you a set number of those and via Vampire Coves if you build the proper structure. Don't remember if Blood Kisses are also rewards for quests but if they aren't then they should be (didn't play Vampire Counts in a long time).

    Reworked Bloodlines mechanic: Since the Vampire Lords would be reworked to be recruitable and not hard-capped to 3 only, the Bloodlines mechanic should be retooled to have different uses. Instead of just three unlocks per bloodline, you could have three tiers per three unlocks. It would still require the same amount of Blood Kisses you need to invest like with the current mechanic, but each tier is divided into three unlockables that range from small empire-wide bonuses, the ability to buy standards with money (first ones free after unlocking), to new units, RoRs, map abilities during battles (much needed since even with the inclusion of limited missile units, the VCs would still need those) to new mechanics (like transforming Necromancer Lords into Liches). Also after unlocking at least two unlockables you can go to the next tier, but the player should still go and unlock all three unlockables for a tier for that complete unlock bonus. After maxing out a bloodline tree you get to unlock a vampire lord of that bloodline. Unlike the Bloodline Lords you can now recruit normally or the ones you can embrace after battle, each comes with three seriosuly cranked up traits that offer factionwide bonuses and to themselves.

    That's how I feel and some may not agree with this, but it's the best I could think about.
  • Beytran70#7597Beytran70#7597 Registered Users Posts: 429

    Honestly I wonder how it would work if we get more specific-bloodline factions in the future. In my opinion it might be best to actually just scrap the bloodlines mechanic as it is currently implemented except for perhaps a few factions and instead the specific-bloodline factions have access to generic vampires and their own bloodline but with stronger bonuses to help make them distinct.

    For instance if you are playing Kemmler or whatever you can still get a few Sylvanian lords and as a result a handful of Sylvanian Levy units, but if you are playing as Vlad or Isabella they get access to a proper set of Empire units as Sylvanian levies.

    If they eventually add the likes of Neferata she could be limited in the same way but have more pronounced bonuses and mechanics.

    I see it like that for starters the Bloodline Mechanic must be changed first before one can do some modifications to the faction itself in order to accommodate other bloodlines along with a rework to mechanics, addition of new ones and such.
    First the Bloodline Lords need to be made recruitable normally instead of unlocking them via the mechanic and the Bloodline factions should be either limited to specific hero/lords or have access to all of them but with various additional costs while the proper ones get price cuts. Because it would be absolutely bizarre if you play as Blood Dragons and instead of the red-armored vampire knights you see von Carstein vampires among them only.

    Those and a ton of units to make them stand out from each other. These and that in case of Kemmler and Ghorst they would put more emphasis on Necromancers and Necromancer Lords (yet Kemmelr and Ghorst get more bonuses to them for obvious reasons). Actually everyone would put more emphasis on these two since vampire lords and heroes shouldn't be so ready available and instead should be awakened in the same vein as Kislev's Ice Court Mechanic (and the eventual College of Magic for the Empire on which the latter mechanic is based on). The more blood kisses you pour into awakening a vampire lord or hero, the more powerful he/she will become. That would be one of many new ways to use blood kisses. On the other hand there should be more ways to get those. Not to mention the ability to turn Necromancer Lords into Liches which would be more tankier spellcasters with superior magic capabilities (could do the same with Kemmler and Ghorst, but instead of turning undead both get special traits).

    Vampire Counts - Mannlet, Kemmler and Ghorst. These would be your general factions with more emphasis on specific stuff depending on the lords. They have the whole roster + some extra stuff from each bloodline.

    von Carstein - Vlad and Isabella. Should be a dark version of The Empire and the undead version of the Monogod Daemon factions. Both the entire VC roster + a selected number of Empire troops. All the Empire infantry troops (except Flagellants and maybe Huntsmen...dunno) + Sylvanian Knights, Mortars and Cannons (the last one being particularly rare). All the Empire units are hardcapped and available via von Carstein Vampire Lords (as well as Vlad and Isabella). The von Carstein Vampire Heroes also provide harcap increases but only for the most basic troops. And von Carstein Vampire Lords provide hardcap increases for all Empire units under the von Carstein albeit all being really small. Though upgrading Castle Drakenhof also slightly increases the amount of Empire units the von Carstein can recruit. This hardcap is enforced so not to make the faction be turned into whole human armies commanded by Vampires. As a bonus, add in three variants of von Carstein Vampire troops. Two foot ones (sword + shield and halberd) and the other one being a cavalry unit that would be between Black Knights and Blood Knights.

    Blood Dragons - Abhorash/Wallach Harkon (dunno who should be, but I prefer the former since it's supposed to be more of a bloodline progenitor themed DLC). They are all about elite forces. So they get Blood Knights on foot in four variants (sword + shield, dual swords, great weapons and halberds), two additional Grave Guard types (spear + shield and halberds), Blood Knights and Black Knights on Hellsteeds, and finally Blood Knights on Abyssal Terrors (also Abyssal Terrors become Griffon-equivalents for all Vampire Lords).

    Lahmia - Neferata obviously. The entire VC roster, buffed up Coven Thrones, a selection of Tomb King units (logical since they still are going heavily into TK stuff) and certain vampire and living units (like Lahmian Handmaidens and Enthralled Mortals).

    Strigoi - Ushoran. Duh. With more emphasis on ghoulish units. More Crypt Ghoul and Horror variants , more Vargheist and Vargulf variants. Maybe even another Terrogheist variant or even lesser Strigoi Vampires as a powerfuls skirmisher unit. Those and Strigany troops that are all skirmishers and even give the Strigoi horse archers and such.

    Necrarchs - W'Soran (either possessing Melkhior or retconning Zacharias into being possessed by W'Soran). Maximum undead variants. Having more undead types than the other bloodlines. With stuff like more zombie and skeleton variants, monsters like the Bone Hydra (should be also available for Vampire Coast since it originates from the Galleon's Graveyard), Zombie Giants (actually a wonder why they were not a thing lore and tabletop-wise considering the existence of other large monsters in the VC roster). Also unit versions of Patchwork men that work as very elite not!Zombies with additional equipment to make them even more dangerous on the battlefield.
    Edit: Also more emphasis on magic and raising the dead.

    Unique Mechanics-wise:
    Vlad and Isabella: The Electorial machinations retooled presented in this thread are fine. Very fine and fitting thematically.

    Abhorash/Wallach: A challenge-seeking mechanic similar to Norscan Monster hunts but divided into two things. Regular champion/monster hunting and legendary champion/monster hunting. However the difficulties of those increase depending on the level of your vampire lord and will force you to think very tactically and brutally to overcome those. The rewards from those however are worth it. And if you defeat a dragon during those hunts then the vampire lord in question gets a unique trait from it (barring Abhorash who instead has a trait similar to Settra and which causes him to get flat-out bonuses to stats after a number of hunts).

    Neferata: A mix between the Court Intrigue/Electorial Machinations, Sniktch's dealing and Cao-Cao's schemes to make her the very manipulative spymaster she is in lore.

    Ushoran: A Strygos Empire rebuilding/expansion mechanic. Rebuild the Strygos Empire from scratch, expand its borders, get awesome bonuses (both faction-wide, army-wide and limited to certain settlements and characters of your choice) as you unlock new tiers in the rebuilding mechanic and additional stuff while annexing more settlements into the empire to expand it.

    W'Soran/Melkhior/Zacharias (Possessed): A undead creation mechanic where you collect body parts depending on the enemy army and its unit composition (this extends to settlements after sacking/razing them). Similar to Throt's mechanic, but instead of enhancing existing units you instead create completely new ones with different additional sets of traits and different stats.
    A 2nd mechanic that would also work well would be a dark arcana mechanic where you unlock additional bound spells for characters and units, improve their abilities revolving around the winds of magic and finally create unique items and ancillaries that are unique only to you.
    Also unlike all the other factions, you start out with the ability to transform Necromancer Lords into Liches from the get-go.

    General Mechanics:
    Awakening Vampire Lords/Heroes: Like mentioned before, this would be the new way to recruit vampires. Similar to the Ice Court mechanic, you go and enact a ritual to awaken a powerful vampire lord or hero (they should be as powerful as they are uncommon and it should show). The ritual costs blood kisses. The more of them you invest into awakening them, the more traits they will get (max three) from which to choose after each threshold is reached.

    Turning Generic Lords and Heroes: Can be done after defeating human lords and heroes in battle. If you have the blood kisses to spare, you can embrace them and turn them to your side. They also get unique traits depending on the faction they originated from.

    Vampire Coves: These should be like Chaos Cults that will give you, depending on how you tool them out, bonuses to stuff like research, income, increasing the chances of raisable units to spawn in the raise dead pool (including the hardcap), and a small chance to get a Blood Kiss every turn. Vampire Coves would appear either via hero actions or get a chance of getting randomly generated in a province not under your control but with high enough Vampiric Corruption.

    Reworked Blood Kisses: I say that these are actually nice to use, but considering what the player would get with the rework, there should be more sources of getting Blood Kisses. On top of the ones we have, there should be events that give you a set number of those and via Vampire Coves if you build the proper structure. Don't remember if Blood Kisses are also rewards for quests but if they aren't then they should be (didn't play Vampire Counts in a long time).

    Reworked Bloodlines mechanic: Since the Vampire Lords would be reworked to be recruitable and not hard-capped to 3 only, the Bloodlines mechanic should be retooled to have different uses. Instead of just three unlocks per bloodline, you could have three tiers per three unlocks. It would still require the same amount of Blood Kisses you need to invest like with the current mechanic, but each tier is divided into three unlockables that range from small empire-wide bonuses, the ability to buy standards with money (first ones free after unlocking), to new units, RoRs, map abilities during battles (much needed since even with the inclusion of limited missile units, the VCs would still need those) to new mechanics (like transforming Necromancer Lords into Liches). Also after unlocking at least two unlockables you can go to the next tier, but the player should still go and unlock all three unlockables for a tier for that complete unlock bonus. After maxing out a bloodline tree you get to unlock a vampire lord of that bloodline. Unlike the Bloodline Lords you can now recruit normally or the ones you can embrace after battle, each comes with three seriosuly cranked up traits that offer factionwide bonuses and to themselves.

    That's how I feel and some may not agree with this, but it's the best I could think about.
    This is pretty much what I had in mind on all counts but was too lazy to write it all up lol
  • Neodeinos#5871Neodeinos#5871 Registered Users Posts: 16,133
    I love those ideas, I think the Elector Count mechanic should be unique to Vlad though, since he was named Elector Count during the dreaded End Times.
  • peabodyestate#9505peabodyestate#9505 Registered Users Posts: 1,595
    Make Nagash undead (as on tabletop) and UTTERLY revamp EVERYTHING. Because NAGASH IS EVERYTHINGGGGG TO MEEEE
  • yodayoda#8389yodayoda#8389 Registered Users Posts: 92
    Strigoi should have a line that buffs ghouls and horrors, vargheists, varghulf, and terrorgheist. Or maybe I'm thinking that a Strigoi Legendary Lord should have that, vs the generics. Or, perhaps a vampire from the Strigoi bloodline.
  • Ben1990#8909Ben1990#8909 Registered Users Posts: 3,055
    edited November 2022

    Honestly I wonder how it would work if we get more specific-bloodline factions in the future. In my opinion it might be best to actually just scrap the bloodlines mechanic as it is currently implemented except for perhaps a few factions and instead the specific-bloodline factions have access to generic vampires and their own bloodline but with stronger bonuses to help make them distinct.

    For instance if you are playing Kemmler or whatever you can still get a few Sylvanian lords and as a result a handful of Sylvanian Levy units, but if you are playing as Vlad or Isabella they get access to a proper set of Empire units as Sylvanian levies.

    If they eventually add the likes of Neferata she could be limited in the same way but have more pronounced bonuses and mechanics.

    I see it like that for starters the Bloodline Mechanic must be changed first before one can do some modifications to the faction itself in order to accommodate other bloodlines along with a rework to mechanics, addition of new ones and such.
    First the Bloodline Lords need to be made recruitable normally instead of unlocking them via the mechanic and the Bloodline factions should be either limited to specific hero/lords or have access to all of them but with various additional costs while the proper ones get price cuts. Because it would be absolutely bizarre if you play as Blood Dragons and instead of the red-armored vampire knights you see von Carstein vampires among them only.

    Those and a ton of units to make them stand out from each other. These and that in case of Kemmler and Ghorst they would put more emphasis on Necromancers and Necromancer Lords (yet Kemmelr and Ghorst get more bonuses to them for obvious reasons). Actually everyone would put more emphasis on these two since vampire lords and heroes shouldn't be so ready available and instead should be awakened in the same vein as Kislev's Ice Court Mechanic (and the eventual College of Magic for the Empire on which the latter mechanic is based on). The more blood kisses you pour into awakening a vampire lord or hero, the more powerful he/she will become. That would be one of many new ways to use blood kisses. On the other hand there should be more ways to get those. Not to mention the ability to turn Necromancer Lords into Liches which would be more tankier spellcasters with superior magic capabilities (could do the same with Kemmler and Ghorst, but instead of turning undead both get special traits).

    Vampire Counts - Mannlet, Kemmler and Ghorst. These would be your general factions with more emphasis on specific stuff depending on the lords. They have the whole roster + some extra stuff from each bloodline.

    von Carstein - Vlad and Isabella. Should be a dark version of The Empire and the undead version of the Monogod Daemon factions. Both the entire VC roster + a selected number of Empire troops. All the Empire infantry troops (except Flagellants and maybe Huntsmen...dunno) + Sylvanian Knights, Mortars and Cannons (the last one being particularly rare). All the Empire units are hardcapped and available via von Carstein Vampire Lords (as well as Vlad and Isabella). The von Carstein Vampire Heroes also provide harcap increases but only for the most basic troops. And von Carstein Vampire Lords provide hardcap increases for all Empire units under the von Carstein albeit all being really small. Though upgrading Castle Drakenhof also slightly increases the amount of Empire units the von Carstein can recruit. This hardcap is enforced so not to make the faction be turned into whole human armies commanded by Vampires. As a bonus, add in three variants of von Carstein Vampire troops. Two foot ones (sword + shield and halberd) and the other one being a cavalry unit that would be between Black Knights and Blood Knights.

    Blood Dragons - Abhorash/Wallach Harkon (dunno who should be, but I prefer the former since it's supposed to be more of a bloodline progenitor themed DLC). They are all about elite forces. So they get Blood Knights on foot in four variants (sword + shield, dual swords, great weapons and halberds), two additional Grave Guard types (spear + shield and halberds), Blood Knights and Black Knights on Hellsteeds, and finally Blood Knights on Abyssal Terrors (also Abyssal Terrors become Griffon-equivalents for all Vampire Lords).

    Lahmia - Neferata obviously. The entire VC roster, buffed up Coven Thrones, a selection of Tomb King units (logical since they still are going heavily into TK stuff) and certain vampire and living units (like Lahmian Handmaidens and Enthralled Mortals).

    Strigoi - Ushoran. Duh. With more emphasis on ghoulish units. More Crypt Ghoul and Horror variants , more Vargheist and Vargulf variants. Maybe even another Terrogheist variant or even lesser Strigoi Vampires as a powerfuls skirmisher unit. Those and Strigany troops that are all skirmishers and even give the Strigoi horse archers and such.

    Necrarchs - W'Soran (either possessing Melkhior or retconning Zacharias into being possessed by W'Soran). Maximum undead variants. Having more undead types than the other bloodlines. With stuff like more zombie and skeleton variants, monsters like the Bone Hydra (should be also available for Vampire Coast since it originates from the Galleon's Graveyard), Zombie Giants (actually a wonder why they were not a thing lore and tabletop-wise considering the existence of other large monsters in the VC roster). Also unit versions of Patchwork men that work as very elite not!Zombies with additional equipment to make them even more dangerous on the battlefield.
    Edit: Also more emphasis on magic and raising the dead.

    Unique Mechanics-wise:
    Vlad and Isabella: The Electorial machinations retooled presented in this thread are fine. Very fine and fitting thematically.

    Abhorash/Wallach: A challenge-seeking mechanic similar to Norscan Monster hunts but divided into two things. Regular champion/monster hunting and legendary champion/monster hunting. However the difficulties of those increase depending on the level of your vampire lord and will force you to think very tactically and brutally to overcome those. The rewards from those however are worth it. And if you defeat a dragon during those hunts then the vampire lord in question gets a unique trait from it (barring Abhorash who instead has a trait similar to Settra and which causes him to get flat-out bonuses to stats after a number of hunts).

    Neferata: A mix between the Court Intrigue/Electorial Machinations, Sniktch's dealing and Cao-Cao's schemes to make her the very manipulative spymaster she is in lore.

    Ushoran: A Strygos Empire rebuilding/expansion mechanic. Rebuild the Strygos Empire from scratch, expand its borders, get awesome bonuses (both faction-wide, army-wide and limited to certain settlements and characters of your choice) as you unlock new tiers in the rebuilding mechanic and additional stuff while annexing more settlements into the empire to expand it.

    W'Soran/Melkhior/Zacharias (Possessed): A undead creation mechanic where you collect body parts depending on the enemy army and its unit composition (this extends to settlements after sacking/razing them). Similar to Throt's mechanic, but instead of enhancing existing units you instead create completely new ones with different additional sets of traits and different stats.
    A 2nd mechanic that would also work well would be a dark arcana mechanic where you unlock additional bound spells for characters and units, improve their abilities revolving around the winds of magic and finally create unique items and ancillaries that are unique only to you.
    Also unlike all the other factions, you start out with the ability to transform Necromancer Lords into Liches from the get-go.

    General Mechanics:
    Awakening Vampire Lords/Heroes: Like mentioned before, this would be the new way to recruit vampires. Similar to the Ice Court mechanic, you go and enact a ritual to awaken a powerful vampire lord or hero (they should be as powerful as they are uncommon and it should show). The ritual costs blood kisses. The more of them you invest into awakening them, the more traits they will get (max three) from which to choose after each threshold is reached.

    Turning Generic Lords and Heroes: Can be done after defeating human lords and heroes in battle. If you have the blood kisses to spare, you can embrace them and turn them to your side. They also get unique traits depending on the faction they originated from.

    Vampire Coves: These should be like Chaos Cults that will give you, depending on how you tool them out, bonuses to stuff like research, income, increasing the chances of raisable units to spawn in the raise dead pool (including the hardcap), and a small chance to get a Blood Kiss every turn. Vampire Coves would appear either via hero actions or get a chance of getting randomly generated in a province not under your control but with high enough Vampiric Corruption.

    Reworked Blood Kisses: I say that these are actually nice to use, but considering what the player would get with the rework, there should be more sources of getting Blood Kisses. On top of the ones we have, there should be events that give you a set number of those and via Vampire Coves if you build the proper structure. Don't remember if Blood Kisses are also rewards for quests but if they aren't then they should be (didn't play Vampire Counts in a long time).

    Reworked Bloodlines mechanic: Since the Vampire Lords would be reworked to be recruitable and not hard-capped to 3 only, the Bloodlines mechanic should be retooled to have different uses. Instead of just three unlocks per bloodline, you could have three tiers per three unlocks. It would still require the same amount of Blood Kisses you need to invest like with the current mechanic, but each tier is divided into three unlockables that range from small empire-wide bonuses, the ability to buy standards with money (first ones free after unlocking), to new units, RoRs, map abilities during battles (much needed since even with the inclusion of limited missile units, the VCs would still need those) to new mechanics (like transforming Necromancer Lords into Liches). Also after unlocking at least two unlockables you can go to the next tier, but the player should still go and unlock all three unlockables for a tier for that complete unlock bonus. After maxing out a bloodline tree you get to unlock a vampire lord of that bloodline. Unlike the Bloodline Lords you can now recruit normally or the ones you can embrace after battle, each comes with three seriosuly cranked up traits that offer factionwide bonuses and to themselves.

    That's how I feel and some may not agree with this, but it's the best I could think about.
    This is pretty much what I had in mind on all counts but was too lazy to write it all up lol
    Would also add in the Patchwork Men as hero units and the Barrow Kings made into generic lord versions of Wight Kings.

    Edit: Almost forgot. The Cairn Wraith. It also needs to be added.
    Post edited by Ben1990#8909 on
  • #93137#93137 Registered Users Posts: 10
    I was always a fan of the idea of the VC being part of the Elector Counts.
    They are technically part of the Empire, it would be cool to take over the humans and have them do your bidding as they were meant to, when not being fed upon.
  • Captain_Rex#1635Captain_Rex#1635 Hamburg, Germany Registered Users Posts: 38,156
    I absolutely love your ideas! Yes please!
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