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Empire Slows Down Dramatically When Walls are Breached

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  • IscaranIscaran Tech-Hero. Posts: 4,229Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Thx Sasu...and yes I know ETW uses D3D. I only posted my complete set of driver settings. Of course changing this setting should not have any impact on ETW.

    EDIT: You can use triple buffering without riva tuner via CCC as well. At least on AMD cards, but I assume as well on nVidia cards, not sure though.
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  • SasuSasu Moderator FinlandPosts: 8,858Registered Users, Moderators
    edited November 2010
    Naturally, I'm just teaching myself on the side as this is getting to be quite a thriller :)

    Thanks, I think I'll try CCC... or equivalent...
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Okay, I ran your replay. The bug was just getting around to be aggravating when you rushed your troops in. Imagine that there are lots of supporting troops and you want them to join the battle so that you don't have to deal with them after the main battle. Sit back, bust the walls open, and take units down in numbers; this always makes the bug worse. I will send you an email with a replay, so this way, it is played out as I would. I did just quit the battle when the bug got so annoying that I couldn't bear it anymore, so I don't know how that will work out in the replay.

    Also - When I made this replay, I had enabled triple buffering with CCC and changed the scripts to the ones I posted above and put my graphics back down to medium levels and disabled all the check boxes except VSync.

    I will try the sound next, but, I have tried this in the past.

    Edit: I included mortars this time so that the artillery can actually make it over the walls and damage the units.
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Sasu wrote: »
    Naturally, I'm just teaching myself on the side as this is getting to be quite a thriller :)

    Thanks, I think I'll try CCC... or equivalent...

    Indeed. I will not leave until this is resolved, for myself and others.
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  • IscaranIscaran Tech-Hero. Posts: 4,229Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    I did not have any lag that you described during my battle - if you though perceive one when you used my replay then my logic tells me that there must be something on your system causing this "visual lag"...

    As I said - though I had low FPS I did not have any kind of lag as you describe it in my replay. It took me some 10-15 minutes to do the complete battle (didn't check the watch :-/, but it didn't take too long).

    But please send me a replay of your style of battle - hopefully you can finish it, since the game really stalls down extremely judging from your videos. I really wish to compare it when I run it on my rig.
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  • SasuSasu Moderator FinlandPosts: 8,858Registered Users, Moderators
    edited November 2010
    evotuc wrote: »
    Indeed. I will not leave until this is resolved, for myself and others.

    Very commendable, I'd like to see this resolved also. In the days of "melee bug" I learned that these issues can be compared to the art of alchemy. It is a relief to have someone like Iscaran who donates his time to solve these and actually knows stuff...
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Iscaran wrote: »
    I did not have any lag that you described during my battle - if you though perceive one when you used my replay then my logic tells me that there must be something on your system causing this "visual lag"...

    As I said - though I had low FPS I did not have any kind of lag as you describe it in my replay. It took me some 10-15 minutes to do the complete battle (didn't check the watch :-/, but it didn't take too long).

    But please send me a replay of your style of battle - hopefully you can finish it, since the game really stalls down extremely judging from your videos. I really wish to compare it when I run it on my rig.


    I have sent you the replay and I am uploading videos to show how it acted on my system.
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Sasu wrote: »
    Very commendable, I'd like to see this resolved also. In the days of "melee bug" I learned that these issues can be compared to the art of alchemy. It is a relief to have someone like Iscaran who donates his time to solve these and actually knows stuff...

    Yes, Iscaran, thank you so much for all the time you are investing in this!
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Here is how the battle that I sent you the replay for acted for me:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ziyrXT44Lbc

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eDJszjL1mJ0
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  • IscaranIscaran Tech-Hero. Posts: 4,229Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    OK - thx for your replay now I get a picture of it myself.

    Honestly I now also know why I never encountered that as well....I just never had the time to bombard a fort for 20 minutes (fast forward) just to see this bug happen. I didn't even bother to finish the replay I quit after 25 minutes - it just takes too long for my taste to shoot down every single defender by artillery. I would have stormed the fort after 2 minutes....probably explains why not everyone "sees" this bug. I thought it had to do with "just breaching" the walls, but in fact it has to do with the prolonged time bombarding the AI in a breached fort which apparently causes the AI to run into a "decision making trap".

    Thats also why it doesn't come up in my saved replay - I started storming the fort after a minute after the breach in the wall, because I thought that was the way you did it...sitting back 20minutes and watching my artillery rain down fire would never have come to my mind :).

    Strange enough though it slowed down quite visibly it seemed still a lot smoother on my system than in the videos you recorded. So I think there is something more than just an AI problem going on...but thats another question.

    But I now totally agree it is a bug.
    Apparently a problem with the AI soaking up all CPU power because it cannot make a decision (my CPU was on 93% utilization for both cores - never seen it rise so high before in ETW at all, the rest was used up by my system. So indeed my CPU was "choking" running on maximum it could while this happened). So it seems the AI is trapped in the stage of "stay in the fort because enemy is stronger" and "run out of the fort because enemy artillery bombs you to pieces".

    I will spare my time recreating this on my own though - I just don't have enough time to stay back for so long in a siege battle :D.

    IMO - upload the replay for anyone not believing this is happening (like me :)). And contact SEGA support and send them the replay.
    Perhaps best to tell them it might also affect NTW its the same AI afaik just tweaked.

    IMO thats about your best chances to get something done. You convinced me, but honestly I played ETW for quite a long time and not in a single battle encountered this "slowdown".
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Yaaaaaaaaaaaayyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    I think I encountered this a lot more because my tactic was to walk right up to a severely reinforced region and take out ALL supporting troops.
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  • SasuSasu Moderator FinlandPosts: 8,858Registered Users, Moderators
    edited November 2010
    To clarify evotuc: does this occur when you have less or no artillery?
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Here is the replay that I shared with Iscaran.

    http://www.mediafire.com/?kn1v9pao1sfgiot
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Sasu wrote: »
    To clarify evotuc: does this occur when you have less or no artillery?

    As far as I can tell, you have to break the walls, (artillery and a fortified region), and bring the units down in numbers without coming in contact with them, (artillery).

    I can finally start breathing easier.
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  • SasuSasu Moderator FinlandPosts: 8,858Registered Users, Moderators
    edited November 2010
    evotuc wrote: »
    As far as I can tell, you have to break the walls, (artillery and a fortified region), and bring the units down in numbers without coming in contact with them, (artillery).

    I can finally start breathing easier.

    If you don't want to wait for an unlikely patch, therein lies you fix (diminish the artillery :)

    Anyhow, well done. (I absolutely love the scientific method :)
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Sasu wrote: »
    If you don't want to wait for an unlikely patch, therein lies you fix (diminish the artillery :)

    Anyhow, well done. (I absolutely love the scientific method :)

    This goes against mine and many others tactics. I cannot be expected to play differently just to satisfy poorly written code.
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    :D:D
    I'm not crazy...
    I'm not crazy...
    :D:D
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  • SasuSasu Moderator FinlandPosts: 8,858Registered Users, Moderators
    edited November 2010
    Just saying, that if we get a patch out of your efforts here, first round is on me.

    Edit: I absolutely agree that the code should not dictate player tactics.
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  • IscaranIscaran Tech-Hero. Posts: 4,229Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    This goes against mine and many others tactics. I cannot be expected to play differently just to satisfy poorly written code.

    Though I agree, I would still say you are exploiting the "dumbness" of the AI with this tactic...in other games such exploiting often leads to crashes instead of slowdowns or AI completely acting up. But yeah the AI could be better, especially battle and siege AI - but thaaaaaats a different story.
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    I know that it may seem silly to wait for so long, but, way back when, siege battles took days, even WEEKS! You can take on a huge force with a tiny one... as long as they don't rush out of the walls because they think they are safe.

    I will now contact Sega support... That's a whole other matter.

    I will link to this thread and provide the link to the replay as you have suggested.

    If only I had sent you a replay from the beginning....
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Getting something done, when other people's money is being used, is not easy. We will see if Sega and Creative Assembly will stand behind their products. I have not bought NTW and will not buy S2TW until this is fixed. I own every other TW game, though.
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Iscaran wrote: »
    Though I agree, I would still say you are exploiting the "dumbness" of the AI with this tactic...

    Is this not the basis of a successful campaign?
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  • nightwolf613nightwolf613 Member Posts: 37Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Sasu wrote: »
    Just saying, that if we get a patch out of your efforts here, first round is on me.

    Edit: I absolutely agree that the code should not dictate player tactics.

    Amen to that on both counts!
  • nightwolf613nightwolf613 Member Posts: 37Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    evotuc wrote: »
    Is this not the basis of a successful campaign?

    To out smart the other guy, yes.
  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Shireknight said this on another thread about the same problem:

    "If every user suffered from exactly the same problems then the logical conclusion would be that the software is faulty, as only a small minority suffer from any given problem that other users identify in the support forums then the logical conclusion is that the users PC configuration or other software/drivers that the users have installed is contributing to or even causing the problems reported."

    I would like to hear what he has to say now!
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  • SasuSasu Moderator FinlandPosts: 8,858Registered Users, Moderators
    edited November 2010
    Well, that is the logical conclusion as not everyone is suffering from this problem. As far as we know, only those players who use prominent amounts of artillery units when assaulting a fort, suffer from it.

    He can quote me...
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Sasu wrote: »
    Well, that is the logical conclusion as not everyone is suffering from this problem. As far as we know, only those players who use prominent amounts of artillery units when assaulting a fort, suffer from it.

    He can quote me...

    Any player on any system can recreate this frustrating, game breaking bug. The fact is that it IS in the code. He was stating that it WASN'T.

    Edit: He was also saying that it must be my configuration:

    "...then the logical conclusion is that the users PC configuration or other software/drivers that the users have installed is contributing to or even causing the problems reported."

    Also, you could come in with one cannon and recreate this bug.
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  • SasuSasu Moderator FinlandPosts: 8,858Registered Users, Moderators
    edited November 2010
    No, he was making a logical conclusion.
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  • evotucevotuc Senior Member Posts: 983Registered Users
    edited November 2010
    Just to satisfy the "It's the way you play," I have uploaded another replay. This time, I bring ONE CANNON UNIT and changed my game play quite a bit. I used the cannon to bust open the areas that can be broken, (except the door), to spread the enemy out as much as possible for a full on frontal attack with infantry. EDIT: THIS SHOULD BE WELL WITHIN THE ACCEPTABLE LIMITS OF THE CODE. Once again the bug initiates. It starts after the first hole is opened up. It gets aggravatingly slow after the second breach. By the third breach, I was about to give up, but this is for science, right? I thought it was going to crash by the fourth hole, (which takes FOREVER). I was able to get my infantry to the fort and inside, breaking the bug. Actually, I was able to find the enemy unit bugging out. By the time I was able to get my units up to the wall, I noticed a unit cycling between RUNNING\IDLE. Back and forth. He is on the left, (from your starting position), with two other units at that breach. Once he even notices us running by, the bug stops.


    http://www.mediafire.com/?ei0gibx0rxlrefe

    Please, try to make it through the whole thing. I know it's aggravating, but it shows the bug in its entirety.
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