Can someone explain to me what was exactly design desicion behind Nurgle?

Processing#6286

I don't want to discuss their battle prowess, I think CA got the lore aspect quite fine, I want to discuss their campaign play.

I have tried Nurgle campaign in IE maybe 4 times and I just can't get it. What are you supposed to play like? Generally speaking, there are 2 types of factions - good guys who make lot of money via trade and money buildings and bad guys who make money via fighting battles, sacking and razing and the like (and then there are GS who do both for some reason)

Nurgle is neither of these. Compared to Tzeentch or Slaanesh he makes NO MONEY and compared to Khorne he makes no money from battles and sacking...

His buildings are extremely expensive to the point where when you start conquering territory all of your settlements shall be without any building because you can't have free 5 to 10 k gold every time you conquer new settlement.

Not to mention you pay double the normal recruitment cost for you units, granted you do get them instantly..

Right, so maybe this faction was design to turtle and kind of either don't expand at all or expand very slowly? After all the victory conditions in Game III were improved, so now you mostly only have to INTERACT with 30 different settlements, so you can literally win the campaign with 1 settlement (I have done just that with Noctilus).

So maybe you are supposed to conquer your starting province and start sacking everything around until you get enough cash to develop everything you need and move forward, capture another province and rince and repeat.

Essentially you would be expanding veeery slowly, but that's kinda Nurgle's thing isn't it? Well, I still have issues with this.

Nurgle isn't design for that - factions that are (Vcoast and Khorne) get encamp at 0 movement range, essentially giving you high replenishment every end turn.

Additionally, Khorne gets bloodhost and VCoast get ship building.

Nurgle doesn't get anything like that. So what's the gameplay exactly? Clearly you can't play them horde-like and you can't normally expand, because everything is so damn expensive...

I am genuinely lost guys.

Captain_Rex#1635

Imagine playing a garden simulator. Every year some plants and flowers die to make place for new ones. And you are the gardener who makes sure everything is fine. And as a gardener you do your profession with love, passion and lots of creative freedom.

That’s pretty much Nurgle.

Tyrant#1234

Thematically I just find it odd that of all the places, they chose to start Nurgle on Dragon Isles in IE. Think about it.
Nurgle is all about contagions, starting the faction on an island seems counterproductive to the spreading of plague and viruses... Starting them on mainland Southlands would've made more sense.

Djau#5149

Tyrant#1234 said:

Thematically I just find it odd that of all the places, they chose to start Nurgle on Dragon Isles in IE. Think about it.
Nurgle is all about contagions, starting the faction on an island seems counterproductive to the spreading of plague and viruses... Starting them on mainland Southlands would've made more sense.

That island if I remember right has a lot of toxic run off from the Dawi Zharr lands.

Passthechips#4366

This was the little blurb they gave regarding Kugath’s start position:

Kugath has sailed from the southern wastes, drawn by the putrid sludge near the mouth of the River Ruin, settling nearby in Dragon Fang Mount within the Dragon Isles.

While I have not played a Nurgle campaign yet (it’s next on the list), the way I understand it is that you want to sack settlements while your army is infected with the Black Ague to reap a ton of money, while then infecting the settlement with the Green Pox to hyperdrive the growth.

Captain_Rex#1635

Djau#5149 said:

Tyrant#1234 said:

Thematically I just find it odd that of all the places, they chose to start Nurgle on Dragon Isles in IE. Think about it.
Nurgle is all about contagions, starting the faction on an island seems counterproductive to the spreading of plague and viruses... Starting them on mainland Southlands would've made more sense.

That island if I remember right has a lot of toxic run off from the Dawi Zharr lands.

And they also have many toxic specimens in general. That’s why Ku’Gath loves going there.

razenb#1517

Stupid grind to unlock black ague.

Neodeinos#5871

Buildings are expensive but you pay for them only once while other races have to pay for each upgrades.

You make money by sacking, even without the Black Plague you should get enough to build up your starting province which is a great province btw. It has 4 ports, one has a landmark giving you a decent income and it's a very defensible position. Once that province is maxed out you can get a really decent income out of it (for Nurgle at least). Don't worry about the settlements you take, building your starting province is more important. And once you unlock the Black Plague you simply can't have money issues.

Nurgle shines when he is played agressively imo (which might be counter intuitive with him I suppose), you get lots of money and lots of infection to spam your plagues this way.

Neodeinos#5871

Djau#5149 said:

Tyrant#1234 said:

Thematically I just find it odd that of all the places, they chose to start Nurgle on Dragon Isles in IE. Think about it.
Nurgle is all about contagions, starting the faction on an island seems counterproductive to the spreading of plague and viruses... Starting them on mainland Southlands would've made more sense.

That island if I remember right has a lot of toxic run off from the Dawi Zharr lands.

Yes, river Ruin sounds like an obvious spot that might interest Nurgle. Ku'Gath also got his lore updated before the release of the game and he went to the Dragon Isles to seek a rare ingredient so if you think about it his start really isn't that odd.

Tyrant#1234

Djau#5149 said:

Tyrant#1234 said:

Thematically I just find it odd that of all the places, they chose to start Nurgle on Dragon Isles in IE. Think about it.
Nurgle is all about contagions, starting the faction on an island seems counterproductive to the spreading of plague and viruses... Starting them on mainland Southlands would've made more sense.

That island if I remember right has a lot of toxic run off from the Dawi Zharr lands.

I thought it was just full of abanddoned Dinos and feral Lizardmen because the Slann there all died off long ago for unknown reasons.

dogoska#1535

There is a compreensive study on why nurgle has been poorly implemented on the suggestion forums.

IMHO, all monos need changes, tweaks and reworks but suffice to say nurgle needs the most attention he is less unkilly than undead at this point...

Ben1990#8909

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

Imagine playing a garden simulator. Every year some plants and flowers die to make place for new ones. And you are the gardener who makes sure everything is fine. And as a gardener you do your profession with love, passion and lots of creative freedom.

That’s pretty much Nurgle.

This. They wanted to go into his death and rebirth/nature-like theme. Wish only you could get GUOs a tad faster.

Neodeinos#5871

dogoska#1535 said:

There is a compreensive study on why nurgle has been poorly implemented on the suggestion forums.

IMHO, all monos need changes, tweaks and reworks but suffice to say nurgle needs the most attention he is less unkilly than undead at this point...

Gonna disagree with that, Nurgle is one of the most well thought out WH3 race imo. It does need some tweaking but nothing major, it's mostly his tech tree that I would change since it's clear it was designed for the RoC campaign which was a short sighted move from CA.

endurstonehelm#6102

I like Nurgle's implementation. It is a little bit weaker than the other Chaos Lords and definitely weaker than Warriors of Chaos. But I still like it. It could be that Nurgle campaign could be stronger. Or maybe I just need more practice with it to get more efficient.

Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157

Nurgle is the most flanderised thing in TWW.

#606339

Just did a nurgle playthrough last week, my only saving grace was the alliance with Grimgor
AI is almost immue to plague in higher difficulty, which kinda ruin the concept of Nurgle to gain money while weaken enemy by spreading plague
While Nurgle should be a defensive faction, they just don't have enough economy to stay home and play sim city, so instead they have to go sack people like Khorn, which is weird

Walfur#1660

F***ed in concept on every level.
On rails IE campaign.
Auto-resolve Faction.
Auto-economy.
Skip Turn.

Fever is probably still not fixed. I no longer care.

Rework or death.

#153592

I also find that Ku'gath in the Dragons Isles is a big mistake...

Ok it's a polluted area and they quickly created a lore on it, but it takes the place of a start Lizardmen which would be much more interesting there (I'm thinking in particular of Tetto'Eko which has a link with Tepok )

Also, Ku'gath is supposed to hate Dwarves and want to test his plagues on them because he doesn't understand why they are so resistant to them. But there are no Dwarves around, and the future Chaos Dwarfs are supposed to be different and of ally potential, so it doesn't work well either... I really wish it was moved to a more conventional location, with at least one nearby Dwarf faction at the start of the campaign.


Regarding the Nurgle faction, it is destabilizing at first because it is very different from the other factions, which is interesting and which fits well with its lore, so it is a success, on the other hand I also find that the faction lacks a additional mechanic, it seems inferior to the other factions of demons, as if it lacked a mechanic to be level!

Come to think of it, it's a fairly slow faction to develop and is very stagnant and cyclical, which is well represented, but what it lacks is a little offensive side, normally plagues are supposed to play this role, but since they've been nerfed and the AI ​​isn't affected as much as the player, it doesn't work very well.

I would love to see so it has a potential mechanic that would allow random pops of 3 mini armies in provinces where Nurgle's corruption is rising (to represent the fact that his areas are boiling and full of transformations), they should be very weak (for example just a Lord and 2 units, for example one of Nurglings and one of nurgle flies) (so we would have 3x3 units that would spawn in an area, they would not cost upkeep for 3 turns (the number 3 being the number linked to Nurgle) and that would force the enemy provinces to "clean up" their provinces before they become unmanageable, the Nurgle player could then choose to destroy them (so that they don't cost maintenance after 3 turns) or if they have not been destroyed, they would offer an offensive opening for a faction which clearly lacks it... thus it would improve the gameplay of the faction, by allowing it a new mechanical while respecting its lore.

What do you think?

Tyrant#1234

#153592 said:

I also find that Ku'gath in the Dragons Isles is a big mistake...

Ok it's a polluted area and they quickly created a lore on it, but it takes the place of a start Lizardmen which would be much more interesting there (I'm thinking in particular of Tetto'Eko which has a link with Tepok )

Also, Ku'gath is supposed to hate Dwarves and want to test his plagues on them because he doesn't understand why they are so resistant to them. But there are no Dwarves around, and the future Chaos Dwarfs are supposed to be different and of ally potential, so it doesn't work well either... I really wish it was moved to a more conventional location, with at least one nearby Dwarf faction at the start of the campaign.


Regarding the Nurgle faction, it is destabilizing at first because it is very different from the other factions, which is interesting and which fits well with its lore, so it is a success, on the other hand I also find that the faction lacks a additional mechanic, it seems inferior to the other factions of demons, as if it lacked a mechanic to be level!

Come to think of it, it's a fairly slow faction to develop and is very stagnant and cyclical, which is well represented, but what it lacks is a little offensive side, normally plagues are supposed to play this role, but since they've been nerfed and the AI ​​isn't affected as much as the player, it doesn't work very well.

I would love to see so it has a potential mechanic that would allow random pops of 3 mini armies in provinces where Nurgle's corruption is rising (to represent the fact that his areas are boiling and full of transformations), they should be very weak (for example just a Lord and 2 units, for example one of Nurglings and one of nurgle flies) (so we would have 3x3 units that would spawn in an area, they would not cost upkeep for 3 turns (the number 3 being the number linked to Nurgle) and that would force the enemy provinces to "clean up" their provinces before they become unmanageable, the Nurgle player could then choose to destroy them (so that they don't cost maintenance after 3 turns) or if they have not been destroyed, they would offer an offensive opening for a faction which clearly lacks it... thus it would improve the gameplay of the faction, by allowing it a new mechanical while respecting its lore.

What do you think?

If I'm not mistaken, the lore around Dragon Isles being polluted is new, created to justify Ku'gath's IE start location.
Before WH3, it was just known for being associated with feral Lizardmen and Dinos. I too would've prefered Tetto'Eko to start there, trying to reestablish links with the feral Lizardmen and bring them back into the fold.

lcmiracle#6727

Yes, the Dragon Isles were mentioned in 6th edition Lizardmen army book to be a land of Lizardmen that's degenerated into barbarism.

CA using it as the stumping ground for Kugath seems to me to be a decision out of convenience. Since in lore that area would likely be filled with warring tribes of feral Lizardmen and instead of having multiple minor Lizardmen factions starting there at war with one another, they would prefer it be a playable faction.

ArecBalrin#2350

Someone got creative. It grinds against the surrounding game design, which is anti-creative and tries to force the player into certain things without any explanation for why.

dogoska#1535

ArecBalrin#2350 said:

Someone got creative. It grinds against the surrounding game design, which is anti-creative and tries to force the player into certain things without any explanation for why.

Indeed, nurgle is very interesting but its technology tree is horrible, its economy is bad and their battle prowess is boring.
Doesn`t help that corruption is now meaningless, PO and rebels not an issue and that the AI suffers little effects from plagues.

ArecBalrin#2350

It's not the first time either and there are many such cases.

Thrones of Britannia had an interesting but overlooked design change; a chance for each successful attack to 'critically hit', a flat-percentage based on the weapon-type, and all critical-hits were instantly-lethal to most models.

This somewhat resembled how combat dynamics used to work in Total War; most models that died did so because they each received a single devastating attack, usually caused by a decision of the player. These have not existed in Total War since Rome II when the combat systems were completely overhauled and healthbars replaced the single hitpoint most model entities had.

This change in ToB seemed like someone at CA realised the problem caused when healthbars make multi-model units basically invincible until each model's health is chipped-away enough, the problem was it was in ToB no one else at CA even understood there was a problem. They still don't.

It's the primary reason for the battle-pacing in modern Total Wars being utterly garbage.

Morphee#8827

Nurgle is actually really strong. Worst things to deal with at start though are really bad health replenishment and slow economy. Starting position isn't that bad cause it prevents you from being attacked much all around, which is important since Nurgle is slow and doesn't have enough cash at start to manage many armies.

Buildings rotations is a nice idea when it comes to recruitment but CA should remove it from all grow/cash buildings, we don't need anything random there, no logic, no fun --> Yeet

If you can survive enough turns and capture a few regions around, Nurgle can become a real powerhouse if you can survive a few things such as bad regen and climate malus. CA should adjust Nurgle and make it way more adaptative, less attrition damages would be a good start, I mean Nurgle armies could definitely endure attritions better, and also be able to colonize different climates more easily, especially since all regions around have malus, which is a bit of a mess design wise.

Once you start developping Nurgle is slowly becoming one of the strongest factions, you can even get a lof of money at some point. Plagues are the key to everything, need cash there's a plague for that, needs regen there's a plague for that, want unkillable units there's also a plague for that. Seriously, once you know how to manage your plagues Nurgle becomes unstoppable.
Once you have enough money do not waste your time moving armies around to defend, just buy a whole army when it's needed, you can recruit a whole army in one turn to defend, just do that and yeet it after.

davedave1124#4773

I’m quite happy with how Nurgle works and I really don’t think he has to exist within two very simple game design ideas.

He’s fast replenishment and can create almost instant armies with his recruitment mechanic.

This doesn’t see like a real debate for the game. Why isn’t Nurgle similar to the two design types I think the game is split into? Because he isn’t.. and it works well.

dogoska#1535

davedave1124#4773 said:

I’m quite happy with how Nurgle works and I really don’t think he has to exist within two very simple game design ideas.

He’s fast replenishment and can create almost instant armies with his recruitment mechanic.

This doesn’t see like a real debate for the game. Why isn’t Nurgle similar to the two design types I think the game is split into? Because he isn’t.. and it works well.

Nurgle is really bad his tech is horrible, his units are eaten alive by ranged (cloud of flies does not protect from ranged?), they lack anti-large, they suffer from daemonic instability, their towns are vulnerable, plagues are underpowered because of many of the changes (even though infections are very easy to get) and nurgle`s manifestations/cults are the worst.

Remove mortal units from nurgle and you`ll see just how bad he is, he can`t deal with the undead without exalted lords to deal damage to single entities.

Nurgle was poorly implemented and lacks balance just like all monogods and even 3rd game`s faction, it is not a matter of his cycle of life and death mechanic, it is a matter of execution of everything else.

davedave1124#4773

dogoska#1535 said:

davedave1124#4773 said:

I’m quite happy with how Nurgle works and I really don’t think he has to exist within two very simple game design ideas.

He’s fast replenishment and can create almost instant armies with his recruitment mechanic.

This doesn’t see like a real debate for the game. Why isn’t Nurgle similar to the two design types I think the game is split into? Because he isn’t.. and it works well.

Nurgle is really bad his tech is horrible, his units are eaten alive by ranged (cloud of flies does not protect from ranged?), they lack anti-large, they suffer from daemonic instability, their towns are vulnerable, plagues are underpowered because of many of the changes (even though infections are very easy to get) and nurgle`s manifestations/cults are the worst.

Remove mortal units from nurgle and you`ll see just how bad he is, he can`t deal with the undead without exalted lords to deal damage to single entities.

Nurgle was poorly implemented and lacks balance just like all monogods and even 3rd game`s faction, it is not a matter of his cycle of life and death mechanic, it is a matter of execution of everything else.

We must be playing a different game. The healing potential of Nurgle armies nullifies most issues and his speed of recruitment is excellent. His plagues allow for extreme recovery as well.

Why would I remove mortal units? They’re part of Nurgle.

Nurgle simply plays differently and requires some thought to play, which isn’t a bad thing in a strategy game.

dogoska#1535

davedave1124#4773 said:

dogoska#1535 said:

davedave1124#4773 said:

I’m quite happy with how Nurgle works and I really don’t think he has to exist within two very simple game design ideas.

He’s fast replenishment and can create almost instant armies with his recruitment mechanic.

This doesn’t see like a real debate for the game. Why isn’t Nurgle similar to the two design types I think the game is split into? Because he isn’t.. and it works well.

Nurgle is really bad his tech is horrible, his units are eaten alive by ranged (cloud of flies does not protect from ranged?), they lack anti-large, they suffer from daemonic instability, their towns are vulnerable, plagues are underpowered because of many of the changes (even though infections are very easy to get) and nurgle`s manifestations/cults are the worst.

Remove mortal units from nurgle and you`ll see just how bad he is, he can`t deal with the undead without exalted lords to deal damage to single entities.

Nurgle was poorly implemented and lacks balance just like all monogods and even 3rd game`s faction, it is not a matter of his cycle of life and death mechanic, it is a matter of execution of everything else.

We must be playing a different game. The healing potential of Nurgle armies nullifies most issues and his speed of recruitment is excellent. His plagues allow for extreme recovery as well.

Why would I remove mortal units? They’re part of Nurgle.

Nurgle simply plays differently and requires some thought to play, which isn’t a bad thing in a strategy game.

Lore of nurgle is strong, but that is not the point nurgle has plenty of issues and any faction can currently win the game because of how dumb and passive the AI currently is.

Festus is a better nurgle than Ku`garth himself (fun fact festus will spread cults giving you sight of him and he will hate you).

A fun trivia that shows how screwed monogods are because of poor implementation is vampiric corruption, if the province has 50+ of that corruption, be of the chosen god and some vampire corruption, you will take attrition.

davedave1124#4773

dogoska#1535 said:

davedave1124#4773 said:

dogoska#1535 said:

davedave1124#4773 said:

I’m quite happy with how Nurgle works and I really don’t think he has to exist within two very simple game design ideas.

He’s fast replenishment and can create almost instant armies with his recruitment mechanic.

This doesn’t see like a real debate for the game. Why isn’t Nurgle similar to the two design types I think the game is split into? Because he isn’t.. and it works well.

Nurgle is really bad his tech is horrible, his units are eaten alive by ranged (cloud of flies does not protect from ranged?), they lack anti-large, they suffer from daemonic instability, their towns are vulnerable, plagues are underpowered because of many of the changes (even though infections are very easy to get) and nurgle`s manifestations/cults are the worst.

Remove mortal units from nurgle and you`ll see just how bad he is, he can`t deal with the undead without exalted lords to deal damage to single entities.

Nurgle was poorly implemented and lacks balance just like all monogods and even 3rd game`s faction, it is not a matter of his cycle of life and death mechanic, it is a matter of execution of everything else.

We must be playing a different game. The healing potential of Nurgle armies nullifies most issues and his speed of recruitment is excellent. His plagues allow for extreme recovery as well.

Why would I remove mortal units? They’re part of Nurgle.

Nurgle simply plays differently and requires some thought to play, which isn’t a bad thing in a strategy game.

Lore of nurgle is strong, but that is not the point nurgle has plenty of issues and any faction can currently win the game because of how dumb and passive the AI currently is.

Festus is a better nurgle than Ku`garth himself (fun fact festus will spread cults giving you sight of him and he will hate you).

A fun trivia that shows how screwed monogods are because of poor implementation is vampiric corruption, if the province has 50+ of that corruption, be of the chosen god and some vampire corruption, you will take attrition.

Most reasonably good players can beat most factions. Yes, they lore of Nurgle and the strong Nurgle Lords balance out other weaknesses in the roster.

I enjoy playing both.. sorry.

Neodeinos#5871

dogoska#1535 said:

davedave1124#4773 said:

dogoska#1535 said:

davedave1124#4773 said:

I’m quite happy with how Nurgle works and I really don’t think he has to exist within two very simple game design ideas.

He’s fast replenishment and can create almost instant armies with his recruitment mechanic.

This doesn’t see like a real debate for the game. Why isn’t Nurgle similar to the two design types I think the game is split into? Because he isn’t.. and it works well.

Nurgle is really bad his tech is horrible, his units are eaten alive by ranged (cloud of flies does not protect from ranged?), they lack anti-large, they suffer from daemonic instability, their towns are vulnerable, plagues are underpowered because of many of the changes (even though infections are very easy to get) and nurgle`s manifestations/cults are the worst.

Remove mortal units from nurgle and you`ll see just how bad he is, he can`t deal with the undead without exalted lords to deal damage to single entities.

Nurgle was poorly implemented and lacks balance just like all monogods and even 3rd game`s faction, it is not a matter of his cycle of life and death mechanic, it is a matter of execution of everything else.

We must be playing a different game. The healing potential of Nurgle armies nullifies most issues and his speed of recruitment is excellent. His plagues allow for extreme recovery as well.

Why would I remove mortal units? They’re part of Nurgle.

Nurgle simply plays differently and requires some thought to play, which isn’t a bad thing in a strategy game.

Lore of nurgle is strong, but that is not the point nurgle has plenty of issues and any faction can currently win the game because of how dumb and passive the AI currently is.

Festus is a better nurgle than Ku`garth himself (fun fact festus will spread cults giving you sight of him and he will hate you).

A fun trivia that shows how screwed monogods are because of poor implementation is vampiric corruption, if the province has 50+ of that corruption, be of the chosen god and some vampire corruption, you will take attrition.

I completely disagree that Festus is a better Nurgle than Ku'Gath and I'm saying that as someone who waited years for Festus. Festus, like the other Champions of Chaos just feels like the other Undivided WoC but with a slight flavour of Nurgle. He'd be 10 times more fun and interesting to play if he was in Nurgle instead of WoC.

Nitros14#7973

Of course Festus is better than Kugath.

Warriors of Chaos are the most recent DLC, they're all incredibly overpowered.

I'd be disappointed if Kugath were buffed instead of Festus nerfed.