Deamons are OP. They shouldn't have Warriors of chaos units

#24699

WH III Deamon races has really good economy. They can afford large armies. Slaanesh and Tzeentch are rich thanks to tax income. Khorne has poor tax income but many battle-related incomes. I ignore Nurgle anyway because they need help. It was balanced as long as they haven't WoC units to recruit. Khorne works well because deamons of khorne are similarily armoured to WoC. Slaanesh and Tzeentch are super powerful now thanks to pure armour and shields. This is bad because they can afford much more warriors of chaos than Warriors of Chaos, and because this is not how those races were supposed to play on battlefield. Slaaneshi and Tzeentchian unique playstyles are gone because of it's ineffectiveness in comparison to tought and cheap infantry.

We should stay with fragile deamonic infantry and beast and give them more replenishment and more recruitment point just as skaven, tomb king and greenskins have.

dogoska#1535

Daemons are not overpowered slannesh is a glass cannon and N`kari gets killed very easily to ranged and its economy ins`t that great unless you get big vassals , Tzeentch has mostly ranged firepower and magic, horros suck in melee and tzeentch has trouble using most of his grimoires.Khorne was already nerfed with max 50% speed modifier and only 5 turns of blood for the blood god he also bleeds money like hell.

Daemons only appear OP because the AI is not giving their best but all daemons have the horrible mechanic of unstability which makes leadership bombing them strong.

Mortals are fine in their roster, they fill the gaps left because of their overspecialization (better armored units for slannesh, better melee for tzeentch and better standing power and even ranged for khorne).

#24699

dogoska Slaanesh is twice as rich as the second plance in the list. Minor settlement with income of 1k gold per turn is OP as hell. I don't know why you mentioned vassals. They are useless for making money. Such amount of money means that you can autoresolve everything thanks to preponderance.

You got marauders to soak up damage and N'kari shouldn't even be targeted if you play well.

erhartm91#4908

The monogod factions were terrible before they had mortal units with the Champions of Chaos DLC. They really need those mortal units, or else they wouldn’t stand a chance against all of the other races with complete rosters from WH1 and 2.

They are definitely not OP with mortal units, either in campaign or in multiplayer.

#24699

erhartm They are supposed to be weaker than races with dlc's.

If another dlc for kislev or cathay be just the same units that empire or high elves already has, you would be glad? Would you buy this dlc or rather download a mod with unlocks these units by writing them to another race? CA gave of itself 30% . Free is a fair price for such an update

Even if sb agrees with you, there is a question: Should be monogod races the same thing as Warriors of Chaos? Shouldn't they have unique playstyle without the most boring thing imaginable - slow, armoured infantry?

dogoska#1535

#24699 said:

erhartm They are supposed to be weaker than races with dlc's.

If another dlc for kislev or cathay be just the same units that empire or high elves already has, you would be glad? Would you buy this dlc or rather download a mod with unlocks these units by writing them to another race? CA gave of itself 30% . Free is a fair price for such an update

Even if sb agrees with you, there is a question: Should be monogod races the same thing as Warriors of Chaos? Shouldn't they have unique playstyle without the most boring thing imaginable - slow, armoured infantry?

Oranges and apples, cathay and kislev can get some empire or HE units but they are not the same faction.

WoC on the other hand are followers of Chaos and monogods so it makes sense they have some of the factions units and mortal lords, it is a bland choice but unless they take liberties with monogods you won`t have pure demon armies and they do suffer a lot with daemon only armies (apart from tzeentch ranged eats them alive).

erhartm91#4908

#24699 said:

erhartm They are supposed to be weaker than races with dlc's.

If another dlc for kislev or cathay be just the same units that empire or high elves already has, you would be glad? Would you buy this dlc or rather download a mod with unlocks these units by writing them to another race? CA gave of itself 30% . Free is a fair price for such an update

Even if sb agrees with you, there is a question: Should be monogod races the same thing as Warriors of Chaos? Shouldn't they have unique playstyle without the most boring thing imaginable - slow, armoured infantry?

The Chaos Gods are supposed to have devoted mortal followers, this is just how Chaos is supposed to be. It makes sense for Slaanesh to have Slaanesh marauders, warriors, etc., whereas it wouldn't make sense at all for the Grand Cathay regular roster to just have random High Elf units in it.

I think you were missing my point about the monogod factions needing these units to stand a chance. The daemons available for each monogod faction are extremely limited and can't fill all of the necessary roles by themselves. The monogod factions need the mortal units to fill out those roles that they otherwise wouldn't have.

I'm sorry, but this idea of yours is just not a good one.

#24699

erhartm91#4908 said:

The Chaos Gods are supposed to have devoted mortal followers, this is just how Chaos is supposed to be. It makes sense for Slaanesh to have Slaanesh marauders, warriors, etc., whereas it wouldn't make sense at all for the Grand Cathay regular roster to just have random High Elf units in it.

I think you were missing my point about the monogod factions needing these units to stand a chance.

Are these followers supposed to be so tough? Don't mention the lore. That makes no sense. This game should be balanced, playable and fun. Many units in this game works the same and they are different units from the lore perspective. Bretonnia and Cathay archers are the same unit. WoC don't fit so good for slaanesh, because they made mid campaign too easy.

If you think Slaanesh was too weak before (i disagree. It was pretty balanced but difficult on the start) it should be rather resolved by buffing daemonettes, fiends (this is slaaneshi unit which actually need melee buff!) and keeper of secrets. Whatsmore Slaanesh should have those campaign buffs to replenishment and recruitment as I mentioned previously.

With those changes Slaanesh could be strong enough and preserve its unique playstyle.

ottakanawa#9312

LOL no

dogoska#1535

#24699 said:

erhartm91#4908 said:

The Chaos Gods are supposed to have devoted mortal followers, this is just how Chaos is supposed to be. It makes sense for Slaanesh to have Slaanesh marauders, warriors, etc., whereas it wouldn't make sense at all for the Grand Cathay regular roster to just have random High Elf units in it.

I think you were missing my point about the monogod factions needing these units to stand a chance.

Are these followers supposed to be so tough? Don't mention the lore. That makes no sense. This game should be balanced, playable and fun. Many units in this game works the same and they are different units from the lore perspective. Bretonnia and Cathay archers are the same unit. WoC don't fit so good for slaanesh, because they made mid campaign too easy.

If you think Slaanesh was too weak before (i disagree. It was pretty balanced but difficult on the start) it should be rather resolved by buffing daemonettes, fiends (this is slaaneshi unit which actually need melee buff!) and keeper of secrets. Whatsmore Slaanesh should have those campaign buffs to replenishment and recruitment as I mentioned previously.

With those changes Slaanesh could be strong enough and preserve its unique playstyle.

Monos were made for IM which makes them gimmicky and do need a campaing rework:

slannesh gifts are its main way of getting free armies and a few bonus (also cultist spam), its daemonnetes seem overtuned but die like droves and they are expensive its chariots are honestly bad and sieges are a death sentence.

Nurgle likewise is about waiting for too long whilst your plagues do very little right now but are very cheap (infections are so easy to get), by then the AI will have top tier units that will outclass you (also nurgle has no daemon AL).

Tzeentch is a mostly ranged army that kinda sucks early game as ranged but make it up by having a strong blue line to screw the AI over with grimoires, but other wise is very vulnerable to even counter ranged and artillary and will crumble in melee (plus dumb AI that blobs helps).

Khorne feels the most complete because on a warpath he makes a fortune and is a force of to be feared, all his buildings give some income to field actuall armies, problem is that he is also gimmicky in that he needs bloodhost to keep the momentum or else he comes to standstill (also skulls should be expendable in other way).

Mortals are the least problem of the monogods roster.