So ehm, Nurgle is FINALLY getting some buffs

Processing#6286

And people say that crying on forum doesn't do ****...

Hehe

Seriously though, this is needed. Even if we discount Ghorst from this, Nurgle is objectively bad faction.

He pays 200% for his units that he gets DAMAGED while WoC get them healthy and only pay 150%.

He pays 5K for his red building while other factions pay 500/1000/1500


He earns less money with buildings than Tzeentch and Slaanesh while also makes less money from battles than Khorne.

His techs are bad as well.

The only good things about that faction is Kugath himself.

Just because there are few people here (Yes, I am talking to you, YOU!) who are fine with badly designed faction clearly designed around RoC and not IE isn't enough reason for devs to ignore the majority who think that Nurgle needs buffs.

Buff Ogres next.

I have won Neo.

Neodeinos#5871

"Nurgle is objectively bad faction"

No he's not, Nurgle plays very well but I suppose a campaign that requires some thoughts is difficult for the smooth brains that starts crying as soon as they face something somewhat challenging in their campaigns.

He's not perfect for sure and absolutely needs some changes like a full rework of his tech tree. But saying that Nurgle is bad or weak is so blatantly false and stupid.

Passthechips#4366

Wow you really leaped to a conclusion there, huh?

The quote from the tracker was:
“ Ku'gath has a rough start in Immortal Empires.”

A fix to that could mean a host of things, anywhere from a start position change, to a nerf to Ku’gath’s surrounding enemies, to a change of Ku’gath’s starting units.

It does not necessarily mean Nurgle will be getting blanket buffs. Nurgle doesn’t need buffs, just a change to his bad tech tree, but those aren’t exactly relevant to Ku’gath’s struggles with a rough start anyways.

Neodeinos#5871

Passthechips#4366 said:

It does not necessarily mean Nurgle will be getting blanket buffs. Nurgle doesn’t need buffs, just a change to his bad tech tree, but those aren’t exactly relevant to Ku’gath’s struggles with a rough start anyways.

Also Unholy Manifestations and Cults rework but then that is true for other Monogods as well.

Valkaar#2507

What source are we discussing?

DarthEnderX-#6513

Valkaar#2507 said:

What source are we discussing?

This I think?

saj1987#4378

Neodeinos#5871 said:

"Nurgle is objectively bad faction"

No he's not, Nurgle plays very well but I suppose a campaign that requires some thoughts is difficult for the smooth brains that starts crying as soon as they face something somewhat challenging in their campaigns.

He's not perfect for sure and absolutely needs some changes like a full rework of his tech tree. But saying that Nurgle is bad or weak is so blatantly false and stupid.

Yeee Nurgle's so good I have a hard time thinking of a faction thats actually worse. So good.
Can you give me 2-3 examples of factions that are weaker?

BorgerBoar#2786

What makes you think that a forum with 20 people posting has any impact on the company's decisions? They probably just looked at the NUMBERS and realised that people quit the campaign more than they do others. The literally have all of the stats.

Djau#5149

He needs a bit of an economy improvement or unit cost decrease.

Cyresdog#8125

Nurgle/Kugaths campaign for me is good and fun because it is challenging and pretty much completely different from any other faction.
Because unlike other factions, he simply doesn't want to start a battle head on, he wants to weaken armies and factions through plagues, and then attack them after they get severly weakened on the campaign map.

His battles are also exactly what i want from a Nurgle faction, tanky, sustaining demons that don't win by power, but by grinding the enemy down.

You don't like him? Fine, thats on you, doesn't mean they have to make him a green copy from all the other factions.

I can 100% get why a lot of people don't like that style of game, it is slow, it requires a bit of preparation and its borderline boring due to long waits.
But not every campaign has to be speedrunned, just like not every single faction leader needs their very own mechanics.
Sometimes Vanilla and boring is good, sometimes that is exactly what i want. And that is totally okay.

Koronus#5034

I think people think of slow and boring waiting bad because the game has since beginning screaming to you, if you do not go fast you lose. I am used to this comming from Rome II and Dwarfs but since II the game constantly told me, that if I do sit in my bases and just build up I am doing wrong. So people get the feeling Nurgle is bad cause sitting and waiting is bad practice is what Total Warhammer thought them because if you do not go out and kill constantly the enemies you will then instead getting killed.

Commissar_G#7535

Is not a big part of the issue the race was balanced with plagues in mind, but taking permanent attrition was arse to play against so they nerfed it without compensation elsewhere?

Bloodydagger#9716

This is why I'm against crying for nerfs on public forums. Stuff like this happens.

Nyxilis#3646

Oh for when they buff him and people start wailing that he's to strong. Soon, soon.

Slugus#5078

Nice trolling, nowhere does it say Nurgle is getting buffs.

Ku'gath having a rough start position in Immortal Empires means they'll most likely adjust his start in some fashion, the position, starting army, unique landmark building or perhaps they'll shift Ghorst... however buffing Nurgle as you claim is happening would affect his RoC campaign which there is no need to do.

spivo#7615

I see them giving;
- his starting army 1-2 extra units, can't be mortals (because of DLC barrier), so maybe warshrine or soulgrinder, excalted plaguebearers, or a beast of nurgle.
- minor boost to economy buildings, and better garrison (that follows the cycle).
- make tech tree make sense...

dogoska#1535

Commissar_G#7535 said:

Is not a big part of the issue the race was balanced with plagues in mind, but taking permanent attrition was arse to play against so they nerfed it without compensation elsewhere?

Attrition is only effieciente against the player though and his plagues were nerfed and they have a hard time spreading right now even on his corrupted land. CA designed nurgle to keep spreading plagues until new symptons were unloncked but right now the best way to play Ku`garth is to spam the same plague on him, his armies and settlements to unlock the recipe plagues.

In IE it feels oddly weird that his plagues don`t last long enough or aren`t corruptive enough (although this has to do with far too much untainted right now) whilst skaven plagues are more infectious and dangerous (at the cost of backfring).

Eimosan#8471

Mappainted nurgle back when only Realms of chaos was available (modded out the soul race because it was cancer)

The biggest problem I had was defending my turf. The garrisons for Kugath were abysmal and it's clear that the devs thought that plagues would be enough to do that job. They don't hurt, but the attrition they get is just not enough, especially since the AI gets attrition loopholes. The early game leaves you with limited diseases to use while the late game still leaves you with early game settlement protection. You still suck, but it's for different reasons as you go. The cycle mechanic proved annoying too as you could have SEVERAL late game buildings, but little late game units (that goes away in the late game though).

All I want from Nurgle is a normal, balanced, garrison building chain. Everyone is screaming "techtreetechtreetechtree", but I have never paid attention to techtrees. Tech can't, and shouldn't, be a gamechanging replacement for battle and campaign strategies. Keep your empire afloat and acquire tech at your leisure.

spivo#7615

Eimosan#8471 said:

All I want from Nurgle is a normal, balanced, garrison building chain. Everyone is screaming "techtreetechtreetechtree", but I have never paid attention to techtrees. Tech can't, and shouldn't, be a gamechanging replacement for battle and campaign strategies. Keep your empire afloat and acquire tech at your leisure.

I think people focus on the tech, because it stands out as a clear remnant from RoC, and clearly not updated to Ku'Gaths summer residence.
And your argument can be said about garrison, adapt to the hand you are given (which is what I read into it, but I might be wrong and if so, sorry). Not saying the garrison seems right (they are patheticly weak), but the ability to summon a 20 stack in 1 turn and have it healed and rdy the next turn, does make garrisons less important. If... and with Ku'Gath that is a major IF, you can afford it
Add to that being the (best?) hero spamming faction, allows you to scout for enemy armies, deliver a -20% movement debuff and summon an army to help defend.

Everything else, but Ku'Gaths technology, can be turned into a "play better" argument "not all factions are easy" etc etc...
But the technology stands out as lacking an update, which indicates not much thought were put into Ku'Gath, which means that the Ghorst, garrison, economy, cycle, etc... all are things that very much might not be as intended.
In other words: The tech tree is the smoking gun

Neodeinos#5871

Eimosan#8471 said:

Mappainted nurgle back when only Realms of chaos was available (modded out the soul race because it was cancer)

The biggest problem I had was defending my turf. The garrisons for Kugath were abysmal and it's clear that the devs thought that plagues would be enough to do that job. They don't hurt, but the attrition they get is just not enough, especially since the AI gets attrition loopholes. The early game leaves you with limited diseases to use while the late game still leaves you with early game settlement protection. You still suck, but it's for different reasons as you go. The cycle mechanic proved annoying too as you could have SEVERAL late game buildings, but little late game units (that goes away in the late game though).

All I want from Nurgle is a normal, balanced, garrison building chain. Everyone is screaming "techtreetechtreetechtree", but I have never paid attention to techtrees. Tech can't, and shouldn't, be a gamechanging replacement for battle and campaign strategies. Keep your empire afloat and acquire tech at your leisure.

I've seen some modders talk about it on Reddit a while ago and the AI actually doesn't have any cheat against Nurgle's attrition which is the only one where it is the case IIRC.

Orophen#3766

Processing#6286 said:

And people say that crying on forum doesn't do ****...

Hehe

Seriously though, this is needed. Even if we discount Ghorst from this, Nurgle is objectively bad faction.

He pays 200% for his units that he gets DAMAGED while WoC get them healthy and only pay 150%.

He pays 5K for his red building while other factions pay 500/1000/1500


He earns less money with buildings than Tzeentch and Slaanesh while also makes less money from battles than Khorne.

His techs are bad as well.

The only good things about that faction is Kugath himself.

Just because there are few people here (Yes, I am talking to you, YOU!) who are fine with badly designed faction clearly designed around RoC and not IE isn't enough reason for devs to ignore the majority who think that Nurgle needs buffs.

Buff Ogres next.

I have won Neo.

Where did you get this info?

Slugus#5078

Orophen#3766 said:

Processing#6286 said:

And people say that crying on forum doesn't do ****...

Hehe

Seriously though, this is needed. Even if we discount Ghorst from this, Nurgle is objectively bad faction.

He pays 200% for his units that he gets DAMAGED while WoC get them healthy and only pay 150%.

He pays 5K for his red building while other factions pay 500/1000/1500


He earns less money with buildings than Tzeentch and Slaanesh while also makes less money from battles than Khorne.

His techs are bad as well.

The only good things about that faction is Kugath himself.

Just because there are few people here (Yes, I am talking to you, YOU!) who are fine with badly designed faction clearly designed around RoC and not IE isn't enough reason for devs to ignore the majority who think that Nurgle needs buffs.

Buff Ogres next.

I have won Neo.

Where did you get this info?

From the known Issues pinned post:
"[NEW] Ku'gath has a rough start in Immortal Empires."

afverrall#1754

I'm pleased cold one units are on the radar too.

saweendra#3399

afverrall#1754 said:

I'm pleased cold one units are on the radar too.

That doesn't matter sure they aren't too hot in camapagin but they work


The cold one chariot has been bugged since wh 2 release and CA has never fixed the thing

Neodeinos#5871

saweendra#3399 said:

afverrall#1754 said:

I'm pleased cold one units are on the radar too.

That doesn't matter sure they aren't too hot in camapagin but they work


The cold one chariot has been bugged since wh 2 release and CA has never fixed the thing

What's bugged with them ?

saweendra#3399

Neodeinos#5871 said:

saweendra#3399 said:

afverrall#1754 said:

I'm pleased cold one units are on the radar too.

That doesn't matter sure they aren't too hot in camapagin but they work


The cold one chariot has been bugged since wh 2 release and CA has never fixed the thing

What's bugged with them ?

The cold ones on the front can not attack
The bug has migrated to all the seekers as well.

While all horses can and that hurts

Eimosan#8471

spivo#7615 said:

I think people focus on the tech, because it stands out as a clear remnant from RoC, and clearly not updated to Ku'Gaths summer residence.

Possible. Some anti-infantry buffs would help against the monster that Helman Ghorst has become. Im not saying the tech tree is perfect. I literally don't notice what Im upgrading half the time unless I'm seriously desperate, but that shouldn't be the priority.

spivo#7615 said:

And your argument can be said about garrison, adapt to the hand you are given (which is what I read into it, but I might be wrong and if so, sorry).

That's taking it to an extreme. A bad garrison hurts much more than a bad tech tree. You can still """adapt""" like I did, but It's easier to adapt to getting a shot than getting shot. I'd rather have units with slightly less upgraded stats in battle than lesser tier units or worse no units at all. Garrisons are huge in this game and even the lowly chaff matters.

spivo#7615 said:

Not saying the garrison seems right (they are patheticly weak), but the ability to summon a 20 stack in 1 turn and have it healed and rdy the next turn, does make garrisons less important. If... and with Ku'Gath that is a major IF, you can afford it
Add to that being the (best?) hero spamming faction, allows you to scout for enemy armies, deliver a -20% movement debuff and summon an army to help defend.

Correction. You get a 10 stack on one turn for the price of a 20 stack in one turn. Nurgle's armies start up at half mast remember? All the units are at half strength. That's if you can afford it AND you have the units in stock AND you get the army to the battle (movement plagues help do help with this, but not always depending on geography)

You can do that, Iv'e done that, but it's tedious. The whole time I'm thinking "All these mechanics and trouble that could be mitigated by a decent garrison".

spivo#7615 said:

Everything else, but Ku'Gaths technology, can be turned into a "play better" argument "not all factions are easy" etc etc...

Why not? It's just free buffs given for surviving longer turns at the end of the day? Survive longer. Not all factions are easy. If you're willing to put something so critical as a garrison to be a matter of skill then surely a tech tree would be moreso.

spivo#7615 said:

But the technology stands out as lacking an update, which indicates not much thought were put into Ku'Gath, which means that the Ghorst, garrison, economy, cycle, etc... all are things that very much might not be as intended.
In other words: The tech tree is the smoking gun

I agree that the metaphorical house is on fire, but you need to be concerned about the metaphorical women and children inside and not the metaphorical TV.

spivo#7615

Eimosan#8471 said:

I agree that the metaphorical house is on fire, but you need to be concerned about the metaphorical women and children inside and not the metaphorical TV.

I didn't really mean to get into a detailed discussion on Nurgle being balanced or not, I don't think it is balanced, but I think it's fine that some starts are bad/poorly balanced.

Campaigns being fun, for me, only comes down to me being allowed to do some weird stuff. And Ku'Gath ticks that box, as you can go bonkers with characters, spreading plagues are fun (to me), and the AI thinks all my armies suck, so I never have to chase anyone, and they gladly attack my armies.
I also think watching Nurgle fight is one of the most underrated experiences in WH3, and people give way to little credit to CA for how well they've designed all 4 Chaos daemons, but thats besides the point...
I've not done any Nurgle fights that were not highly entertaining, the voice-line of Ku'Gath and excalted GUO is spot on, and the amount of disgust makes it the most "in-character" experiences in the game, imo.
Garrisons have been a very minor problem in my campaigns, as I state above "the AI goes for my armies, because it thinks they are bad". Only having problems with Lothirs doomstacks, because he brings so much Anti-Large.

I commented on tech, because you (or someone else) wondered why people were fixated on it, and they are fixated on it because it's obviously a mistake. And I elaborated that the mistake could indicate more of Ku'Gath is a mistake, which CA's last post on stuff that needs a fix also says.

Beast_of_Guanyin#8747

Processing#6286 said:

And people say that crying on forum doesn't do ****...

Hehe

Seriously though, this is needed. Even if we discount Ghorst from this, Nurgle is objectively bad faction.

.

This is an opinion. This is subjective.