Dwarf War Balloons

A_Nobody#8442

I've noticed that various more or less exotic potential dwarven entities are often discussed.
I've rarely seen the old dwarf balloons from Man o' War though.

I know that the Gyrocopter variants have largely taken the place of the old war balloons, but I could still see them being used as flying platforms for other weapons.

First of all I think war balloons should be slower than gyrocopters and therefore more likely to have to stay with the troops.

Next I would suggest three and a half variants

1) The standard balloons
It's basically a small group of flying platforms with a few ranged fighters that fire at anything that moves.

1.5) Mount
Put a Potential Engineer Lord on a flying platform so he can shoot from an elevated position, with all the advantages and disadvantages that the higher position offers.

2) Defensive
In a direct duel they bring down every gyro from the sky, but can only attack other flying units.

3) Offensive
Similar to the Sky-junk but built more simply, they are basically flying artelery platforms firing at ground targets from a safe distance.
But should have no defense against opponents below them or other air units.

I don't know much about balancing, but I hope they expand Karaz Ankor's air force without taking too much of the work out of the gyrocopters.

If I have overlooked many discussions on the topic or have written any other nonsense, please let me know.

damon40000#7640

thunderbarge

A_Nobody#8442

Well, I would classify Thunderbarge as airships and thus as the third subspecies because of their size and designation.
Personally, I would see them more as some kind of dread saurian of the dwarves.

lcmiracle#6727

Since we are on the topic of Man O' War War Balloons, in Man O' War they are differentiated from the Gyrocopters with their ability to drop bombs, yes. So essentially, in fantasy battle, their place are taken by the Gyrobomber. And indeed, the War Ballons are slower, and they also have rule that they move as if they were "sailing" and cannot move directly against the wind.

They are armed with 1 gatling cannon instead of 2 for the Gyrocopters, so their main use in Man O' War is anti-ship whereas Gyros are for aerial interception -- though both can strafe with gatling fire against ships.

In the 1st edition roleplay book Dwarfs: Stone & Steel, it is kinda capable of moving against the wind?
Man O' War did actually follow the "dropping bombers from higher than the gyrocopters" bit since in Man O' War, fluff states the War Ballons can ascendent and descent by altering the amount of hydrogen in the gasbag.

But regardless, the main advantage of the War Balloon, that being they have a longer operating range, is not representable in either TT nor Man O' War since there's no operational turn limit for any air units. Also the flying higher part -- I mean, what's that gonna do? Make it untargetable?

In Dreadfleet, the Deadnough made by Red Brokk Gunnarsson, the Grimnir's Thunder, has a dirigible hanger with room for two. They are ostensibly for scouting purposes only and has one broadside gun battery each. Though it's impossible to say if they are faster than gyrocopters in Dreadfleet or not, since, ya know, they don't have gyros in Dreadfleet

These are more like the Thunderbarges though.

What am I saying? Well, I don't war balloons are such a hot idea -- it's filled with hydrogen!

Still, I'm not getting the impression that they are good at anything now. They are slower, and they are unarmoured. They still possess the role of a good aerial reconnaissance unit in the lore because they can stay in the air longer but that's about it. The dwarfs simply has better suited aerial unit for ground strikes dude to gyrobomber. And I can't imagine why War Ballon will be able to take out a squad of gyros either -- there's a balloon, shoot it.

mecanojavi99#6562

War balloons just feel like a very early concept of Thunderbarges and Gyrobombers, something that was just abandoned in favour of its modern interpretations, I can't say that I'll miss them.

dogoska#1535

Kinda odd that the ultra advanced ancient race has less mechanical techs than the undead and even the Empire (steam tank).

mecanojavi99#6562

dogoska#1535 said:

Kinda odd that the ultra advanced ancient race has less mechanical techs than the undead and even the Empire (steam tank).

How many helicopters does the Empire have? Trains? Submarines? Battleships? Heck, the Steam Tank wasn't even invented by the Empire and they can't make more.

And what undead Race has better tech than the Dwarfs? The VCoast with their salvaged weapons and rusted artillery? If you mean the Necrofex, there is nothing mechanical about it, it's purely powered by magic, similar to TK constructs.

A_Nobody#8442

dogoska#1535 said:

Kinda odd that the ultra advanced ancient race has less mechanical techs than the undead and even the Empire (steam tank).

Interestingly the dwarves had been given a forerunner of the steam tank as a model very early on, but it never got any rules or lore.

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarf_Juggernaut

D4nz0N1nj4Wr1t3r#6847

Why not? CA have tried it with Cathay.
One with sniper posts, another carrying cannons, another more with flame throwers...

Captain_Rex#1635

I always wanted them but after seeing how mediocre Sky Balloons are, I don’t really see what they would add. I would never say no to more content tho.

Bobsyourankle#7897

Providing they are full of hydrogen, I agree.

See those collapse in a burning mass on the battlefield would be great!

Red_Dox#2328

In regards of War balloons, I am not sure it fits the current dwarf theme. Especially when GW in 8th edition went Gyrobomber. Could CA go for it, yes. Since Cathay has some around, the greedy dwarf rats could steal the basic animation skeleton here and refit it for their purposes. But especially while Cathay has them now, it would feel a bit weird if Dwarfs would also now have to dig them out like scrap rats. Dwarfs certainly need a new DLC with new units, since they got nothing much since game#1. So "copying" the Cathay balloons now might work to save some budget for CA, but would feel a bit cheap overall. On the other hand, the CoC DLC sold probably well enough so who am i to complain about "feeling cheap" DLCs without much new original units.

Imo Dwarfs rather should focus on their Zeppelins. Be it the "small ones", known as Thunderbarges, or the big ones like the Spirit of Grungni.

Of course the big ones, might be too big for TWW scale

so the whole Zeppelin thing is facing own problems. And CA/GW had to agree on a design and map the weapons/abilities out.


We have so far also not heard/seen much for Dwarfs in The Old World. Maybe some new stuff might pile up from there, as it did for example with the Kislev Ice Guard.

A_Nobody#8442 said:

dogoska#1535 said:

Kinda odd that the ultra advanced ancient race has less mechanical techs than the undead and even the Empire (steam tank).

Interestingly the dwarves had been given a forerunner of the steam tank as a model very early on, but it never got any rules or lore.

https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Dwarf_Juggernaut

On that note had the Chaos Dwarfs also a "juggernaut" which had a miniature but seemingly no rules.
https://warhammerfantasy.fandom.com/wiki/Chaos_Dwarf_Juggernaut
https://nico-realmsofchaos.blogspot.com/2013/02/chaos-dwarf-juggernaut.html

In case of steam engines, the 6th edition Generals Compendium had the "Baggage train" and showcased a Dwarf version.

Of course that is not a standard thing then, the later showcase pages also had a rather normal horse drawn version.

Probably more in spirit for Dwarf delivery services.


-----Red Dox

dogoska#1535

mecanojavi99#6562 said:

dogoska#1535 said:

Kinda odd that the ultra advanced ancient race has less mechanical techs than the undead and even the Empire (steam tank).

How many helicopters does the Empire have? Trains? Submarines? Battleships? Heck, the Steam Tank wasn't even invented by the Empire and they can't make more.

And what undead Race has better tech than the Dwarfs? The VCoast with their salvaged weapons and rusted artillery? If you mean the Necrofex, there is nothing mechanical about it, it's purely powered by magic, similar to TK constructs.

I fail to see why you are mad when my point stands that if dawi are different other fantasy dwarves that use animals for warfare, they should have some impressive tech for warfare (20th centruy or plus) but none of it is in the game.

Also kinda weird considering getting mad over it as all it takes for the empire or mankind to surpass the dawi is an industrial revolution which can't be archieved because GW unleashed the "end times"

Rheingold#6691

Thunderbarge absolutely yes, balloons no... Not sure how many dlc's the dawi will get, but expect only the one. Would prefer other units to go with the barge rather than a "reskin" cathay balloon.
It also won't do much for the roster - they already have gyros and the barge will presumably do the same thing as the balloons just better.

SeanJeanquoi#3490

@Red_Dox#2328

Of course that is not a standard thing then, the later showcase pages also had a rather normal horse drawn version.

I'm almost certain the latter image isn't a baggage train, its actually a Bugman's Ale Cart, which is a mount option that started as an old Citadel Mini in 1987:

White Dwarf #96 (December 1987) pg 95 first advert:

Bugman's Cart 1988 catalog entry:

Citadel Mini's Red catalog 1991:

White Dwarf #298 (October 2004) Bugman's Lament pt 1:

Dwarfs 2005 Collectors guide, pg 43-44:

What did you say the source of that image I quoted was from?

Red_Dox#2328

@SeanJeanquoi#3490

Definitly converted with the Bugmans cart in mind, which still does look more in spirit then making a mechanical steam tank driven baggage train. Even if that is also possible for the dwarfs. While he used the Bugman driver, the cart, horse, barrel and extra dwarf on the back are clearly new

Source is the Generals Compendium form 6th edition.


------Red Dox

lcmiracle#6727

That ale cart is probably a conversion since none of the below wagons match its exact profile
http://www.sodemons.com/rhtransport/index.htm
As for Bugman's Ale cart, it functioned as a standard bearer that also gives buffs.
In the "Lament" scenarios they were a victory condition

Dwarfs do use ponies and such to pull their wares through mount passes, but not as a weapons platform. As seem with the Skull Pass box set, what with their pony drawn wagons.

From Boardgamegeeks
In that starter box set, they are only victory conditions (since the goal is to protect the wagon train)

Clearly Dwarfs uses some sort of animal-drawn vehicle to haul their wares outside the mountains. As seeing with the tale of Kadrin Redmane that they used mule trains.

WD# 283 page 12

The steam engine was something the Dwarfs "only" invented in 1022 IC, according to Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay Stone & Steel, and Bugman, as a brewer and not an engineer -- not to mention also an Empire expatriate dwarf -- won't have access to it.

Ben1990#8909

Dawi should get everything they still have in lore.
War Balloons are excellent as a cheaper alternative to the Thunderbarge before you get the latter. And would still be widely used due to the fact that the Thunderbarge would be hard-capped due to its sheer power and durability.

LegendaryArticuno#9965

Ben1990#8909 said:

Thunderbarge would be hard-capped due to its sheer power and durability.

Sisters of Avelorn would shoot down a Thunderbarge in mere moments. They already can kill a Dread Saurian easily.

Red_Dox#2328

Oh, keyword "Dwarf steam engines":

Source: Extended Rulebook 8th edition

Maybe something more for Kraka Drak, if the Norse Dwarfs should be a own thing, but still Dwarf stuff.

------Red Dox

Ben1990#8909

LegendaryArticuno#9965 said:

Ben1990#8909 said:

Thunderbarge would be hard-capped due to its sheer power and durability.

Sisters of Avelorn would shoot down a Thunderbarge in mere moments. They already can kill a Dread Saurian easily.

You saw its stats? It's gamebreaker levels.
On the other hand I don't want it to be nerfed.
In case of the Dread Saurian they should buff it by presenting the unique upgrades it had in the Monstrous Arcanum.

Ben1990#8909

Red_Dox#2328 said:

Oh, keyword "Dwarf steam engines":

Source: Extended Rulebook 8th edition

Maybe something more for Kraka Drak, if the Norse Dwarfs should be a own thing, but still Dwarf stuff.

------Red Dox

Nice use of Greenskins.
On the other hand I am conflicted over Kraka Drak going from isolated Dwarfs into becoming closer to mainline Dwarfs.

Picking Bones#8601

I want it to have a summoning skill that additionally summons a helicopter team.

lcmiracle#6727

Ben1990#8909 said:

Red_Dox#2328 said:

Oh, keyword "Dwarf steam engines":

Source: Extended Rulebook 8th edition

Maybe something more for Kraka Drak, if the Norse Dwarfs should be a own thing, but still Dwarf stuff.

------Red Dox

Nice use of Greenskins.
On the other hand I am conflicted over Kraka Drak going from isolated Dwarfs into becoming closer to mainline Dwarfs.

Well, I figure this "recent years" might be within one century, then this would be post Valmir Aesling's slaughtering of Karak/Kraka Drak (his attack is still canon in 8th edition Warriors of Chaos army book btw). In the Warhammer Fantasy Roleplay 4th edition Sea of Claws supplement, it is stated that Kraka Ravnesvake was now the leading hold in the region, and they started very slowly repopulating Karak Drak with refugees who fled the hold during Valmir's attack. Thorgrim met the Norse Dwarfs during the Great War as soon in 8th edition Dwarfs army book (in the chapter talking about the Great War and its aftermath), so there must have been some degree of technology trading inbetween afterwards.

For what it's worth, Sea of Claw states the Norse Dwarfs remain independent from Karaz Ankor, but just as they did in 1st edition Stone & Steel, they have had knowledge of their cousins to the south via trade (the Ungruvalk goes into the Sea of Claws, not Sea of Chaos which is the part north of Norsca, so they can trade with human beans like Kislev). And they also managed to have some contact with Karak Vlag before it was taken into the Realm of Chaos.

I mean, their ships got cannons in Sea of Claws from trade with the Vlagians. It's not too surprising if they too acquired steam engines somehow after their contact with Thorgrim. Also, iRRC, in the 7th edition WoC army book War in the Mountains tale, the Drakkian King tried sending out Gyrocopters to send for aid before they were intercepted by a Khorne Daemon Prince, so clearly they had steam engines of some type.