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Chrace is a mountainous region, full of hills and forests, but it doesn't stop Chracians from getting their chariots pulled by lions. There is also Tiranoc with its charioteer tradition. Elves do what Elves do.
And Naggaroth has lots of forests too any yet, lots of chariots. The Empire is quite wooded also, yet Grom The Paunch made a path of destruction through it with chariots and pump wagons.
To be fair, Grom rampaged through the Southern Empire. Mostly Wissenland. The name of the province is based on the German word “Wiese” which means Meadow.
The province is mostly hilly Grassland without many forests.
Meadow Chariots were, are, and will continue to be a terrible idea. They should never be implemented.
Why?
There are a few reasons.
Chariots in woodlands just don't make sense. Like, they physically could not function in densely wooded environments with uneven terrain riven by roots. These things don't have suspension. There's no reason to use a chariot if you're fighting in a forest, and little reason for forest dwellers to ever make chariots in the first place.
It doesn't serve any tactical purpose in a Wood Elf army. They already have fast shock cavalry. They already have skirmish cavalry. They already have missile cavalry. Everything you'd want a chariot for is already done by a more sensible unit.
The old Meadow Chariot model just looks really dumb.
1. Meadow Chariots per lore magically shift the forest out of their course. Also, there are areas in and around Athel Loren that aren't actually forest. 2. Glade Riders are a useful unit but having the same kind of lethality through a chariot that could have the potential of surviving melee can be a useful thing to have for the Wood Elves. 3. All the older models look dumb. High Elven Silverhelms don't ride on horses covered in sheets for a reason.
1) That... okay, I'd never heard that lore before, but having heard it, it makes even more sense that this unit was dropped from the roster. The quintessential aspect of wood elf magic was Tree Singing, so much so that it was the only spell carried forward from the Lore of Athel Loren when it was quietly dropped in 8th edition. The ability to alter the terrain was one of their biggest tactical strengths and something that made their magic unique... and they just tossed that onto chariots so the wheels wouldn't get gunked up by roots or the carriage get caught between trees?
2) Here we're getting into faction design. A good faction is defined just as much by what it does not have as by what it does, and wood elves are all about fast, light cavalry. Even their elites hold to this; Great Stag Knights have terrible armor but amazing speed and charge, and Sisters of Thorn are one of the only high tier missile cavalry in the game. Tankiness is contrary to the wood elf design, feel, and military doctrine.
3) Okay, I'll give you this one. Holy hell do the old Silver Helms look terrible.
4) RE; Cavaroc: One tenth of Athel Loren can be described as 'not densely forested'. It's still a hodgepoge of meadows and woodland, which isn't ideal for chariots. More tellingly, it's also the center of the wood elves' horse-riding tradition. And they specifically breed and train these horses to perform well in forested environments, because that's where they fight more often than not. Generally, if you have a good horse-riding tradition, you don't also have a charioteer tradition, because one of those is much better than the other.
Chrace is a mountainous region, full of hills and forests, but it doesn't stop Chracians from getting their chariots pulled by lions. There is also Tiranoc with its charioteer tradition. Elves do what Elves do.
To be honest GW has an extreme chariot fetish. Which yeah, they are cool. But also very ineffitient compared to regular cavalary. Indeed they were primarly a thing when horsebreeds were to weak to carry a human. IIRC the romans were dumbfounded that the british celts still used them.
For a cavalary soldier you need a man and a horse to carry him. For a chariot you need a driver, a fighter and/or a bowmen, likley two or more horses and someone who build you the chariot itself. Which then only works on certain terrain.
And indeed chariots shouldn't be a thing for allmost all factions. Athel Loren, mountainous Chrace and forested Naggaroth are horrible places for chariots, etc.
And chariots are very costly. You need expert craftsmen knowing their skill well to make them. This is especially true for ramshackle ones made from trash. You need a lot more skill and insight to turn random trash into a working chariot than specially crafted pieces. Which goes for both Greenskins and Beastmen. Especially for beastmen this is weird, due to the home forests, and their general attitude against building stuff. People were annoyed by them using ladders and siege towers but chariots are ok? Still as the chariots prove beastmen are superior craftsmen.
Of course warhammer runs on a rule of cool. And yes chariots are awesome.
In real life, cultures stop using chariots for warfare the instant they have horses strong enough to carry a warrior in full battle gear. Chariots are just worse than actual cavalry; they have so many extra points of failure, are less mobile, slower, and are more costly.
In Warhammer fantasy, the rules are little more nuanced.
1) Does a faction have animals that would be great for war, but which they can't ride? Then strapping them to a chariot makes sense. Examples; White Lion Chariots of Chrace, Beastmen Razorgor Chariots.
2) Does a faction have an animal that they can ride, but which they have good reasons not to ride? If so, strapping them to a chariot makes sense, as in case one. Examples are the Cold One Chariots of the Dark Elves (riding one of those requires the rider to drink a potion that robs them of the ability to feel anything. The chariots let dark elves bring horrible dinosaurs to battle while still having hedonism) and Greenskin Chariots (it lessens the liklihood of their wolves and pigs killing and eating them).
3) Does a faction have weapons that are too large, heavy, or cumbersome to be used without a heavy platform? Examples are the Dark Elf Scourgerunner Chariot (which has a mounted harpoon gun on the tabletop) and the Ogre Iron Blaster, which blurs the line between a chariot and artillery piece.
4) Does a faction predate a cavalry tradition? Nehekara, the oldest human nation, used chariots extensively, likely because they reached their peak before achieving horse-riding technology. They have skeletal cavalry, but those are noted to be from desert tribes they impressed. Tiranoc is the other stand out, who lived in an open plain and never developed a cavalry tradition on par with Ellyrion, Caledor, or even the Silver Helms other kingdoms had, and so likely clung to their old chariots long after they stopped being a good idea, entirely out of pride.
Note that every single chariot mentioned here is terrible for forest use. It's the same reason we don't see mountain chariots.
Chrace is a mountainous region, full of hills and forests, but it doesn't stop Chracians from getting their chariots pulled by lions. There is also Tiranoc with its charioteer tradition. Elves do what Elves do.
And Naggaroth has lots of forests too any yet, lots of chariots. The Empire is quite wooded also, yet Grom The Paunch made a path of destruction through it with chariots and pump wagons.
Yes, not to mention that the Asrai fly on their eagles inside the forests. No matter how tall the trees are, under the normal circumstances, it would most likely lead to an impalement of one kind or another.
But nothing is normal about the Elves or their steeds. It's a magical race capable of supernal dexterity, agility and reflexes, and their mounts are special in their own ways. Driving a chariot through the woods, not to mention meadows, shouldn't be a problem for them.
Meadow Chariots were, are, and will continue to be a terrible idea. They should never be implemented.
Why?
There are a few reasons.
Chariots in woodlands just don't make sense. Like, they physically could not function in densely wooded environments with uneven terrain riven by roots. These things don't have suspension. There's no reason to use a chariot if you're fighting in a forest, and little reason for forest dwellers to ever make chariots in the first place.
It doesn't serve any tactical purpose in a Wood Elf army. They already have fast shock cavalry. They already have skirmish cavalry. They already have missile cavalry. Everything you'd want a chariot for is already done by a more sensible unit.
The old Meadow Chariot model just looks really dumb.
1. Meadow Chariots per lore magically shift the forest out of their course. Also, there are areas in and around Athel Loren that aren't actually forest. 2. Glade Riders are a useful unit but having the same kind of lethality through a chariot that could have the potential of surviving melee can be a useful thing to have for the Wood Elves. 3. All the older models look dumb. High Elven Silverhelms don't ride on horses covered in sheets for a reason.
1) That... okay, I'd never heard that lore before, but having heard it, it makes even more sense that this unit was dropped from the roster. The quintessential aspect of wood elf magic was Tree Singing, so much so that it was the only spell carried forward from the Lore of Athel Loren when it was quietly dropped in 8th edition. The ability to alter the terrain was one of their biggest tactical strengths and something that made their magic unique... and they just tossed that onto chariots so the wheels wouldn't get gunked up by roots or the carriage get caught between trees?
2) Here we're getting into faction design. A good faction is defined just as much by what it does not have as by what it does, and wood elves are all about fast, light cavalry. Even their elites hold to this; Great Stag Knights have terrible armor but amazing speed and charge, and Sisters of Thorn are one of the only high tier missile cavalry in the game. Tankiness is contrary to the wood elf design, feel, and military doctrine.
3) Okay, I'll give you this one. Holy hell do the old Silver Helms look terrible.
4) RE; Cavaroc: One tenth of Athel Loren can be described as 'not densely forested'. It's still a hodgepoge of meadows and woodland, which isn't ideal for chariots. More tellingly, it's also the center of the wood elves' horse-riding tradition. And they specifically breed and train these horses to perform well in forested environments, because that's where they fight more often than not. Generally, if you have a good horse-riding tradition, you don't also have a charioteer tradition, because one of those is much better than the other.
Chrace is a mountainous region, full of hills and forests, but it doesn't stop Chracians from getting their chariots pulled by lions. There is also Tiranoc with its charioteer tradition. Elves do what Elves do.
To be honest GW has an extreme chariot fetish. Which yeah, they are cool. But also very ineffitient compared to regular cavalary. Indeed they were primarly a thing when horsebreeds were to weak to carry a human. IIRC the romans were dumbfounded that the british celts still used them.
For a cavalary soldier you need a man and a horse to carry him. For a chariot you need a driver, a fighter and/or a bowmen, likley two or more horses and someone who build you the chariot itself. Which then only works on certain terrain.
And indeed chariots shouldn't be a thing for allmost all factions. Athel Loren, mountainous Chrace and forested Naggaroth are horrible places for chariots, etc.
And chariots are very costly. You need expert craftsmen knowing their skill well to make them. This is especially true for ramshackle ones made from trash. You need a lot more skill and insight to turn random trash into a working chariot than specially crafted pieces. Which goes for both Greenskins and Beastmen. Especially for beastmen this is weird, due to the home forests, and their general attitude against building stuff. People were annoyed by them using ladders and siege towers but chariots are ok? Still as the chariots prove beastmen are superior craftsmen.
Of course warhammer runs on a rule of cool. And yes chariots are awesome.
In my opinion, this right here is the most important part. Is it cool? Yes? Then cool!
In my opinion, this right here is the most important part. Is it cool? Yes? Then cool!
That's right.
And one more very important point - who are the greatest enemies of the Wood Elves? The Beastmen, who are probably an even more of a forest dweling race than WEs. And what do they have? Chariots, so many chariots...
Comments
The province is mostly hilly Grassland without many forests.
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1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · 1Disagree AgreeFor a cavalary soldier you need a man and a horse to carry him. For a chariot you need a driver, a fighter and/or a bowmen, likley two or more horses and someone who build you the chariot itself. Which then only works on certain terrain.
And indeed chariots shouldn't be a thing for allmost all factions. Athel Loren, mountainous Chrace and forested Naggaroth are horrible places for chariots, etc.
And chariots are very costly. You need expert craftsmen knowing their skill well to make them. This is especially true for ramshackle ones made from trash. You need a lot more skill and insight to turn random trash into a working chariot than specially crafted pieces. Which goes for both Greenskins and Beastmen. Especially for beastmen this is weird, due to the home forests, and their general attitude against building stuff. People were annoyed by them using ladders and siege towers but chariots are ok? Still as the chariots prove beastmen are superior craftsmen.
Of course warhammer runs on a rule of cool. And yes chariots are awesome.
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/288418/filling-the-white-spots-7-made-up-factions-to-fill-out-the-wfb-setting
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4 · Disagree 4AgreeIn Warhammer fantasy, the rules are little more nuanced.
1) Does a faction have animals that would be great for war, but which they can't ride? Then strapping them to a chariot makes sense. Examples; White Lion Chariots of Chrace, Beastmen Razorgor Chariots.
2) Does a faction have an animal that they can ride, but which they have good reasons not to ride? If so, strapping them to a chariot makes sense, as in case one. Examples are the Cold One Chariots of the Dark Elves (riding one of those requires the rider to drink a potion that robs them of the ability to feel anything. The chariots let dark elves bring horrible dinosaurs to battle while still having hedonism) and Greenskin Chariots (it lessens the liklihood of their wolves and pigs killing and eating them).
3) Does a faction have weapons that are too large, heavy, or cumbersome to be used without a heavy platform? Examples are the Dark Elf Scourgerunner Chariot (which has a mounted harpoon gun on the tabletop) and the Ogre Iron Blaster, which blurs the line between a chariot and artillery piece.
4) Does a faction predate a cavalry tradition? Nehekara, the oldest human nation, used chariots extensively, likely because they reached their peak before achieving horse-riding technology. They have skeletal cavalry, but those are noted to be from desert tribes they impressed. Tiranoc is the other stand out, who lived in an open plain and never developed a cavalry tradition on par with Ellyrion, Caledor, or even the Silver Helms other kingdoms had, and so likely clung to their old chariots long after they stopped being a good idea, entirely out of pride.
Note that every single chariot mentioned here is terrible for forest use. It's the same reason we don't see mountain chariots.
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1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
1 · 2Disagree 1AgreeBut nothing is normal about the Elves or their steeds. It's a magical race capable of supernal dexterity, agility and reflexes, and their mounts are special in their own ways. Driving a chariot through the woods, not to mention meadows, shouldn't be a problem for them. In my opinion, this right here is the most important part. Is it cool? Yes? Then cool!
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0 · 2Disagree AgreeAnd one more very important point - who are the greatest enemies of the Wood Elves? The Beastmen, who are probably an even more of a forest dweling race than WEs. And what do they have? Chariots, so many chariots...
- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree