Lore Question: The Gods of Order

Jaxhammer#8130

I just had a quick question because I've been searching on and off for the last few days and can't find anything concrete and official: Where do the Gods of Order come from?

Like, we know Sigmar used to be Just Some Guy, but what about beings like Ursun? Are Order Gods just more chaos gods? Do they come from the Warp or elsewhere?

sykall#1105

The Gods of Order are the opposites of the gods of chaos and express static features of reality. For example were Tzeentch is change, Alluminas is stasis.

Otherwise the nature of gods in general changes in between editions. But the most common feature is that they are born from mortal beliefs and emotions. This is something all gods share, regular gods just as much as chaos gods.

Meaning if enough people belief that Ursun is a deity, such an entity is formed within the aether from where it can aid its followers. Or in Sigmars case the belief in him helped him being elevated into godhood.

Indeed it is possible that broad concepts form deities which has then culture specific aspects, next to faction unique gods like Ursun or Sigmar. Much like how Zeus/Jupiter/Amun were seen as the same gods by ancient authors. For example human Taal and elven Kurnos or human Manann and elven Mathlann are suspicously similiar and likley different faces of the same entity. Because basic reverence for the oceans might or the wild places is shared by these culture.

The chaos gods are special as they are not bound by individual civilizations and their beliefs. Instead they are nurtured by basic emotions and actions. (Even if it not always makes sense)

Jaxhammer#8130

So to put it another way: Both come from the Aethyr, but the Gods of Order come from belief and the Gods of Chaos come from Emotions themselves?

Is that an accurate interpretation?

sykall#1105

Jaxhammer#8130 said:

So to put it another way: Both come from the Aethyr, but the Gods of Order come from belief and the Gods of Chaos come from Emotions themselves?

Is that an accurate interpretation?

I guess you confuse gods of order with regular/civilized gods. The offical gods of order, Solkan, Alluminas and Arianka are beings as alien and dangerous as the chaos gods. For they are the chaos gods extreme opposites. If the chaos gods win, the world would be plugged into a hell of random violence and mutation. If the order gods win, the world would likley be a unchanging Diorama in eternal stasis.

The gods of order were an old concept of GW, which was ignored for decades, before they regained some presence in the new RPG books.

But otherwise your interpretation is correct. In a nutshell a Sigmarite defending his home and family from beastmen nurtures Sigmar via his faith and deeds. But at the same time his violence and aggression nurtures Khorne. As does the aggression of the attacking beastmen.

lcmiracle#6727

i had written this elsewhere on this forum, but still I'd like to expand on this topic further here. The concept of Chaos in Warhammer Fantasy (and Warhammer in general) was heavily influenced by Michael Moorcock's work, in particular those his "Eternal Champion" multiverse.

We see this admission in the first every WFRP dev interview in White Dwarf Magazine #87, released in '87, prior to the official release of first edition WFRP (under the subsection Chaos). The Warhammer symbol of Chaos is straight up that of the Moorcockian symbol of Chaos.


Therefore it is helpful to look at what the Moorcockian concept of Chaos is: a universal constant which is in opposition to the constance of law. The multiverse in moorcock's works is, therefore, in flux between the too extremes. Neither is "good" for they are above such mortal concepts. The multiverse's desirable state is at a balance between the two, for neither is fully "bad", and are necessary for life in moderation.

If we look back into WFRP 1st edition rulebook, where they gave a handful of examples for the Gods of Law, we see that Law and Chaos came into being at the same time.

This is reinforced in WFRP 4th edition

Source: Archives of the Empire Vol. 3 page 52.

When exactly the Gods of Chaos came into being in Warhammer Fantasy universe is up to debate though -- as the Gods of Chaos is born into the warp by mortal emotions, presumably stirred by the explosion of satient life created by the Old Ones (similar to the origin given in 40K). The Warp, of course, has no concept of time; in the materium though, the solidification of the individual Gods likely came sometime after the first creations after the Lizardmen.

It's therefore, probable, that there's some deep-seeded, intrinsic emotions in the mortals that incline to the nature of law and order, that of perfectly organized and uniformal existence. The devs noted in the interview that, the Law Gods are very difficult for mortals to follow, as they demand draconian adherence to their precise strictures, and most mortals turn away from them. Still, some do follow despite its difficulties due to some of it appeals to their desires (notably within the Empire, some Witch Hunters worship Solkan, for the god appeals to their desire to eradicate Chaos.)

Personally I liken the Warhammer universes' Chaos in the context of Moorcock's works, and that they have been heavily off-balanced towards Chaos. In 40K an eternal champion has failed, in fantasy, it seems, they failed to arise.

Belisaurio#7536

sykall#1105 said:

If the chaos gods win, the world would be plugged into a hell of random violence and mutation.

Emm...

Caffynated#2235

lcmiracle#6727 said:

When exactly the Gods of Chaos came into being in Warhammer Fantasy universe is up to debate though -- as the Gods of Chaos is born into the warp by mortal emotions, presumably stirred by the explosion of satient life created by the Old Ones (similar to the origin given in 40K). The Warp, of course, has no concept of time; in the materium though, the solidification of the individual Gods likely came sometime after the first creations after the Lizardmen.

Warhammer Fantasy is the world that the Old Ones escaped to after Chaos ate their world. Chaos existed long before the Old Ones became part of the cycle of destruction.

sykall#1105

Belisaurio#7536 said:

sykall#1105 said:

If the chaos gods win, the world would be plugged into a hell of random violence and mutation.

Emm...

Or destroyed alá end times yeah true. Sorry sometimes I forget they exist

Maedrethnir#1968

sykall#1105 said:

The Gods of Order are the opposites of the gods of chaos and express static features of reality. For example were Tzeentch is change, Alluminas is stasis.

Otherwise the nature of gods in general changes in between editions. But the most common feature is that they are born from mortal beliefs and emotions. This is something all gods share, regular gods just as much as chaos gods.

Meaning if enough people belief that Ursun is a deity, such an entity is formed within the aether from where it can aid its followers. Or in Sigmars case the belief in him helped him being elevated into godhood.

Indeed it is possible that broad concepts form deities which has then culture specific aspects, next to faction unique gods like Ursun or Sigmar. Much like how Zeus/Jupiter/Amun were seen as the same gods by ancient authors. For example human Taal and elven Kurnos or human Manann and elven Mathlann are suspicously similiar and likley different faces of the same entity. Because basic reverence for the oceans might or the wild places is shared by these culture.

The chaos gods are special as they are not bound by individual civilizations and their beliefs. Instead they are nurtured by basic emotions and actions. (Even if it not always makes sense)

As of End Times, this is most likely not true. Lileath is special in this regard.

unepatate#6598

Caffynated#2235 said:

lcmiracle#6727 said:

When exactly the Gods of Chaos came into being in Warhammer Fantasy universe is up to debate though -- as the Gods of Chaos is born into the warp by mortal emotions, presumably stirred by the explosion of satient life created by the Old Ones (similar to the origin given in 40K). The Warp, of course, has no concept of time; in the materium though, the solidification of the individual Gods likely came sometime after the first creations after the Lizardmen.

Warhammer Fantasy is the world that the Old Ones escaped to after Chaos ate their world. Chaos existed long before the Old Ones became part of the cycle of destruction.

source ? pretty sure it's not the case

PhoenixKingMalekith#5710

unepatate#6598 said:

Caffynated#2235 said:

lcmiracle#6727 said:

When exactly the Gods of Chaos came into being in Warhammer Fantasy universe is up to debate though -- as the Gods of Chaos is born into the warp by mortal emotions, presumably stirred by the explosion of satient life created by the Old Ones (similar to the origin given in 40K). The Warp, of course, has no concept of time; in the materium though, the solidification of the individual Gods likely came sometime after the first creations after the Lizardmen.

Warhammer Fantasy is the world that the Old Ones escaped to after Chaos ate their world. Chaos existed long before the Old Ones became part of the cycle of destruction.

source ? pretty sure it's not the case

There is no case since there are too many contradictions.

You have one source where they say the Old Ones created the Warhammer world and most of the races that inhabit it.
Then you have End Times and Age of Sigmar, where you see that Elf Pantheon gods went to our Warhammer world scaping from the destruction brought by Chaos to their homeworld.

So, were elves created by the Old Ones, or by the elf gods? And we know the Old Ones are different entities to the elf gods, or at least that has been the case for most of times.

Open the window to these deep questions will only leave frustration and more questions. The dark truth is there is no consistency in this universe, not in this part at least. I wouldn't invest myself too much into that parts.

PhoenixKingMalekith#5710

https://www.reddit.com/r/totalwar/comments/8n4f91/what_is_the_relationship_between_the_old_ones_and/

This debate in reddit shows some interpretations like my own, but with elves, dwarfs, humans etc already existing before the arrival of the Old Ones.

If that's the case, then the theory about the Warhammer world being part of W40k makes even more sense than ever. A laboratory planet hidden in the Warp where the Old Ones tried to experiment to create the ultimate weapon against Chaos. I never liked this idea, but it's the first one which makes more sense than all the (curiously) official canons. Sigmar, of course, would be one of the lost primarchs, and the elven gods would have some connection with eldar gods.

Caffynated#2235

PhoenixKingMalekith#5710 said:

unepatate#6598 said:

Caffynated#2235 said:

lcmiracle#6727 said:

When exactly the Gods of Chaos came into being in Warhammer Fantasy universe is up to debate though -- as the Gods of Chaos is born into the warp by mortal emotions, presumably stirred by the explosion of satient life created by the Old Ones (similar to the origin given in 40K). The Warp, of course, has no concept of time; in the materium though, the solidification of the individual Gods likely came sometime after the first creations after the Lizardmen.

Warhammer Fantasy is the world that the Old Ones escaped to after Chaos ate their world. Chaos existed long before the Old Ones became part of the cycle of destruction.

source ? pretty sure it's not the case

There is no case since there are too many contradictions.

You have one source where they say the Old Ones created the Warhammer world and most of the races that inhabit it.
Then you have End Times and Age of Sigmar, where you see that Elf Pantheon gods went to our Warhammer world scaping from the destruction brought by Chaos to their homeworld.

So, were elves created by the Old Ones, or by the elf gods? And we know the Old Ones are different entities to the elf gods, or at least that has been the case for most of times.

Open the window to these deep questions will only leave frustration and more questions. The dark truth is there is no consistency in this universe, not in this part at least. I wouldn't invest myself too much into that parts.

You're describing a retcon. New lore is created that replaces the old lore. The old lore then becomes obsolete where it contradicts the new lore. There's no confusion, the old lore is deleted from existence and is no longer part of the setting.

In the final lore of the setting, the elven gods are travelers from a world destroyed by Chaos just like the lizard men Old Ones.

Unlike the Old Ones who fled with the collapse of their gateway and coming of Chaos, the Elven gods made a stand on the world of Warhammer and Lileath plotted to create new gods to move forward and seed the next world.

Belisaurio#7536

PhoenixKingMalekith#5710 said:

but it's the first one which makes some sense among all the (curiously) official canons.

"Official and canon" near Sigmar being a Primarch? Uh?

PhoenixKingMalekith#5710

Belisaurio#7536 said:

PhoenixKingMalekith#5710 said:

but it's the first one which makes some sense among all the (curiously) official canons.

"Official and canon" near Sigmar being a Primarch? Uh?

Well seen. Corrected now.

MalalTheRenegade#5644

There are too many contradicting sources to determine the truth sadly.

My headcanon (based on the source below and on the resemblance between all the Warhammer Pantheons) is that current Gods are Old Ones trapped in the Warp when they tried to escape the Warhammer World during the Great Cataclysm.

And then the Cataclysm came. King Taal rose from His Forest, and with Dark Morr muttering dire portents in His ear, He banished all immortals from the world. But the Cataclysm's architects refused His order. The Crow, the Hound, the Serpent, and the Vulture were jealous of King Taal, and had tried to use the Great Gates to take what was His. They had failed. As the other immortals fled, the Four attacked, bitter and angry with their frustrations. Many died. After countless battles, King Taal was eventually surrounded. There were few still by his side. Ulric the Wolf. Noble Margileo. Just Verena. Sotek the Snake. Manann of the Sea. And Gentle Shallya, tear-stained and afraid. Even Smiling Ranald had fled, and now hid in the Places Between, fearful for the future. Then, just as the Four and their allies arrived for the Final Battle, Flaming Phoenix, whom all had thought dead, returned from atop His Gleaming Pyramid, and He smote about Him. Thus the rebels were pushed behind the Great Gates, and were sealed there forever. But they were restless in their cage, and soon worked to escape.
TRANSLATED FROM THE OBERNARN STONE, NOW HELD IN THE IMPERIAL MUSEUM, ALTDORF

WFRP, 2nd ed.

Also based on this, the four Chaos Gods would also be Old Ones who got corrupted by the Warp and became God-like entities when they were sealed behind the polar gates.

lcmiracle#6727

Well, worth noting that alot of the things in Roleplay books, while not uncanon, are deliberately ambigious because the writers intended for the GM to create their own story. A lot of these backstories are told in-universe, as fables, legends, or hearsays. Everyone, human scholars, dwarfs, elves, even the Old Ones, are unreliable narrators in some way. For one, it makes sense, who can possibly recall something that's probably before their time, and past so many years, clearly? The Slanns suffers from mind fog, the dragons have slumbered and are a shadow of their past shelves, the Daemons, even Khornate ones, are known for their deceitful ways, and who can say how much of the self-sang fables of the Chaos Warriors and Dragon Ogres are earnst? For another, it gives players different directions to guide that campaigns.

And I also believe the nature of the gods are intentionally left vague. Are they gods, are they ascended mortals? Does it matter to you -- the little guy at the entrance to a run-down outpost in the Border Princes? The Mystery is something that can be fun to explore in mini-episodes, like dungeon exploring some ancient cave and find something that can be heretical to the outside world -- you don't know if it's 100% true, but do you want to tell someone this? And who would you tell?

For what's worth, 8th edition the lizardmen army book also confirms the Old Ones did "uplift" primitive species that they deemed acceptable (page 7).


So provided the Elven Loremaster in Tome of Salvation is correct, and the Elven Gods were survivors from another world as per ET, they could have arrived and struck an alliance with the Old Ones. It can be if they were the 40K Eldar gods, then, a problem -- the Eldar gods were nearly all killed during their version of the War in Heaven. Asuryan certainly, Khaine is mostly dead, and only Cegorach (in this case, then, the alter-ego of Loec) and Shallya are complete; then Slaanesh was born during this event -- thus, for all four great gods of Chaos to co-exist in Warhammer Fantasy, the Eldar gods would have been dead. This happened within one Millennia in M.31.

If the events have causality, then in the End Times, Isha died and her essence merged with Alarielle. Is this the same Isha then, who was captured by Nurgle? Did that happen in AoS?

For that matter, a multi-verse solution is equally possible -- the survivors from a previously destroyed universe fled, probably through the warp, to another one. Because the universes are cyclical and share common elements, they found this universe's version of the Old Ones, warn them of Chaos, leading them to uplift lesser races in preparation to fight Chaos (though why, if the Elven Gods knew Chaos fed on sentient species' emotion, would they do this?)

Jaxhammer#8130

sykall#1105 said:

Jaxhammer#8130 said:

So to put it another way: Both come from the Aethyr, but the Gods of Order come from belief and the Gods of Chaos come from Emotions themselves?

Is that an accurate interpretation?

I guess you confuse gods of order with regular/civilized gods. The offical gods of order, Solkan, Alluminas and Arianka are beings as alien and dangerous as the chaos gods. For they are the chaos gods extreme opposites. If the chaos gods win, the world would be plugged into a hell of random violence and mutation. If the order gods win, the world would likley be a unchanging Diorama in eternal stasis.

The gods of order were an old concept of GW, which was ignored for decades, before they regained some presence in the new RPG books.

But otherwise your interpretation is correct. In a nutshell a Sigmarite defending his home and family from beastmen nurtures Sigmar via his faith and deeds. But at the same time his violence and aggression nurtures Khorne. As does the aggression of the attacking beastmen.

I'm not confusing anything. If I recall correctly, those are the Gods of Law, no Order.

The Gods im talking about are beings like Vallaya, Sigmar, Ulrik, Sotek, ect. I know Sigmar was just a Dude, but what about everyone else? That was my question ^^

sykall#1105

Jaxhammer#8130 said:

sykall#1105 said:

Jaxhammer#8130 said:

So to put it another way: Both come from the Aethyr, but the Gods of Order come from belief and the Gods of Chaos come from Emotions themselves?

Is that an accurate interpretation?

I guess you confuse gods of order with regular/civilized gods. The offical gods of order, Solkan, Alluminas and Arianka are beings as alien and dangerous as the chaos gods. For they are the chaos gods extreme opposites. If the chaos gods win, the world would be plugged into a hell of random violence and mutation. If the order gods win, the world would likley be a unchanging Diorama in eternal stasis.

The gods of order were an old concept of GW, which was ignored for decades, before they regained some presence in the new RPG books.

But otherwise your interpretation is correct. In a nutshell a Sigmarite defending his home and family from beastmen nurtures Sigmar via his faith and deeds. But at the same time his violence and aggression nurtures Khorne. As does the aggression of the attacking beastmen.

I'm not confusing anything. If I recall correctly, those are the Gods of Law, no Order.

The Gods im talking about are beings like Vallaya, Sigmar, Ulrik, Sotek, ect. I know Sigmar was just a Dude, but what about everyone else? That was my question ^^

Ah you are correct. These are the Gods of Law, my bad

But otherwise it is mostly as I explained in the other parts of my response. Some gods like Myrmidia and Sigmar were mortals elevated into godhood due to the worship of mortals. Dwarfen ancestor gods may also fit in here, though how they work we do not know. But as dwarfs basicly worship their ancestors, this could have resulted in the apotheosis of the most fervently worshipped ancestors like Valaya, Grugni etc.

Some gods were created by mortal beliefs themselves. Sotek is a prime contender here, because it was heavily implied for Tehehuains cult being responsible for his creation in the first place.
Same for the Horned Rat, which Mazdamundu even calls the collective skaven psychic construct or so in TWW2s final battle.

There are a lot of local gods everywhere born from similar faith, though much less powerful. Like Grandfather Reik, the deification of said river.
The Great Maw could fit in here as well, if its not an alien or else.

Some gods, especially those who have very elemental fields, are likley local faces of greater entities. Again Taal and Kurnos as horned gods of the wild, Manann and Mathlann as very similiar ocean gods, or Morr and Morai-Hag, both death/destiny gods with a fable for crows and prophecy and dreams, are likley the same deity. Because death and various aspects of nature are universal.

But each aspect can act and behave differently according to local beliefs.
And much like greek Ares was a barbarous war god responsible for all the bad stuff of conflict, roman Mars was a prime god of war as well as caretaker of civilization.

For example Ursun and Ulric are both gods of winter, but Ursun appears to care more for Kislevites in general if I go by TWW3, whereas Ulric is more a "help you to do it yourself" protection god.

But the exact origin of most gods is unknown. Human god Rainald was claimed to have been a mortal who swindled godhood from Shaylla. But how when and if this is even true (Rainald is the gods of lies, tricks and thievery after all), noone knows.


----------------

And then of course there are the End Times, which threw the concepts I explained above into disarray by claiming elven gods to be different, not mentioning the human gods much, having Sigmar trapped in the Vortex somehow, having the Maw be an aspect of Gorkamorka and all the other dumb stuff.

Tyrant#1234

All Gods are born/reborn in the warp whether they be of Chaos, of Law or Order Gods.

It's never been made clear how the older Order Pantheon Gods came about, whether they were once mortals reborn in the warp after death like Sigmar and Myrmidia or purely born in the warp without once having been mortal is unknown.

The Chaos Gods and the Gods of Law seen to be of the type that were never mortal.

Guillermidas#6283

My personal guess order gods (human, elf, dorf…) usually is both a combination The Old Ones and faith.

Faith has real power in Warhammer. When too many people believe someone to be a god, it can somehow elevate that being into a higher one. Correct me if I’m wrong, but Sigmar, The Great Maw, Gork and Mork are good examples of this.

But what I mean by the Old Ones? I personally think (and its perfectly fit theory) that most regular “gods” are just servants of the Old ones. Just powerful first gen elves/dwarves/humans… with extra blessings, made to guide their races at their beginning similar to Slanns. And Faith made them much stronger than expected by the Great Plan. But its perfectly okey, even desirable, to have sth like Ulric, Ursun or Kurnous to help their races in a godly way against Chaos.