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So you get double the speed and lore of Hashut and Fire and lose unbreakable on a dwarf lord that is already basically unbreakable.
Astragoth should have much lower melee attack and melee defense and probably WS too.
Heaven forbid a dwarf be weaker than something, even another dwarf. He's a chaos-corrupted high priest with a stone body and mechanical enchantment by what possible logic is that stat block too strong? It's like complaining sigvald has better melee stats that karl franz but their both human.
I have no horse in this race (I like both kinds of dwarf without either being my favorite race) so as an impartial third party, I'll say this:
Grombrindal IS pretty dissapointing for what's supossed to be the vengeful manifestation of an incredibly ancient dwarf demigod. He should indeed be better in a straight-up fight than Astragoth. However I do think that's not an issue with the mobility scooter wizard, but rather with the white dorf himself.
So you get double the speed and lore of Hashut and Fire and lose unbreakable on a dwarf lord that is already basically unbreakable.
Astragoth should have much lower melee attack and melee defense and probably WS too.
Heaven forbid a dwarf be weaker than something, even another dwarf. He's a chaos-corrupted high priest with a stone body and mechanical enchantment by what possible logic is that stat block too strong? It's like complaining sigvald has better melee stats that karl franz but their both human.
The main problem is that you can pretty much bet on Astragoth having a similar, if not lower price than Grombi.
CA has always hated on the dwarf Lords/Heroes for some reason and made them more or less dead weight in any mp setting and even in sp they suck without the Rune of Spite.
Grombrindal is essentially god mode in campaign with his ancestor buffs and blue line as well as being a powerful melee combatant. Despite the self-identification of most dwarf fans, dwarfs are not the apex warrior race they are synergists and a mechanically enhanced chaos-corrupted dwarf with centuries of experience in combat make sense being on par with grombrindal.
Aside from grombindal comparison, It is clear that the more content came out, the more G1 factions lag behind, and this remains true even for those who got a DLC in game 2. Compare Bestigor herd to basically any High tier infantry for example, or centigors with slaneeshy cav.
It was always like that, since CA seem to have no care to balance their units unless they are on a famous roster
For example minotaurs were always bad, but for buffed only when khorne made that clear
Things got even worse in game 3 imho since CA seem to have lost any basic interest in balancing the game, with things that are grossly overpriced or unused by years and completely forgotten
Balanced content>>>> more content
Vampire counts meanwhile are the strongest faction in the game. The issue isn't power creep it's inconsistent balancing.
Beastmen have been passed over a lot (their rework came with bugs which hid their weaknesses) and that's showing in game 3. Meanwhile Nurgle and Kislev are brand new but are arguably weaker than the BM in campaign and multiplayer.
Also the minotaur buff point is off base for a lot of reasons. They weren't terrible they were outcompeted by chaos spawn, khorne minos were bad because they were 1700 on launch not because of any issue with the statline. CA buffing monstrous infantry was a general rebalance with spawn getting nerfed and trolls and minos getting buffed (khorne minos over buffed because of bad patch notes ironically).
Ideally CA will shift some focus to balance now that IE is stable. Prior to 2.0 balance patches had been larger and generally more effective than game 2.
So you get double the speed and lore of Hashut and Fire and lose unbreakable on a dwarf lord that is already basically unbreakable.
Astragoth should have much lower melee attack and melee defense and probably WS too.
Heaven forbid a dwarf be weaker than something, even another dwarf. He's a chaos-corrupted high priest with a stone body and mechanical enchantment by what possible logic is that stat block too strong? It's like complaining sigvald has better melee stats that karl franz but their both human.
Grombrindal is more Sigmar than Karl Franz if you know what I mean.
So you get double the speed and lore of Hashut and Fire and lose unbreakable on a dwarf lord that is already basically unbreakable.
Astragoth should have much lower melee attack and melee defense and probably WS too.
Heaven forbid a dwarf be weaker than something, even another dwarf. He's a chaos-corrupted high priest with a stone body and mechanical enchantment by what possible logic is that stat block too strong? It's like complaining sigvald has better melee stats that karl franz but their both human.
Grombrindal is more Sigmar than Karl Franz if you know what I mean.
No he's not, he's an ancient dwarf king not a god.
Aside from grombindal comparison, It is clear that the more content came out, the more G1 factions lag behind, and this remains true even for those who got a DLC in game 2. Compare Bestigor herd to basically any High tier infantry for example, or centigors with slaneeshy cav.
It was always like that, since CA seem to have no care to balance their units unless they are on a famous roster
For example minotaurs were always bad, but for buffed only when khorne made that clear
Things got even worse in game 3 imho since CA seem to have lost any basic interest in balancing the game, with things that are grossly overpriced or unused by years and completely forgotten
Balanced content>>>> more content
Vampire counts meanwhile are the strongest faction in the game. The issue isn't power creep it's inconsistent balancing.
It was the same years ago when WH2 was released, and it is still the same, but worse. All despite having a blueprint of everything. Implementations are so inconsistent that i have started to think even a 1:1 translation from the books would lead to better gameplay all things considered.
CA gave up on balancing a long time ago. Have you tried an Orion or Taurox campaign recently? It's basically playing with cheats enabled.
Campaign-wise this isn't telling the whole story because Grombrindal has 4 pretty good magic items and Astragoth is going to be lucky if he gets 2 because they just don't do wargear any more.
And for MP a lot of balance can be done with costs.
So you get double the speed and lore of Hashut and Fire and lose unbreakable on a dwarf lord that is already basically unbreakable.
Astragoth should have much lower melee attack and melee defense and probably WS too.
Heaven forbid a dwarf be weaker than something, even another dwarf. He's a chaos-corrupted high priest with a stone body and mechanical enchantment by what possible logic is that stat block too strong? It's like complaining sigvald has better melee stats that karl franz but their both human.
Grombrindal is more Sigmar than Karl Franz if you know what I mean.
No he's not, he's an ancient dwarf king not a god.
Grombrindal is literally vengeful ancestral spirit who came back from dead to protect Dawi.
He's not a mere "king".
Its like saying Nagash is a mere necromancer or Archaon a mere Chaos lord.
Grombrindal IS pretty dissapointing for what's supossed to be the vengeful manifestation of an incredibly ancient dwarf demigod. He should indeed be better in a straight-up fight than Astragoth.
*shrug* Take it up with GW then, because that's how he was in TT. He's slightly better than a normal Dwarf Lord statwise, and he has some good magic items.
"Assassination's a dirty job, but someone's got to do it."
It's possible Astrogath doesn't have any legendary items, at least I didn't catch any glimpse of it in the gameplay video. Characters rarely ever gets legendary items that's not available to them in some editions of TT or rarely, in other lore sources; exceptions are few and usually reserved for invented or characters from none WHFB sources (such as Dreadfleet). Astroagth, along with both characters from that army list, had no unique wargears, only with the ability to take generic ones. His mechsuit and his pertrification status were integrated into his statline, so it may well be he has no legendary items in-game.
In 4-5th edition, the White Dwarf's stats was slightly better than Astrogath's, excepting movement and spellcasting. Without his items, he cost slightly above half that of Astrogath's, with them, he's 9% costlier. And without his items, Astrogath can likely beat him, since his mechsuit is a natural 3+ armour save. Later editions reduced Gromb's strength and initiative. What really set Grombrindal apart are the unique ancestral items he carries White Dwarf 348 updated these items for 7th edition and made the armour a 1+/4++ instead, and generally streamline the other items. But it remains to be seem if a full-kitted Gromb' will handily beat down Astrogath in TWW.
Aside from grombindal comparison, It is clear that the more content came out, the more G1 factions lag behind, and this remains true even for those who got a DLC in game 2. Compare Bestigor herd to basically any High tier infantry for example, or centigors with slaneeshy cav.
It was always like that, since CA seem to have no care to balance their units unless they are on a famous roster
For example minotaurs were always bad, but for buffed only when khorne made that clear
Things got even worse in game 3 imho since CA seem to have lost any basic interest in balancing the game, with things that are grossly overpriced or unused by years and completely forgotten
Balanced content>>>> more content
In that regard, small details balance disappeared once CA decided that WH3 multiplayer was no longer important to them.
The small balance changes like adding a couple MA to a unit have disappeared.
It's possible Astrogath doesn't have any legendary items, at least I didn't catch any glimpse of it in the gameplay video. Characters rarely ever gets legendary items that's not available to them in some editions of TT or rarely, in other lore sources; exceptions are few and usually reserved for invented or characters from none WHFB sources (such as Dreadfleet). Astroagth, along with both characters from that army list, had no unique wargears, only with the ability to take generic ones. His mechsuit and his pertrification status were integrated into his statline, so it may well be he has no legendary items in-game.
In 4-5th edition, the White Dwarf's stats was slightly better than Astrogath's, excepting movement and spellcasting. Without his items, he cost slightly above half that of Astrogath's, with them, he's 9% costlier. And without his items, Astrogath can likely beat him, since his mechsuit is a natural 3+ armour save. Later editions reduced Gromb's strength and initiative. What really set Grombrindal apart are the unique ancestral items he carries White Dwarf 348 updated these items for 7th edition and made the armour a 1+/4++ instead, and generally streamline the other items. But it remains to be seem if a full-kitted Gromb' will handily beat down Astrogath in TWW.
He has a purple item hammer you see the item in the last video
As someone who hadn't played game III until the free weekend, I was shocked to see that Lords were only getting one or two purple items each whilst playing around. Unique items (and their quests) are a key part of what makes a Lord unique, in my opinion.
"Back in the sweatshop in Ulthuan, we found an Elf, we tossed it right in the soup. Those hungry bastards ate Elf soup every day. What's the worst thing that could happen? Some little snotling chokes on a hairball and dies? So then you toss him in the soup. I was making money hand over foot, literally. Some gobbo lost a hand or a foot, I'd toss it in the soup" - Grom
So you get double the speed and lore of Hashut and Fire and lose unbreakable on a dwarf lord that is already basically unbreakable.
Astragoth should have much lower melee attack and melee defense and probably WS too.
You can't judge the balance of a unit without knowing its cost. Those same stats could be massively underpowered or overpowered. If it costs 2000 fully decked then maybe OP but if its costs 4500 to 5000 fully decked out then underpowered.
The game should be balanced around single-player, not multi-player.
"Back in the sweatshop in Ulthuan, we found an Elf, we tossed it right in the soup. Those hungry bastards ate Elf soup every day. What's the worst thing that could happen? Some little snotling chokes on a hairball and dies? So then you toss him in the soup. I was making money hand over foot, literally. Some gobbo lost a hand or a foot, I'd toss it in the soup" - Grom
The game should be balanced around single-player, not multi-player.
But is it being balanced by those who want to be overpowered or those who want a monster mash?
Well, we'll never get to a point where everything is perfectly balanced against everything else, but I do think that there needs to be a huge rebalancing of various lords and their items, effects etc.
"Back in the sweatshop in Ulthuan, we found an Elf, we tossed it right in the soup. Those hungry bastards ate Elf soup every day. What's the worst thing that could happen? Some little snotling chokes on a hairball and dies? So then you toss him in the soup. I was making money hand over foot, literally. Some gobbo lost a hand or a foot, I'd toss it in the soup" - Grom
But is it being balanced by those who want to be overpowered or those who want a monster mash?
That's what difficulty settings are for.
You'd think that but I've seen enough people equate the whole silly thing of SP vs MP balance as SP being player is strong and nothing can touch it (even on this forum though I've been away for a while with PC issues so I have no idea if those people are still around). (just generally more of my distrust of the whole Balance issue)
So...the Light's vaunted justice has finally arrived. Shall I lay down Frostmourne and throw myself at your mercy, Fordring?
The game should be balanced around single-player, not multi-player.
This is such a bizarre sentiment. It's entirely possible to do both and often changes which are good for one are good for the other when looking at unit base stats. CA wants asymmetric balance in single player and multiplayer which means relevant unit balance is always important to consider.
The games are based around stacking numbers absurdly high, so CA doesn't actually have to think about balance.
'Balance' as I define it, is when a game designer has a design purpose for something, and it works when it's supposed to work and fails when it's supposed to fail. The more something achieves that, the more 'balanced' it is.
The fact it's actually impossible to tell what is and isn't balanced, only what is objectively better overall, suggests CA isn't bothered. You pick any race, and what you are looking for is the most cost-efficient doom-stack, if you intend to play optimally. No matter what race, that optimal unit will want as many of the following features available: single-entity, AoE damaged, high health, ranged capability, fast move-speed, spell-casting. The more of those it has, the more upsides and less downsides. There is no coherent design blueprint.
The idea of something being particularly strong at something, with a substantial weakness requiring tactics to both utilise or overcome it, just doesn't exist here.
So as far as CA is concerned, power-creeping is balancing the game.
The games are based around stacking numbers absurdly high, so CA doesn't actually have to think about balance.
'Balance' as I define it, is when a game designer has a design purpose for something, and it works when it's supposed to work and fails when it's supposed to fail. The more something achieves that, the more 'balanced' it is.
The fact it's actually impossible to tell what is and isn't balanced, only what is objectively better overall, suggests CA isn't bothered. You pick any race, and what you are looking for is the most cost-efficient doom-stack, if you intend to play optimally. No matter what race, that optimal unit will want as many of the following features available: single-entity, AoE damaged, high health, ranged capability, fast move-speed, spell-casting. The more of those it has, the more upsides and less downsides. There is no coherent design blueprint.
The idea of something being particularly strong at something, with a substantial weakness requiring tactics to both utilise or overcome it, just doesn't exist here.
So as far as CA is concerned, power-creeping is balancing the game.
Man, I don’t know how TWW hurt you, but you have the largest chip on your shoulder that I have seen on these forums. Most of the time I have no idea what you’re rambling about.
In this case you are mostly wrong about the current situation. The meta is using a bunch of low tier units. Lizardmen can get by with a bunch of Saurus. The ranged meta and the SEM meta went away with WH3 thanks to ai melee cheats and supply lines going away.
Even still, balance isn’t the biggest issue the game faces. If multiplayer is anything to go by, most races are pretty balanced before techs, items, and late game units make it to the forefront. When you don’t purposefully try to cheese AI the game becomes moderately challenging across most races.
The big issues are all structural with sieges, autoresolve, pathing, and settlements not being where they are supposed to be. The content is all there, it just needs to be fixed.
Despite all this the game continues to be fun, and I still enjoy it semi-regularly.
Grombrindal IS pretty dissapointing for what's supossed to be the vengeful manifestation of an incredibly ancient dwarf demigod. He should indeed be better in a straight-up fight than Astragoth.
*shrug* Take it up with GW then, because that's how he was in TT. He's slightly better than a normal Dwarf Lord statwise, and he has some good magic items.
*shrug* this is the same for every other legendary lord then? They have slightly better stats than generic variants but the real difference is their magical items which come pre-equipped and can't be taken off. See what i mean?
Hell you could build even better generic characters price/performance wise with customization.
Astragoth also originally has melee stats of Thorek, but somehow pulled a way better lottery in TW.
The games are based around stacking numbers absurdly high, so CA doesn't actually have to think about balance.
'Balance' as I define it, is when a game designer has a design purpose for something, and it works when it's supposed to work and fails when it's supposed to fail. The more something achieves that, the more 'balanced' it is.
The fact it's actually impossible to tell what is and isn't balanced, only what is objectively better overall, suggests CA isn't bothered. You pick any race, and what you are looking for is the most cost-efficient doom-stack, if you intend to play optimally. No matter what race, that optimal unit will want as many of the following features available: single-entity, AoE damaged, high health, ranged capability, fast move-speed, spell-casting. The more of those it has, the more upsides and less downsides. There is no coherent design blueprint.
The idea of something being particularly strong at something, with a substantial weakness requiring tactics to both utilise or overcome it, just doesn't exist here.
So as far as CA is concerned, power-creeping is balancing the game.
In this case you are mostly wrong about the current situation. The meta is using a bunch of low tier units. Lizardmen can get by with a bunch of Saurus. The ranged meta and the SEM meta went away with WH3 thanks to ai melee cheats and supply lines going away.
The meta for what? You seem focused on multiplayer here.
Also, I won't be responding to personal commentary.
Comments
Grombrindal IS pretty dissapointing for what's supossed to be the vengeful manifestation of an incredibly ancient dwarf demigod. He should indeed be better in a straight-up fight than Astragoth. However I do think that's not an issue with the mobility scooter wizard, but rather with the white dorf himself.
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1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
1 · 4Disagree 1AgreeBeastmen have been passed over a lot (their rework came with bugs which hid their weaknesses) and that's showing in game 3. Meanwhile Nurgle and Kislev are brand new but are arguably weaker than the BM in campaign and multiplayer.
Also the minotaur buff point is off base for a lot of reasons. They weren't terrible they were outcompeted by chaos spawn, khorne minos were bad because they were 1700 on launch not because of any issue with the statline. CA buffing monstrous infantry was a general rebalance with spawn getting nerfed and trolls and minos getting buffed (khorne minos over buffed because of bad patch notes ironically).
Ideally CA will shift some focus to balance now that IE is stable. Prior to 2.0 balance patches had been larger and generally more effective than game 2.
- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
3 · Disagree 3Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · 5Disagree Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1AgreeAnd for MP a lot of balance can be done with costs.
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0 · 2Disagree AgreeHe's not a mere "king".
Its like saying Nagash is a mere necromancer or Archaon a mere Chaos lord.
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3 · 1Disagree 3Agree- Report
0 · 2Disagree AgreeCharacters rarely ever gets legendary items that's not available to them in some editions of TT or rarely, in other lore sources; exceptions are few and usually reserved for invented or characters from none WHFB sources (such as Dreadfleet). Astroagth, along with both characters from that army list, had no unique wargears, only with the ability to take generic ones. His mechsuit and his pertrification status were integrated into his statline, so it may well be he has no legendary items in-game.
In 4-5th edition, the White Dwarf's stats was slightly better than Astrogath's, excepting movement and spellcasting. Without his items, he cost slightly above half that of Astrogath's, with them, he's 9% costlier. And without his items, Astrogath can likely beat him, since his mechsuit is a natural 3+ armour save.
Later editions reduced Gromb's strength and initiative.
What really set Grombrindal apart are the unique ancestral items he carries
White Dwarf 348 updated these items for 7th edition and made the armour a 1+/4++ instead, and generally streamline the other items. But it remains to be seem if a full-kitted Gromb' will handily beat down Astrogath in TWW.
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3 · Disagree 3AgreeCertain LLs are not as powerful as others.
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0 · 2Disagree AgreeThe small balance changes like adding a couple MA to a unit have disappeared.
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0 · 2Disagree Agree- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
1 · 2Disagree 1Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
4 · 3Disagree 4Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
4 · 2Disagree 4Agree- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1Agree'Balance' as I define it, is when a game designer has a design purpose for something, and it works when it's supposed to work and fails when it's supposed to fail. The more something achieves that, the more 'balanced' it is.
The fact it's actually impossible to tell what is and isn't balanced, only what is objectively better overall, suggests CA isn't bothered. You pick any race, and what you are looking for is the most cost-efficient doom-stack, if you intend to play optimally. No matter what race, that optimal unit will want as many of the following features available: single-entity, AoE damaged, high health, ranged capability, fast move-speed, spell-casting. The more of those it has, the more upsides and less downsides. There is no coherent design blueprint.
The idea of something being particularly strong at something, with a substantial weakness requiring tactics to both utilise or overcome it, just doesn't exist here.
So as far as CA is concerned, power-creeping is balancing the game.
- Report
1 · 3Disagree 1AgreeIn this case you are mostly wrong about the current situation. The meta is using a bunch of low tier units. Lizardmen can get by with a bunch of Saurus. The ranged meta and the SEM meta went away with WH3 thanks to ai melee cheats and supply lines going away.
Even still, balance isn’t the biggest issue the game faces. If multiplayer is anything to go by, most races are pretty balanced before techs, items, and late game units make it to the forefront. When you don’t purposefully try to cheese AI the game becomes moderately challenging across most races.
The big issues are all structural with sieges, autoresolve, pathing, and settlements not being where they are supposed to be. The content is all there, it just needs to be fixed.
Despite all this the game continues to be fun, and I still enjoy it semi-regularly.
- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1AgreeHell you could build even better generic characters price/performance wise with customization.
Astragoth also originally has melee stats of Thorek, but somehow pulled a way better lottery in TW.
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0 · Disagree AgreeAlso, I won't be responding to personal commentary.
- Report
0 · 3Disagree Agree