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The Power of Three - Observations About Future Campaign Packs
#324448
Registered Users Posts: 2,157
So the Chaos Dwarfs have now been announced, and one interesting tidbit of news is this paragraph down below.
One thing, that I think is great news, is the implicit confirmation that we are getting more new races in the future. "Future releases" in plural, to me, implies that they've already planned out this format for at least two more packs. Given Warhammer 3's long content cycle ("many years to come") this is definitely good news. I was a doomer before this, I thought there was a good chance that there wouldn't be any new races after Chaos Dwarfs. But now I'm much more optimistic that we'll see more campaign packs in our future.
The other piece of information is the reduction in the number of LLs. The switch from 4 Legendary Lords to 3 is definitely disappointing from a content perspective, and I can't doubt that it was done forcost-saving purposes. Looking at it that way, I definitely can't approve, especially when coupled with the increase in price. This topic has been discussed a lot in the last week, but it did make me realize something that hadn't occurred to me before. The remaining, potential DLC races for Warhammer 3 all have basically one thing in common, and that is that they are all suited to having 3 Legendary Lords.
Think about it - in most of the debates about what Legendary Lords a campaign pack would get, there have usually been three "obvious choices", and then the fourth spot has been up for debate. Let's look at it on a case by case basis.
Chaos Dwarfs
If you were around for the years and years of Chaos Dwarf-centered speculation, you probably remember the almost monthly threads titled "What LLs will the Chaos Dwarfs get?" or some permutation thereof. In these threads, there were three names that popped up more than all the others.
Astragoth Ironhand: Daemonsmith, cyborg, and the "Franz" of the race, taken from the 4th edition army book and an obvious frontliner.
Zhatan the Black: The melee lord from the 4th edition book, usually chosen to compliment Astragoth's magic focus. Sometimes subbed out for Rykarth the Unbreakable.
Drazhoath the Ashen: The most recent Chaos Dwarf character in Warhammer Fantasy Battles, sourced from Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos.
Beyond these three, there was a lot of debate around the hypothetical "fourth" legendary lord. These names include:
Gorduz Backstabba: The third character from the 5th edition army book, had stats and models but was limited by the fact that he's a hobgoblin and no self-respecting Chaos Dwarf would follow him into battle. Rumors of a Skarsnik-type lord abounded.
Tordrek Hackhart: The insane engineer who commands the mechanical kraken in Dreadfleet. Certainly a unique character, but hampered by the fact that he's not a true Chaos Dwarf, and that he never had stats or a model.
Ghorth the Cruel: Lorefully speaking, Ghorth certainly has the chops to be a legendary lord, but he's hampered by the fact that he never had stats, and only really exists in background material for Zhatan.
Rykarth the Unbreakable: This guy had stats, but as a melee character, he's competing with Zhatan for notoriety. When you consider that he never had a model, and he was only invented for the Nemesis Crown mini-campaign (from which not a single other character has been added or even mentioned), he tends to fall short of the others.
Shar'tor the Executioner: Definitely the biggest longshot here, though also the most admirable. Cool model, has stats, very unique, but is only hampered by the fact that he's technically an Age of Sigmar character. I still really wanted him.
There were exceptions, but most people were in the camp of one of these five characters for the fourth legendary lord slot. Of course, CA circumvented this by only having three legendary lords, with Gorduz present as a legendary hero. The three "big ones" got in, and what can we infer from these three?
1. CA seems to have a preference for characters from army books (or at least Forgeworld supplements) as opposed to lore-exclusive characters.
2. CA likes characters who would logically be leading armies of the race they're apart of (which leaves out Gorduz).
3. CA is willing to pull from older sources. I thought Chaos Dwarfs would be almost exclusively styled off of their Tamurkhan appearance, with only one or two units from the 4th edition roster added to round out the ranks. But CA seems to have gone for a fairly even mix of the two.
Keeping this in mind, what can we infer surrounding other speculated future additions?
Dogs of War
Probably the other most speculated race besides the Chaos Dwarfs for many years. Dogs of War are in a similar boat to the Chaos Dwarfs: one old army book, and a handful of supplements after to draw from. Let's look at the army book first. What lords does it have?
Borgio the Besieger: Merchant Prince of Miragliano.
Lucrezzia Belladonna: Merchant Prince (Princess?) of Pavona.
Lorenzo Lupo: Merchant Prince of Luccini.
Marco Columbo: Accomplished explorer of the new world, who has been dead for probably over a thousand years by the time of Total War: Warhammer.
So, due to Marco's untimely mortality, we can narrow our focus down to the first three, who are all merchant princes, who all field vast mercenary armies, and who all have models and tabletop rules. What about heroes?
Mydas the Mean: A greedy, Arabyan paymaster who couldn't lead armies.
Leonardo da Miragliano: Accomplished inventor, but couldn't lead armies (like Mydas) and has been dead for a long time (like Marco).
Both of the heroes in the book acted as more supportive roles, and neither one was capable of the being the army's general. That pretty much puts them out of the running in terms of being legendary lords, though Mydas might occupy a similar spot as Gorduz does as a Legendary Hero, though Asarnil might occupy that role as well. In terms of fourth legendary lords, however, it's the same situation as the Chaos Dwarfs: it's anyone's game.
There's Ghazak Khan, who was considered a Dogs of War lord in a White Dwarf supplement, but honestly would be more at home leading a Greenskin army. There's Morgan Bernhardt, who I'd love to see, but it's questionable if Games Workshop even owns the rights to him anymore. There's Lietpold the Black, a Border Prince who is questionably connected to the Dogs of War. And there's a whole host of RoR commanders who could be uplifted into Lord status, but it's unlikely as these guys were just regiment leaders and only Golgfag got moved up to hero status. Only Borgio, Lucrezzia, and Lorenzo really stand out as obvious LL material, and considering the criteria by which CA chose the Chaos Dwarf LLs... the three of them seem highly likely.
Nagash, or Undead Legions
I'll admit, I've been a Nagash denier for most of my time here. At least, I've been denying that he'd come in a campaign pack. However, I'm now more convinced than ever it'll happen this way. Seeing CA's willingness to pull from Oldhammer sources for the Chaos Dwarfs, I think 5e's Undead Legions leftovers combined with the 6e Army of the Cairns list will see Nagash's ranks filled out. However, whenever the possibility of a Nagash-focused campaign pack is floated, three names come up very consistently.
Nagash: The big bone daddy himself, and the whole reason such a thing would even happen.
Drachenfels, AKA The Nameless: The OG Dark Lord, revived in the End Times and teased in Cylostra's ending dialogue.
Dieter Helsnicht: An old-school necromancer from the Undead Legions army book, a devoted disciple of Nagash.
I bet if you go into any Nagash speculation thread on this board, you'll see these three names mentioned, guaranteed. Beyond that... once again, we have to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Some mention Walach Harkon, who has no more connection to Nagash specifically than any other Vampire. There's the Dread King, who is in the same boat of ambigiuous legal availability as Morgan Bernhardt. And of course, there's Neferata, who, being the Queen of Vampires, is obviously much more befitting in the Vampire Counts. Coming up with a 4th LL for Nagash is difficult, but it's easy to find just 3.
Ind, Khuresh, Nippon, etc.
Obviously, speculating characters with this bunch is more-or-less impossible, but if Games Workshop was to give the green light, it'd be easier for CA to come up with three new characters than four. I think this new format makes the possibility of one or all of these a little more likely, especially considering that CA seems to have several more new races planned.
TL;DR: While I don't like getting less LLs, I think the new format was made not just to save costs, but also because the remaining races CA is planning to add don't have many LLs to choose from, and three seems to suit them better than four.
Releasing three Legendary Lords with an additional Legendary hero is new for us, and is the path we’ll be following for future releases. You told us you wanted more Legendary Heroes, and we agree! These new Heroes can be recruited and used by all of the Lords in any given pack, offering up a lot more playstyle flexibility than before.
One thing, that I think is great news, is the implicit confirmation that we are getting more new races in the future. "Future releases" in plural, to me, implies that they've already planned out this format for at least two more packs. Given Warhammer 3's long content cycle ("many years to come") this is definitely good news. I was a doomer before this, I thought there was a good chance that there wouldn't be any new races after Chaos Dwarfs. But now I'm much more optimistic that we'll see more campaign packs in our future.
The other piece of information is the reduction in the number of LLs. The switch from 4 Legendary Lords to 3 is definitely disappointing from a content perspective, and I can't doubt that it was done forcost-saving purposes. Looking at it that way, I definitely can't approve, especially when coupled with the increase in price. This topic has been discussed a lot in the last week, but it did make me realize something that hadn't occurred to me before. The remaining, potential DLC races for Warhammer 3 all have basically one thing in common, and that is that they are all suited to having 3 Legendary Lords.
Think about it - in most of the debates about what Legendary Lords a campaign pack would get, there have usually been three "obvious choices", and then the fourth spot has been up for debate. Let's look at it on a case by case basis.
Chaos Dwarfs
If you were around for the years and years of Chaos Dwarf-centered speculation, you probably remember the almost monthly threads titled "What LLs will the Chaos Dwarfs get?" or some permutation thereof. In these threads, there were three names that popped up more than all the others.
Astragoth Ironhand: Daemonsmith, cyborg, and the "Franz" of the race, taken from the 4th edition army book and an obvious frontliner.
Zhatan the Black: The melee lord from the 4th edition book, usually chosen to compliment Astragoth's magic focus. Sometimes subbed out for Rykarth the Unbreakable.
Drazhoath the Ashen: The most recent Chaos Dwarf character in Warhammer Fantasy Battles, sourced from Tamurkhan: The Throne of Chaos.
Beyond these three, there was a lot of debate around the hypothetical "fourth" legendary lord. These names include:
Gorduz Backstabba: The third character from the 5th edition army book, had stats and models but was limited by the fact that he's a hobgoblin and no self-respecting Chaos Dwarf would follow him into battle. Rumors of a Skarsnik-type lord abounded.
Tordrek Hackhart: The insane engineer who commands the mechanical kraken in Dreadfleet. Certainly a unique character, but hampered by the fact that he's not a true Chaos Dwarf, and that he never had stats or a model.
Ghorth the Cruel: Lorefully speaking, Ghorth certainly has the chops to be a legendary lord, but he's hampered by the fact that he never had stats, and only really exists in background material for Zhatan.
Rykarth the Unbreakable: This guy had stats, but as a melee character, he's competing with Zhatan for notoriety. When you consider that he never had a model, and he was only invented for the Nemesis Crown mini-campaign (from which not a single other character has been added or even mentioned), he tends to fall short of the others.
Shar'tor the Executioner: Definitely the biggest longshot here, though also the most admirable. Cool model, has stats, very unique, but is only hampered by the fact that he's technically an Age of Sigmar character. I still really wanted him.
There were exceptions, but most people were in the camp of one of these five characters for the fourth legendary lord slot. Of course, CA circumvented this by only having three legendary lords, with Gorduz present as a legendary hero. The three "big ones" got in, and what can we infer from these three?
1. CA seems to have a preference for characters from army books (or at least Forgeworld supplements) as opposed to lore-exclusive characters.
2. CA likes characters who would logically be leading armies of the race they're apart of (which leaves out Gorduz).
3. CA is willing to pull from older sources. I thought Chaos Dwarfs would be almost exclusively styled off of their Tamurkhan appearance, with only one or two units from the 4th edition roster added to round out the ranks. But CA seems to have gone for a fairly even mix of the two.
Keeping this in mind, what can we infer surrounding other speculated future additions?
Dogs of War
Probably the other most speculated race besides the Chaos Dwarfs for many years. Dogs of War are in a similar boat to the Chaos Dwarfs: one old army book, and a handful of supplements after to draw from. Let's look at the army book first. What lords does it have?
Borgio the Besieger: Merchant Prince of Miragliano.
Lucrezzia Belladonna: Merchant Prince (Princess?) of Pavona.
Lorenzo Lupo: Merchant Prince of Luccini.
Marco Columbo: Accomplished explorer of the new world, who has been dead for probably over a thousand years by the time of Total War: Warhammer.
So, due to Marco's untimely mortality, we can narrow our focus down to the first three, who are all merchant princes, who all field vast mercenary armies, and who all have models and tabletop rules. What about heroes?
Mydas the Mean: A greedy, Arabyan paymaster who couldn't lead armies.
Leonardo da Miragliano: Accomplished inventor, but couldn't lead armies (like Mydas) and has been dead for a long time (like Marco).
Both of the heroes in the book acted as more supportive roles, and neither one was capable of the being the army's general. That pretty much puts them out of the running in terms of being legendary lords, though Mydas might occupy a similar spot as Gorduz does as a Legendary Hero, though Asarnil might occupy that role as well. In terms of fourth legendary lords, however, it's the same situation as the Chaos Dwarfs: it's anyone's game.
There's Ghazak Khan, who was considered a Dogs of War lord in a White Dwarf supplement, but honestly would be more at home leading a Greenskin army. There's Morgan Bernhardt, who I'd love to see, but it's questionable if Games Workshop even owns the rights to him anymore. There's Lietpold the Black, a Border Prince who is questionably connected to the Dogs of War. And there's a whole host of RoR commanders who could be uplifted into Lord status, but it's unlikely as these guys were just regiment leaders and only Golgfag got moved up to hero status. Only Borgio, Lucrezzia, and Lorenzo really stand out as obvious LL material, and considering the criteria by which CA chose the Chaos Dwarf LLs... the three of them seem highly likely.
Nagash, or Undead Legions
I'll admit, I've been a Nagash denier for most of my time here. At least, I've been denying that he'd come in a campaign pack. However, I'm now more convinced than ever it'll happen this way. Seeing CA's willingness to pull from Oldhammer sources for the Chaos Dwarfs, I think 5e's Undead Legions leftovers combined with the 6e Army of the Cairns list will see Nagash's ranks filled out. However, whenever the possibility of a Nagash-focused campaign pack is floated, three names come up very consistently.
Nagash: The big bone daddy himself, and the whole reason such a thing would even happen.
Drachenfels, AKA The Nameless: The OG Dark Lord, revived in the End Times and teased in Cylostra's ending dialogue.
Dieter Helsnicht: An old-school necromancer from the Undead Legions army book, a devoted disciple of Nagash.
I bet if you go into any Nagash speculation thread on this board, you'll see these three names mentioned, guaranteed. Beyond that... once again, we have to scrape the bottom of the barrel. Some mention Walach Harkon, who has no more connection to Nagash specifically than any other Vampire. There's the Dread King, who is in the same boat of ambigiuous legal availability as Morgan Bernhardt. And of course, there's Neferata, who, being the Queen of Vampires, is obviously much more befitting in the Vampire Counts. Coming up with a 4th LL for Nagash is difficult, but it's easy to find just 3.
Ind, Khuresh, Nippon, etc.
Obviously, speculating characters with this bunch is more-or-less impossible, but if Games Workshop was to give the green light, it'd be easier for CA to come up with three new characters than four. I think this new format makes the possibility of one or all of these a little more likely, especially considering that CA seems to have several more new races planned.
TL;DR: While I don't like getting less LLs, I think the new format was made not just to save costs, but also because the remaining races CA is planning to add don't have many LLs to choose from, and three seems to suit them better than four.
Remember: there's no reason to get angry on the forums. Be polite and respectful towards other people's opinions, even if you disagree.
Let Slip the Dogs of War - A fanmade Campaign Pack concept
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303462/let-loose-the-dogs-of-war-a-fanmade-campaign-pack-concept
Let Slip the Dogs of War - A fanmade Campaign Pack concept
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303462/let-loose-the-dogs-of-war-a-fanmade-campaign-pack-concept
Comments
To be honest, I don't buy it. In the latest interview when asked:
If so, how much creative freedom do you have on bringing some of the older forgotten units to the game? Like the Dwarven Thunderbarge for example.
Andy Hall replied:
We do have that freedom if we want to, you know, look at those most esoteric units of Forge World units or even, you know, stuff that's in an older RPG supplement, You know, if it's there and we need it to kind of flesh out our roster we'll bloody take it. You know, we will not just scrape the bottom of the barrel, we will go through the base onto the cobbled cellar floor below.
I think the community underestimates how much freedom CA actually has.
- Report
6 · Disagree 6AgreeI would even go further and say that any new race besides Dogs of War and Undead Legion is just not going to happen.
As for Dogs of War I think we might see the following:
Legendary Lord
Lucrezzia Belladonna: Merchant Prince (Princess?) of Pavona.
Lorenzo Lupo: Merchant Prince of Luccini.
Legendary Hero
As for Undead Legions, I am actually not even sure CA will not go Daniel 2.0 with someone like Helsnicht coming through tech tree or something like that.
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/294736/the-final-content-to-finish-dwarfs-of
The final rework for Vampire Counts
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/295376/the-midnight-aristocracy-invites-to-the-final-dance
I have thought about Fishmen
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/302623/i-have-thought-about-fishmen/p1
Proposal for Nippon
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303348/i-have-been-doing-some-thinking-about-nippon
Proposal for Da Vinci themed Tilea
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/303762/welcome-to-tilea-gentlemen
Proposal for Ind
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/322058/the-lands-of-ind-are-welcoming-you
Rework + DLC
https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/322574/bretonnia-needs-dlc-and-rework-and-i-tried-a-bit
- Report
2 · Disagree 2AgreeSad that there likely won’t be a 4th but oh well.
For Nagash I also think that Nagash, Nameless and Dieter are the most likely. This way we get a classic Lich/Necromancer race.
Could also be Walach but he’s more likely for the Bloodline 4Pack.
- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeLLs - Yuan Bo, Yin-Yin, Li Dao
LH - Monkey King
VCounts Pack:
LLs - Neferata, Walach, Melkhior/Zacharias
LH - Conrad
- Report
0 · 8Disagree Agree- Report
7 · 1Disagree 7AgreeIm not sure for how long is the old world in development but it is possible that after success TWW is GW just feels long lost revenues and put a stop to CA own creations so it does not contradict their own new approach.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · 8Disagree Agree- Report
1 · Disagree 1AgreeI can't take it seriously Undead Legion as candidate for campagn pack. Everything is more interesting than random mix of Tomb Kings/Vampire Count units or some randon facfiction list of undead units from old edition as "new race".
Even something like Hobgoblins or Norse Dwarfs will add more to the game than Undead Legion. After all, CA can easy add new 3 legendary lords for Norse Dwarfs/Hobgoblins on both campaign maps. I will not be suprise if CA and GW will expand these two races for the Old World tabletop game and Warhammer 3. Both races are really on same level like Norsca with huge potential for unique playstyle.
- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
2 · Disagree 2Agree- Report
0 · 6Disagree AgreeNagash is a bit more complex, cause Nameless feels very LH-y to me, from his role in the epilogue to his powers and character. But if it's not Nameless as the third LL, then it can only be Neferata.
Hence, my predictions are
DoW : Lucrezza, Borgio, Lupo and Mydas LH
Nagash : Nagash, Nefty and Dieter with Nameless LH
- Report
0 · 4Disagree AgreeLLs Grim Burlockson, Josef Bugman and Malakai Makkaison and Snorri Nosebitter LH
- Report
4 · Disagree 4AgreeOne faction has always gotten the better deal in most LP as far as I can recall. A 1v1v1 LP will not be well fleshed out I feel. 2v1 LP the 2 from same faction might have same mechanics.
- Report
0 · Disagree Agree- Report
0 · 4Disagree Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1AgreeBut yes, it was TOO focused on Tilea.
- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agree