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It might be the case that the DLC team doesn't need more people. To the point where it would have diminishing returns or overcomplicate the process. Too many cooks in the kitchen, as it were.
Edit: In a recent interview, it was revealed that the team started as 2 people, but now it's around 20 people.
There should be 2 teams working on different DLCs simultaneously.
This, why not deliver dlc every 3/4 months (better than 6/8 month actually). And not all dlc are buy by the same people.
Because it is too good to be true. When it comes to CA, one should always think what would be good, and then start substracting. It is a decent thought exercise.
How big do you think the team isn’t? I imagine the team changes size through the development of the DLC, I don’t think the artists stay in full number when all the art is done.
Without knowing the numbers and the amount of work it takes it’s hard to say whether the DLC team is worth growing or not.
Well you can go through the credits and count the number of people listed. That gives us at least a ball park number.
I checked Queen & Crone vs Champions of Chaos. Q&C has credits for 71 people not counting SEGA QA, vocie actors and other external assistance. CoC on the other hand has credits for 233 people plus over 100 external staff.
The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
Well a simple look at the credits for the DLC shows a 328% increase in the number of people credited as working on the DLC when you compared the first WH2 DLC with the first WH3 DLC so the extra manpower is very real unless you are suggesting that CA is faking the credits for Champions of Chaos.
The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
One thing I have wondered recently is whether they will experiment with "minor" DLC, like extra units, lords (unique, not legendary) and/or heroes (including LHs). I think it's fairly obvious that they have a cash cow on their hands and having a second team working on content that could be (relatively) "plug and play", in terms of not affecting the map or any of the more intricate mechanics, could be quite the money-earner.
Generally, however, I don't think there's any reason to believe that SEGA are leaving money on the table. Ultimately, they don't own the rights, so their incentive is to maximise the revenue they get get from the "Warhammer" license before they eventually lose it. There's risk involved that's hard for us to see.
Well a simple look at the credits for the DLC shows a 328% increase in the number of people credited as working on the DLC when you compared the first WH2 DLC with the first WH3 DLC so the extra manpower is very real unless you are suggesting that CA is faking the credits for Champions of Chaos.
Well a simple look at the credits for the DLC shows a 328% increase in the number of people credited as working on the DLC when you compared the first WH2 DLC with the first WH3 DLC so the extra manpower is very real unless you are suggesting that CA is faking the credits for Champions of Chaos.
Efficiency tanked I guess.
Yes it can't possibly be the poor state of the base game, the work needed to implement Immortal Empires or the fact that today DLC require a lot more work than The Grim and the Grave or The Queen and the Crone.
The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
How big do you think the team isn’t? I imagine the team changes size through the development of the DLC, I don’t think the artists stay in full number when all the art is done.
Without knowing the numbers and the amount of work it takes it’s hard to say whether the DLC team is worth growing or not.
Well you can go through the credits and count the number of people listed. That gives us at least a ball park number.
I checked Queen & Crone vs Champions of Chaos. Q&C has credits for 71 people not counting SEGA QA, vocie actors and other external assistance. CoC on the other hand has credits for 233 people plus over 100 external staff.
That kind of tells me they’re taking it seriously enough.
Well a simple look at the credits for the DLC shows a 328% increase in the number of people credited as working on the DLC when you compared the first WH2 DLC with the first WH3 DLC so the extra manpower is very real unless you are suggesting that CA is faking the credits for Champions of Chaos.
Efficiency tanked I guess.
Yes it can't possibly be the poor state of the base game
Oh you dont have to convince me on the state of the base game. Massive regression across the board.
You guys overestimate the amount of money DLC makes. The Epic case already revealed that DLC sales are less than 10 million dollars a year.
I imagine EPIC isn’t anything like Steam and CA have already said their DLC sales are impressively high and unlike other TW games increase rather than decrease.
You guys overestimate the amount of money DLC makes. The Epic case already revealed that DLC sales are less than 10 million dollars a year.
The Epic documents only cover the time period up to 2019, Warhammer 2 hit it's peak player count in 2020. Epic's breakdown of the revenue into Main game and DLC sales is also likely estimates rather than actual numbers aquired from Steam. Epic likely got their hands on the total revenues from different games and then made assumptions about how those numbers broke down further.
The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
You guys overestimate the amount of money DLC makes. The Epic case already revealed that DLC sales are less than 10 million dollars a year.
I imagine EPIC isn’t anything like Steam and CA have already said their DLC sales are impressively high and unlike other TW games increase rather than decrease.
The Epic vs Apple case revealed documents that showed that Epic had actual data on the Steam revenue for a number of games including Warhammer 1 & 2 and 3 Kingdoms. Epic then made estimates of how that revenue broke down into individual sales but those numbers are clearly estimates rather than actual data.
Based on the Epic documents the best we can say is that Warhammer 2 managed an impressive improvement in 2019 compared to 2017-18 when it underperformed. (Revenue almost doubled.) It would be strange if the 3 DLC released in 2019 did not play an important part in that improvement.
The user formerly known as KN_Gars, thanks for the involunatry rename CA.
Based on the Epic documents the best we can say is that Warhammer 2 managed an impressive improvement in 2019 compared to 2017-18 when it underperformed. (Revenue almost doubled.) It would be strange if the 3 DLC released in 2019 did not play an important part in that improvement.
You guys overestimate the amount of money DLC makes. The Epic case already revealed that DLC sales are less than 10 million dollars a year.
I imagine EPIC isn’t anything like Steam and CA have already said their DLC sales are impressively high and unlike other TW games increase rather than decrease.
The Epic vs Apple case revealed documents that showed that Epic had actual data on the Steam revenue for a number of games including Warhammer 1 & 2 and 3 Kingdoms. Epic then made estimates of how that revenue broke down into individual sales but those numbers are clearly estimates rather than actual data.
Based on the Epic documents the best we can say is that Warhammer 2 managed an impressive improvement in 2019 compared to 2017-18 when it underperformed. (Revenue almost doubled.) It would be strange if the 3 DLC released in 2019 did not play an important part in that improvement.
I was under the impression that TK was one of the best selling DLCs for a while, although I do remember WH2 being a slow burner in terms of game sales. Also, was the sales April to April because I believe that there were 3 DLCs in 2018 as well.
I have no doubt that WH DLC sales have always outclassed historical (CA practically said so) and I’m not coming at this as a WH fan as I’ve been here since Shogun 1. Personally I have no doubt that WH DLCs are of huge importance to CA and cannot see a replacement until 40k or they just carry on. It would take some serious improvements to bring historical DLC alongside WH’s success.
To be fair, 9 women can't do a baby in 1 month, but they can make 9 babies in 9 monthes
No they can't. Some projects will take time to start, some will be unable to start.
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Ok so we agree that adding more people to one(!) team may not increase the speed of one DLC.
But about more teams: First we have now more "teams" because the lat time we got three DLCs in a year was 2019. And in this year we had no CP and "only" 1,5 faction reworks (Empire and the second minor bertonnia one).
But let's go away from that picture. It was also meant more as a joking analogy than as a comparison...
The problem here are the versions. More teams increases the versions you need and therefore the risk to have "unstable" versions. Also this could make the planning for the game very very hard. Here is an example:
Vampire Coast introduced the pirate cove system. It was developed for this faction. The next DLC "Prophet & Warlock" introduced the undercities for skaven. That was possible because the DLC team first workd on VC and then on P&W.
Now how will you handle this with two teams? Team 1 is working on Vampire Coast and developing the pirate coves. Only once this feature is finished and tested Team 2 can start working on the skaven undercities. Of course Team 2 starts doing other stuff (Ikits workshop) but how long can they wait for Team 1 until Team 2 can't reach their release target anymore? Maybe coves have technical problems and they are just finished shortly before DLC release?
Of course Team 2 can finish everything except undercities and once they can work on it it shouldn't take that long, should it? If only developing was so easy...even if undercities are just a copy of pirate coves they are different. They add other functions, bonuses or what every (spawning armies, exploding bombs on settlements and so on). This can cause problems you never experienced with pirate coves. Also don't underestimate the balancing. We don't know how the first versions of undercities looked. Maybe they were not fun or too weak/strong. Balancing can take weeks and we know that even in released products balancing is mostly not finished.
Of course it is still possible to develop Vampire Coast and Prophet & Warlock with two teams in parallel and both use the pirate cove/undercities mechanic. It's doable. But it is also highly risky. Regarding time, budget and quality. And let's be honest in a hypothetical scenario in which there would have been these two teams: once CA postponed the release of Prophet & Warlock due to technical problems (undercities) this community would be lake "TWO TEAMS ARE A LIE!!!!!"
Personally I think CA are due a rude awakening this year. Hyena's is going to be a massive failure - anyone can see that. While they are putting fire out from that it is going to become quickly apparent that the only part of the business making any money still is Warhammer 3 DLC.
I'm hoping CA have a new total war title on the horizon because otherwise it's going to be a rough year....
The time needed to develop the engine changes that could be required to support new mechanism, implement the changes in the various tables, test the faction, get feedback from QA team, repeat until satisfied would not changed much with more people.
Having two teams working in parallel on two DLC, if it involved game changing, is risky (see Norsca with two game versions...).
Increasing the DLC size would IMO only allow more content (like more units with more varied models and less simple reskin), but not really shorten the time between two DLC.
It's true that Total war Warhammer makes a CA and SEGA a lot of many for a strategy game. They can afford with this and the other Total War games (Troy/3 Kingdoms) over 900 employees and working on 4-5 Projects at the time.
But it's not a infinte money printing machine like FIFA or Call of Duty which sells about 10 Million times each year and sells Loot Boxes (FIFA) to generate even more money. (Untill today i don't know why someone would pay a lot for Lootboxes but i don't own both games actually/Maybe a old CoD on Xbox 360/One)
But the scaling and the potential is gigantic. So if someone buys WH3 today and likes it, they will buy a lot of more content which was already produced years before. So the goal is keep the hype going with new content that more of us and new costumers are buying the game.
I think that it's safe money, which they can calculate with and fund other developments. So why not sell and produce more? I don't know why, there is a lot to cover but it's limited. The next project/Cash cow must be ready to fund the next projects if WH3 slowly falls in Standby mode. (After all content was released in maybe 7-10 years) It will generate money in future but it will decrease more and more.
3-4 DLC's a year sounds great for me. But i am not the normal customer. I am really attached to this game and will buy good DLC's all the time. I bought every DLC from WH1+2. (Not the Champions of Chaos or Chaos Dwarfs until now/Will buy Champions of Chaos on Sale/Wasn't a fan of only one big new unit and a lot of quantity units for Chaos, but it was needed and a lot of you liked it so i'll wait for a good sale and buy it then// Chaos Dwarfs i don't know much and i really want to play them, but the price increase with less LL and no FLC LL isn't hyping me right now, have to wait until we know more)
Comments
DLC every three or four months would be great.
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4 · 1Disagree 4Agree- Report
7 · Disagree 7AgreeI checked Queen & Crone vs Champions of Chaos. Q&C has credits for 71 people not counting SEGA QA, vocie actors and other external assistance. CoC on the other hand has credits for 233 people plus over 100 external staff.
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3 · Disagree 3Agree- Report
2 · Disagree 2AgreeGenerally, however, I don't think there's any reason to believe that SEGA are leaving money on the table. Ultimately, they don't own the rights, so their incentive is to maximise the revenue they get get from the "Warhammer" license before they eventually lose it. There's risk involved that's hard for us to see.
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1 · Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · 3Disagree Agree- Report
2 · 1Disagree 2Agree- Report
3 · Disagree 3Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeCA are lying about more than one team.
Why?
So, they can trick us.
Why?
…
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4 · 2Disagree 4Agree- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
3 · 2Disagree 3Agree- Report
3 · Disagree 3Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · 2Disagree Agree- Report
0 · 1Disagree Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeBased on the Epic documents the best we can say is that Warhammer 2 managed an impressive improvement in 2019 compared to 2017-18 when it underperformed. (Revenue almost doubled.) It would be strange if the 3 DLC released in 2019 did not play an important part in that improvement.
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3 · Disagree 3Agree- Report
0 · Disagree AgreeI have no doubt that WH DLC sales have always outclassed historical (CA practically said so) and I’m not coming at this as a WH fan as I’ve been here since Shogun 1. Personally I have no doubt that WH DLCs are of huge importance to CA and cannot see a replacement until 40k or they just carry on. It would take some serious improvements to bring historical DLC alongside WH’s success.
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1 · 1Disagree 1Agree- Report
0 · Disagree Agreehttps://www.pcgamer.com/total-war-makers-open-a-third-development-studio/
It says they intend to hire 100 developers in the near future. I wonder if that will relieve the strain on the DLC teams?
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0 · Disagree AgreeSo 2 teams should deliver 2 DLCs.
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1 · Disagree 1AgreeBut about more teams:
First we have now more "teams" because the lat time we got three DLCs in a year was 2019. And in this year we had no CP and "only" 1,5 faction reworks (Empire and the second minor bertonnia one).
But let's go away from that picture. It was also meant more as a joking analogy than as a comparison...
The problem here are the versions. More teams increases the versions you need and therefore the risk to have "unstable" versions. Also this could make the planning for the game very very hard. Here is an example:
Vampire Coast introduced the pirate cove system. It was developed for this faction. The next DLC "Prophet & Warlock" introduced the undercities for skaven. That was possible because the DLC team first workd on VC and then on P&W.
Now how will you handle this with two teams? Team 1 is working on Vampire Coast and developing the pirate coves. Only once this feature is finished and tested Team 2 can start working on the skaven undercities. Of course Team 2 starts doing other stuff (Ikits workshop) but how long can they wait for Team 1 until Team 2 can't reach their release target anymore? Maybe coves have technical problems and they are just finished shortly before DLC release?
Of course Team 2 can finish everything except undercities and once they can work on it it shouldn't take that long, should it? If only developing was so easy...even if undercities are just a copy of pirate coves they are different. They add other functions, bonuses or what every (spawning armies, exploding bombs on settlements and so on). This can cause problems you never experienced with pirate coves. Also don't underestimate the balancing. We don't know how the first versions of undercities looked. Maybe they were not fun or too weak/strong. Balancing can take weeks and we know that even in released products balancing is mostly not finished.
Of course it is still possible to develop Vampire Coast and Prophet & Warlock with two teams in parallel and both use the pirate cove/undercities mechanic. It's doable. But it is also highly risky. Regarding time, budget and quality. And let's be honest in a hypothetical scenario in which there would have been these two teams: once CA postponed the release of Prophet & Warlock due to technical problems (undercities) this community would be lake "TWO TEAMS ARE A LIE!!!!!"
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2 · Disagree 2AgreeI'm hoping CA have a new total war title on the horizon because otherwise it's going to be a rough year....
- Report
4 · Disagree 4AgreeThe time needed to develop the engine changes that could be required to support new mechanism, implement the changes in the various tables, test the faction, get feedback from QA team, repeat until satisfied would not changed much with more people.
Having two teams working in parallel on two DLC, if it involved game changing, is risky (see Norsca with two game versions...).
Increasing the DLC size would IMO only allow more content (like more units with more varied models and less simple reskin), but not really shorten the time between two DLC.
- Report
1 · Disagree 1AgreeBut it's not a infinte money printing machine like FIFA or Call of Duty which sells about 10 Million times each year and sells Loot Boxes (FIFA) to generate even more money. (Untill today i don't know why someone would pay a lot for Lootboxes but i don't own both games actually/Maybe a old CoD on Xbox 360/One)
But the scaling and the potential is gigantic. So if someone buys WH3 today and likes it, they will buy a lot of more content which was already produced years before. So the goal is keep the hype going with new content that more of us and new costumers are buying the game.
I think that it's safe money, which they can calculate with and fund other developments. So why not sell and produce more? I don't know why, there is a lot to cover but it's limited. The next project/Cash cow must be ready to fund the next projects if WH3 slowly falls in Standby mode. (After all content was released in maybe 7-10 years) It will generate money in future but it will decrease more and more.
3-4 DLC's a year sounds great for me. But i am not the normal customer. I am really attached to this game and will buy good DLC's all the time. I bought every DLC from WH1+2. (Not the Champions of Chaos or Chaos Dwarfs until now/Will buy Champions of Chaos on Sale/Wasn't a fan of only one big new unit and a lot of quantity units for Chaos, but it was needed and a lot of you liked it so i'll wait for a good sale and buy it then// Chaos Dwarfs i don't know much and i really want to play them, but the price increase with less LL and no FLC LL isn't hyping me right now, have to wait until we know more)
- Report
1 · Disagree 1Agree