Potential LPs of WH3 - #1: The Captain & the Admiral (Tullaris vs Yin-Yin)

TheWattman#7460

WH3 has yet to see a traditional LP along the lines of WH1 and WH2, but this doesn't mean that we should discount them coming back in the future. In fact, many of us are expecting things like the Monkey King facing off against a Norscan invasion led by Sayl the Faithless (of which I believe has been hinted at from CA even, correct me if Im wrong), or for Tamurkhan to square of against Elspeth von Draken, Jubal Falk or some other Nuln-related character. In any case, LPs were the core of content additions in WH2 and some of them are still highly regarded as models for later content additions. This thread will be part of a series where we'll discuss specific LP ideas, based mostly on thematic lorefriendly rivalries. We're not gonna discuss especially obvious ones, like those mentioned above, simply because they have been talked about for so long and are well hashed-out in the mind of the community. We'll instead turn our attention to less immediate, but still reasonably relevant in the sense of content addition. Which brings us to the first topic of discussion:

THE CAPTAIN & THE ADMIRAL

Tullaris Dreadbringer VS. Yin-Yin the Sea Dragon

Premise:

The context of this potential DLC revolves around the WH3 update/rework of the Dark Elves, as well as the either 2nd or 3rd (last) addition to Cathay and it is set to come either during the midpoint or towards the end of WH3's lifecycle. This is because there are more obvious updates like those mentioned above to push out first. Think of this coming, shall we say, somewhere in 2025 or 2026. In the context of the game, the Monkey King has been released for Cathay, bringing in Monkey Warriors and the like, or whatever CA has planned for that addition. Whether or not Li Dao has been added as well depends on CA's timetable for bringing in Ind and Khuresh (and he'd be the FLC alongside) or if for some reason they want to pit him against another race in his own DLC (although his starting position would be useless without Ind/Khuresh being playable areas). This also matters for the Dark Elves, since then for example Lokhir could be moved downed to Ind to make room on the Cathayan coastline.

Lore & Context in WH3:

So what is the background of this idea? Well it rests upon notions that are well-established in both the pre- and post-WH3 lore concerning Cathay and its relationship with the Dark Elves. In the pre-WH3 lore of Cathay, what little there was, you could say that the Dragon Empire had 2 main enemies, atleast when it comes to those that threatened its interior heartlands, aside from the Monkey King's incursion of course. One were the chaotic minions of Tzeentch, who's disruptive cults was a constant thorn in the side for the Emperor, especially in the city of Beichai. The other were the Dark Elves, who preyed upon the Cathayan coastline as vicious raiders, with the noteable destruction of Khairith Irlean at the hands of an army of Witch Elves. Now, with the WH3 revamp of Cathayan lore, both of these rivalries have remained largely the same. In fact, in the marketing of WH3's release, Cathay and Tzeentch were portrayed as highly antagonistic rivals and were used against eachother in showing their respective contents. So while that first rivalry can be argued to have been established in-game (and thus unnecessary to push with another DLC), the conflict with the Dark Elves remains largely unexplored, beyond Lokhir's placement in the northern part of the coast in Immortal Empires. With Nippon and the Lost Isles of Elithis likely not implemented even by the point of this DLC's addition, if ever, the fight for control of the Jade Sea will have to take place on the coastline itself. Currently, that is a fight between Lokhir and his Vampire Coast allies against Nakai in the south, with Sniktch blocking the way for both Miao Ying and Zhao Ming, who already have bigger fish to fry in other directions.

Implementation (RoC or IE/Story):

The goal of this DLC is to introduce a Cathayan element to this fight, while rearranging the Dark Elf side of things. How can this be done? Well, this all depends on the future of the Realms of Chaos campaign. Right now, the RoC map stops just short of the Cathayan coastlines in the east, posing a significant problem, especially for Yin-Yin. While map expansions in WH3 are certainly possible, they have never been done for the "base game map", but only for IE. The only times the base game map has been changed, it has only been provincial reworks. Now of course, it is technically not necessary for either Yin-Yin or Tullaris to start in the Cathayan coastline, but any other viable locations are hard to come by on this map. With both being naval-focused characters (one as an raider/invader and the other as an order-aligned admiral set to defend), it would have to be in a port. This will leave both parties to have to start in the Dragon Isles (which should be reserved for Tetto'eko when he brings the Lizardmen to WH3) or somewhere in either Norsca or the western Chaos Wastes (literally on the other side of map/world from their supposed context). Without a map expansion for RoC, this would be very far from ideal, which brings up the question of making the DLC an IE-only one.

What would be the story and campaign objective of the respective lords? If they somehow show up in RoC in their proper context, there is little to no chance that they'd be participators in the Souls race. Both of them have either better things to do (like pillaging) or are too busy containing other threats to be able to participate. The premise for Tullaris is easy enough to guess, Khaine has imparted some quest for him through visions that involves quite a lot of slaughtering and his mechanics would be centered around that. Perhaps something like Tehenuain's sacrifices to Sotek, Tullaris is to sacrifice X amount of souls to Khaine in order for him to be empowered to conquer the world, ya da ya da. The more he slaughters, the more bonuses he recieves. As for Yin-Yin, beyond an objective of cleansing the coastline, a certain focus would be to combat the cults of Beichai. There could also be a goal of building up enough of a military to satisfy her father after her disastrous expedition to the Southlands.

Content:

Speaking of militaries, what content would this DLC add? Well broadly speaking, it would be a Khainite expedition against an either naval-focused or general-focused force from Cathay. This side of the DLC is not without its issues however, especially for the Dark Elves, who by unit-content is one of the most complete races in the game atm. Most of what this DLC could potentially add for them will had to be drawn from lore blurbs and far-off sources. The most obvious addition is the Black Ark Fleetmaster, an anti-infantry duelist lord, which is pretty much their only 8th addition content left. Then there things like Draich Masters, champion versions of what they already have. There are Spellthirster and Royal variants of the Hydra, where the former is resistant to magic and the other is more armoured through its bony armour plates. To be frank, the Dark Elves could do just fine only getting an FLC LL and a slavery rework for WH3, but if the imagination is there, they can bring a full DLC's worth of content. Certainly, Shadowblade would be a prime candidate for LH for the Dark Elves as well.

As for Cathay's side of things, it really depends on what the Monkey King adds in the first update. Assuming for the moment that it all has to do with monkeys and Li Dao comes later, Yin-Yin would be the first oppertunity for Cathay to extend its regular military. This can be done within a reasonably naval-focused way by taking the Jade Fleet into account, but also by looking at what combat roles the nation is missing. One of the missing pieces is a standard mainline gunpowder unit, like the Empire's Handgunners. Granted that Cathay already has a lot of missile infantry, it mostly revolves around crossbows and either short or very long range gunpowders. There is now Cathayan gunpowder equivalent of mid-long range gunpowders. Implementing some sort of Jade Warrior Marines could change this. Cathay also has no missile cavalry, but in order to spice things up and not just add unit variants, plus to fit it into the naval theme, one can imagine some sort of Jade Warrior Corsairs mounted atop flying Ki-Rin "unicorns". Ki-Rin could also be the mounts of choice for the Lords and Heroes added with this DLC, assuming we continue the Jade Warrior/Naval theme. Cathay needs a melee hero (that is not a monkey) and a Jade Captain would serve this handsomely. As for lords, a Jade Admiral with a skirmish play armed with a pistol or a rifle would also serve Cathay well at this point. Another option would be Male Shugengan lords in order to fully represent the Dragon lineages. When it comes to centrepieces, Dragon Turtles, maybe with a cannon strapped to them (mirroring Bastiladons) are a forerunner, while we could also see Jade Lions or Temple Dogs if they haven't been added by other updates.

FLC:

Finally, the FLC portion and specifically, what FLC lord would come alongside the DLC? Well, assuming that Li Dao either comes as FLC next to a Khuresh race or gets his own DLC, the only Cathayan candidate left would be Yuan Bo the Jade Dragon, ruler of the Central Provinces. Beyond that, there are a myriad of options, with perhaps the Monogods in the most urgent need of more campaign options. Certainly there is also the possibility of getting Kouran Darkhand for the Dark Elves as well, either as a LH or non-ruling LL for Malekith or as his own faction. Without knowing more of WH3's future, it is difficult to speculate.

What do you think guys? Should this DLC come for WH3? Do you agree with the hypothetical content? Should the Dark Elves rather be treated through FLC? What Cathay DLCs should there be after the Monkey King comes? Should Tullaris or Yin-Yin rather face someone else?

JungleElf#8229

I would love another monstrous centrepiece unit for Cathay (preferrably a Turtle, yes).

Although, as you've said so yourself, Dark Elves are basically 'finished' and don't really need another DLC spot anymore. A minor rework and a FLC for a Fleetmaster would be enough.

It seems CA is a bit more conservative with game 3 with regards to LL-spots, as we're getting some true LH-characters again. The distinction between Hero- and Lord-role on the tabletop is a bit more prevalent this time, compared to WH2. This could mean characters the likes of Tullaris won't be included, or at least not in the form of a LL.

SerPus#7395

JungleElf#8229 said:

This could mean characters the likes of Tullaris won't be included, or at least not in the form of a LL.

Likes of Tullaris?

JungleElf#8229

SerPus#7395 said:

JungleElf#8229 said:

This could mean characters the likes of Tullaris won't be included, or at least not in the form of a LL.

Likes of Tullaris?

Yeah, characters comparable to him, who couldn't lead armies by themselves on the TT.

TheWattman#7460

JungleElf#8229 said:

I would love another monstrous centrepiece unit for Cathay (preferrably a Turtle, yes).

Although, as you've said so yourself, Dark Elves are basically 'finished' and don't really need another DLC spot anymore. A minor rework and a FLC for a Fleetmaster would be enough.

It seems CA is a bit more conservative with game 3 with regards to LL-spots, as we're getting some true LH-characters again. The distinction between Hero- and Lord-role on the tabletop is a bit more prevalent this time, compared to WH2. This could mean characters the likes of Tullaris won't be included, or at least not in the form of a LL.

Well considering that the Dark Elves only have hero-level characters left to add, lets proceed on the premise of WH2, atleast until CA proves us wrong with the LP after the Chaos Dwarfs.

What do you say about the Cathay-side of things besides the Turtle?

saweendra#3399

i don't think cathay needs rifles feels pointless at their roster

Captain_Rex#1635

All the CAthay units are just made up and don’t appear in the Armybook according to Andy. I don’t really like this. Yin-Yin should be FLC in my opinion.

I would rather have Tullaris vs Arbaal in a LP. Khaine vs Khorne!

Maedrethnir#1968

I like the Druchii roster selection. A proper Fleetmaster model woud be a delight.

May the Crusade of Blood sing amidst the cries of those who get to kiss the First Draich!

Khaine!! Khaine!!! Khaine!!!!

Captain_Rex#1635

Maedrethnir#1968 said:

I like the Druchii roster selection. A proper Fleetmaster model woud be a delight.

May the Crusade of Blood sing amidst the cries of those who get to kiss the First Draich!

Khaine!! Khaine!!! Khaine!!!!

Tullaris vs a Khorne LL is what we need!

JungleElf#8229

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

All the CAthay units are just made up and don’t appear in the Armybook according to Andy. I don’t really like this. Yin-Yin should be FLC in my opinion.

I would rather have Tullaris vs Arbaal in a LP. Khaine vs Khorne!

Nope, GW and CA worked together on this.

DrJammat#8325

I'd like to see both these characters, but it would be a wasted opportunity, in my view, not to focus on the watchtowers in northern Naggaroth, and therefore face off against a chaos race.

JungleElf#8229

DrJammat#8325 said:

I'd like to see both these characters, but it would be a wasted opportunity, in my view, not to focus on the watchtowers in northern Naggaroth, and therefore face off against a chaos race.

The watchtowers are exactly that; towers. They don't need to be a carbon-copy of the Cathayan Bastion or anything. Also, the one big threat to the north of the Druchii is already in the game: Valkia the Bloody.

Morathi made sure some of the Marauder tribes even paid tribute to her at a magical palace of ice (The Frozen City) to deter invasions from the north.

So, this scenario is already in the game.

Captain_Rex#1635

JungleElf#8229 said:

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

All the CAthay units are just made up and don’t appear in the Armybook according to Andy. I don’t really like this. Yin-Yin should be FLC in my opinion.

I would rather have Tullaris vs Arbaal in a LP. Khaine vs Khorne!

Nope, GW and CA worked together on this.

They worked together on the de facto Armybook yes. And we know already a good bunch of stuff from that book thanks to Andy’s interviews. But nothing of what you listed appears there. It’s just stuff YOU made up.

JungleElf#8229

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

JungleElf#8229 said:

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

All the CAthay units are just made up and don’t appear in the Armybook according to Andy. I don’t really like this. Yin-Yin should be FLC in my opinion.

I would rather have Tullaris vs Arbaal in a LP. Khaine vs Khorne!

Nope, GW and CA worked together on this.

They worked together on the de facto Armybook yes. And we know already a good bunch of stuff from that book thanks to Andy’s interviews. But nothing of what you listed appears there. It’s just stuff YOU made up.

Who? Me? Read again; I'm not the OP.

Anyway, who knows what they've made besides Monkey Warriors and Crowmen made from stone.

Captain_Rex#1635

JungleElf#8229 said:

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

JungleElf#8229 said:

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

All the CAthay units are just made up and don’t appear in the Armybook according to Andy. I don’t really like this. Yin-Yin should be FLC in my opinion.

I would rather have Tullaris vs Arbaal in a LP. Khaine vs Khorne!

Nope, GW and CA worked together on this.

They worked together on the de facto Armybook yes. And we know already a good bunch of stuff from that book thanks to Andy’s interviews. But nothing of what you listed appears there. It’s just stuff YOU made up.

Who? Me? Read again; I'm not the OP.

Anyway, who knows what they've made besides Monkey Warriors and Crowmen made from stone.

Well then Op made it up.

We know way more stuff from the interview and from in game references. Enough for 2 LPs already. I rather have that stuff first before WE start to invent stuff.

davedave1124#4773

I can imagine there being a lot of opportunities for a Yin Yin DLC. She could bring with her sea monster options and marines, possibly even mercs from the CA version of Shanghai.

SerPus#7395

JungleElf#8229 said:

Yeah, characters comparable to him, who couldn't lead armies by themselves on the TT.

If I remember correctly nothing stopped Tullaris from leading armies on TT.

TheWattman#7460

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

All the CAthay units are just made up and don’t appear in the Armybook according to Andy. I don’t really like this. Yin-Yin should be FLC in my opinion.

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

Nope, GW and CA worked together on this.

They worked together on the de facto Armybook yes. And we know already a good bunch of stuff from that book thanks to Andy’s interviews. But nothing of what you listed appears there. It’s just stuff YOU made up.

Do you have a list of its content somewhere? And yes, since Cathay's roster is invented from scratch, I did make stuff up, combining the current in-game roster and older versions of lore where appropriate. Not much else you can do.

Maedrethnir#1968 said:

I like the Druchii roster selection. A proper Fleetmaster model woud be a delight.

May the Crusade of Blood sing amidst the cries of those who get to kiss the First Draich!

Khaine!! Khaine!!! Khaine!!!!

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

Tullaris vs a Khorne LL is what we need!

That is something I considered back in WH2 before Silence & Fury was announced, but for Tullaris and Taurox. I agree that Khaine vs Khorne is a viable option.

Captain_Rex#1635

davedave1124#4773 said:

I can imagine there being a lot of opportunities for a Yin Yin DLC. She could bring with her sea monster options and marines, possibly even mercs from the CA version of Shanghai.

So far there are no mentions of such things.

TheWattman#7460

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

Well then Op made it up.

We know way more stuff from the interview and from in game references. Enough for 2 LPs already. I rather have that stuff first before WE start to invent stuff.

Do you have a list of that somewhere? Also yes, I did make it up from the in-game roster and older versions of the lore that seemed appropriate for Yin-Yin's theme.

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

I would rather have Tullaris vs Arbaal in a LP. Khaine vs Khorne!

Maedrethnir#1968 said:

I like the Druchii roster selection. A proper Fleetmaster model woud be a delight.

May the Crusade of Blood sing amidst the cries of those who get to kiss the First Draich!

Khaine!! Khaine!!! Khaine!!!!

I did consider Khaine vs Khorne before Silence & Fury was announced, but for Tullaris vs Taurox. Still a viable matchup I'd say. Not sure if it takes precedence over others though.

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

So far there are no mentions of such things.

There is a large population of High Elves and a pocket of Dwarfs in Fu-Chow, Yin-Yin's capital, so they may recruit some expats from there.

davedave1124#4773

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

davedave1124#4773 said:

I can imagine there being a lot of opportunities for a Yin Yin DLC. She could bring with her sea monster options and marines, possibly even mercs from the CA version of Shanghai.

So far there are no mentions of such things.

Doesn’t matter. There is no way they are going to mention everything, as Andy said, get ready for some shocks and surprises.

It’s possible that the units attached to the South will come with the MK making the Southern Dragon a possible FLC.

DeadpoolSW#7283

For the Dark Elves, you could have two different Statues of Khaine units: one 12/16-man unit that works like Ushabti, and an SEM that's a bit of glass cannon to differentiate it from the tankier hydra/kharibdyss.

talonn#7575

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

All the CAthay units are just made up and don’t appear in the Armybook according to Andy. I don’t really like this. Yin-Yin should be FLC in my opinion.

I would rather have Tullaris vs Arbaal in a LP. Khaine vs Khorne!

Uh what? I have watched all Andy interviews and it's the total opposite of what you claimed. All units are based on the official armybook that's gonna be in the old world.

Unless you are referring to the units listed by OP of course, not the ones that are already in game

Captain_Rex#1635

talonn#7575 said:

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

All the CAthay units are just made up and don’t appear in the Armybook according to Andy. I don’t really like this. Yin-Yin should be FLC in my opinion.

I would rather have Tullaris vs Arbaal in a LP. Khaine vs Khorne!

Uh what? I have watched all Andy interviews and it's the total opposite of what you claimed. All units are based on the official armybook that's gonna be in the old world.

Unless you are referring to the units listed by OP of course, not the ones that are already in game

My point was that Andy didn’t mention a single naval themed unit associated with Yin-Yin.

TheWattman#7460

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

My point was that Andy didn’t mention a single naval themed unit associated with Yin-Yin.

Probably because they haven't gotten around to making them yet. And I mean, what units DID he mention in association with Yin-Yin?

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594

Never understood Tullaris as a LL, Kouran seems further up the food chain, being on the council and all, but even he was a stretch.

Scraping the bottom of the barrel for the Dark Elf LL candidates. A fleetmaster would be nice tho.

SerPus#7395

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 said:

Never understood Tullaris as a LL, Kouran seems further up the food chain, being on the council and all, but even he was a stretch.

Kouran is also cool, but Tullaris has the whole "Chosen of Khaine" thing going on.

Dasraliah#7896

As one of the biggest druchis fans out there, I'm sorry but this post really illustrates why the DE are done DLC-wise.

That units proposition is empty. You got a fancanon/loreblurb, a recolor and 2 Silverin Guards tier units, one just stealing from DoW.

The only cool thing here is the Fleetmaster.

DE could get that as a FLC, but they can't field enough for a LP. At best, CA could make a new kind of DLC, with a bunch of LLs for a bunch of races and one heroe/unit each

pblllrr#9773

Cathay doesn't need regular Handgunners, the CDG Crossbows already perform the same role way better.
Jade Marines exist, so that's probably a fine pick. I imagine they'd be anti-infantry dual sword units. Would be cool to get boat hooks represented in the game though, anti-infantry polearms with a slowing effect or something.
Chaledonian Turtles are mentioned in the Cathay tech tree but they are seemingly extinct. Perhaps they could have been recreated via Terracotta arts?
Other stuff associated with eastern Cathay are Tzeentch cults (Beichai), foreign traders and mercenaries (Fu-Chow) and the Sky Fleet (patrols the Jade Sea).
For the Tzeentch stuff, the Onyx Crowmen make sense to me. Hunting down cults is their main job, Beichai is the hotbed of cults and I find it unlikely Yuan Bo is getting his own DLC. Probably a unit like Vargheists although I think it'd be cool if there was a Hero version.
Mercs, that's self-explanatory. If we're not getting Nippon in the game (lol, map) I guess getting Ronin mercs or something might be neat. I honestly don't expect anything from this though, just pray for Dogs of War.
The Sky Fleet is missing some units we already know of. The Sky Junk is supposed to have flamethrower and cannon variants and those seem like relatively cheap to make filler for any Cathay DLC.
Cathay really needs a melee Hero (or a fast, strong dueling unit of some kind) but who knows what form that will take. Maybe it'll be a monkey or monk instead. A Cathayan corsair or pirate is fine by me too.

TheWattman#7460

Dasraliah#7896 said:

As one of the biggest druchis fans out there, I'm sorry but this post really illustrates why the DE are done DLC-wise.

That units proposition is empty. You got a fancanon/loreblurb, a recolor and 2 Silverin Guards tier units, one just stealing from DoW.

The only cool thing here is the Fleetmaster.

DE could get that as a FLC, but they can't field enough for a LP. At best, CA could make a new kind of DLC, with a bunch of LLs for a bunch of races and one heroe/unit each

And what are your thoughts on Yin-Yin?

pblllrr#9773 said:

Cathay doesn't need regular Handgunners, the CDG Crossbows already perform the same role way better.
Jade Marines exist, so that's probably a fine pick. I imagine they'd be anti-infantry dual sword units. Would be cool to get boat hooks represented in the game though, anti-infantry polearms with a slowing effect or something.
Chaledonian Turtles are mentioned in the Cathay tech tree but they are seemingly extinct. Perhaps they could have been recreated via Terracotta arts?
Other stuff associated with eastern Cathay are Tzeentch cults (Beichai), foreign traders and mercenaries (Fu-Chow) and the Sky Fleet (patrols the Jade Sea).
For the Tzeentch stuff, the Onyx Crowmen make sense to me. Hunting down cults is their main job, Beichai is the hotbed of cults and I find it unlikely Yuan Bo is getting his own DLC. Probably a unit like Vargheists although I think it'd be cool if there was a Hero version.
Mercs, that's self-explanatory. If we're not getting Nippon in the game (lol, map) I guess getting Ronin mercs or something might be neat. I honestly don't expect anything from this though, just pray for Dogs of War.
The Sky Fleet is missing some units we already know of. The Sky Junk is supposed to have flamethrower and cannon variants and those seem like relatively cheap to make filler for any Cathay DLC.
Cathay really needs a melee Hero (or a fast, strong dueling unit of some kind) but who knows what form that will take. Maybe it'll be a monkey or monk instead. A Cathayan corsair or pirate is fine by me too.

Another very good version of this. Onyx Crowmen do make sense for Yin-Yin's efforts in Beichai.

HowTheStarsBurn#4488

I don't see a chance in hell this happens, and I don't want it to, far better choices.