Ca Beastmen infantry need a buff in patch 3.0, and here is proof (screenshots)

EvilPanda#8470

as per the title, BM infantry is really, really bad atm. being a rush faction, their infantry should at least be decent, capable of beating same class and below spear units and trade ok against other melee units, while losing to the most elitè infantry civ, that's fine.

but we have a serious problem here, since most infantry units got buffed or got cheaper but BM strangely got nothing of that sort, and here is proof with some testings i made:

Ungor herds (cost 400):
Watch them lose against 300 points Bretonnia Swordsman and 350 clanrats, for example (factions that should have worse infantry by design)

Gor Herd (shield) (cost 550):
watch them trade basically even with 450 Dwarf warriors (they barely win, but fight can go either way)

watch them get beaten by 430 orc boys without WAAAGH, very fair trade...

watch them get demolished by same cost dryads. now WE are supposed to have amazing infantry i guess...

watch them lose (!!!) by high elf spears at 500, a spear unit beating a melee unit costing more...

beaten also by nehekhara warriors (525), without realm of souls

i save you the Gor Herd part but you can guess how it went

Bestigor (1050), oh boy here we go again

watch them lose against halberds, getting totally out -traded by temple guards (1200)

watch them lose against blackguards halberds (1300)

you might say "yeah but they cost more, that's fine. no, cause they are halberds, they should trade bad into GW infantry. here is how blackguards get wrecked by 1100 marauder champions (closest i could find to bestigors)

and here is how Marauder champs GW (1100) vs Bestigor (1050) goes:

watch them getting wrecked by Tzar Guard (1100), which many players consider bad:

watch them barely win against 850 units Chaos warrior GW and Greatsword

most notably, watch them trade real bad into 1000 Skaven Halberds for a GW unit, on a skaven infantry. winning but trading very poorly.

lastly, watch them getting wrecked (like totally out-matched) by same cost Celestial guard. again an halberd unit

looking at these results, it's easy to say that ungor herd are overcosted, even taking stalk into account, since they also lose to night goblin with same cost and stalk as well. they also cost the same as the spear variant, meaning that no sane player would take them over spears for general utility and holding potential

-25 cost could be enough for them, or bumping their melee stats a bit.

Gor Herd (both) simply lack the damage to do something, they have worse WS than a dark elf Bleakswords, and get massacred by same cost unit like dryads and lose to units that cost 100 less or more. They even lose to cheaper spears like HE. they should get like +4 WS or 50 cost drop at least

Bestigor perform like a 950 points unit atm, at best, while costing 1050. either up their damage to 50 like marauder champions or make them 100 points cheaper, simple as that.

afverrall#1754

Yeah they do need a buff

Verdibird#1382

since this is basically only a multiplayer issue (beastmen do fine on campaign), surely they dont need a buff, but a price adjustment?

GloatingSwine#8098

EvilPanda#8470 said:

Gor Herd (both) simply lack the damage to do something, they have worse WS than a dark elf Bleakswords, and get massacred by same cost unit like dryads and lose to units that cost 100 less or more. They even lose to cheaper spears like HE. they should get like +4 WS or 50 cost drop at least

Dryads are an absolutely horrible matchup for almost every low tier infantry (60 armour/20 physical resist is A Lot at that tier), but even worse for Gor Herds because they also have more speed and gor herd have no armour to protect them from the Dryads' low AP attacks.

There's pretty much no way to have them not get massacred by Dryads.

Gor Herd may just be paying too much for speed, charge bonus, and Primal Fury compared to all the other basic hand weapon infantry though. They're not faster enough that they can really dictate engagements and having like 8 extra charge bonus is nice but it's not going to win a fight you weren't winning anyway.

Processing#6286

Amazing thoughtful post, you are correct!

FonRestorff#9571

Just lower the mp prices by 100

#326161

Could be a price or stat adjustment.

But you should post this in Feedback&Suggestions.

DeadpoolSW#7283

Verdibird#1382 said:

since this is basically only a multiplayer issue (beastmen do fine on campaign), surely they dont need a buff, but a price adjustment?

Beastmen do fine in campaign in terms of mechanics, and when controlled by the player. But speaking as someone playing a Beastmen campaign atm - the infantry are garbage, amplified by the fact that the Bestigor Dread cost is an absolute joke.

Verdibird#1382

DeadpoolSW#7283 said:

Verdibird#1382 said:

since this is basically only a multiplayer issue (beastmen do fine on campaign), surely they dont need a buff, but a price adjustment?

Beastmen do fine in campaign in terms of mechanics, and when controlled by the player. But speaking as someone playing a Beastmen campaign atm - the infantry are garbage, amplified by the fact that the Bestigor Dread cost is an absolute joke.

Beastmen campaigns are basically a cake walk - buffing their stats would only make it even more braindead imo

Surge_2#1464

This has to be an MP issue only right? Just tweak the costs for MP.

Beastmen go off the rails so fast in campaign no way they need a buff in base stats.

saweendra#3399

Surge_2#1464 said:

This has to be an MP issue only right? Just tweak the costs for MP.

Beastmen go off the rails so fast in campaign no way they need a buff in base stats.

No its actually not a MP issue.

Or not just bm related issue. Imo.


Its the function of shock infantry not doing shock.
And all of bm infantry are shock infantry.

There are obviously shock infantry that does well but those have very little to do with their high charge bonus.


Basically the change to ultra balance and the adjustment to charges has negatively effected shock part of shock infantry

Neodeinos#5871

Verdibird#1382 said:

DeadpoolSW#7283 said:

Verdibird#1382 said:

since this is basically only a multiplayer issue (beastmen do fine on campaign), surely they dont need a buff, but a price adjustment?

Beastmen do fine in campaign in terms of mechanics, and when controlled by the player. But speaking as someone playing a Beastmen campaign atm - the infantry are garbage, amplified by the fact that the Bestigor Dread cost is an absolute joke.

Beastmen campaigns are basically a cake walk - buffing their stats would only make it even more braindead imo

Yes if Beastmen need anything in campaign it's nerfs.

PhoenixKingMalekith#5710

I see no problem with Bestigors losing to Temple Guards and Black Guards.

Surge_2#1464

saweendra#3399 said:

Surge_2#1464 said:

This has to be an MP issue only right? Just tweak the costs for MP.

Beastmen go off the rails so fast in campaign no way they need a buff in base stats.

No its actually not a MP issue.

Or not just bm related issue. Imo.


Its the function of shock infantry not doing shock.
And all of bm infantry are shock infantry.

There are obviously shock infantry that does well but those have very little to do with their high charge bonus.


Basically the change to ultra balance and the adjustment to charges has negatively effected shock part of shock infantry

I see. Thumbs up my friend.

EvilPanda#8470

#326161 said:

Could be a price or stat adjustment.

But you should post this in Feedback&Suggestions.

thanks for the suggestion (no pun intended lol) i'm not really sure how these days forum is arranged since once there war a "balance" section that was perfect and now it is unclear where to post so thanks, maybe a Mod could move the thread there

EvilPanda#8470

PhoenixKingMalekith#5710 said:

I see no problem with Bestigors losing to Temple Guards and Black Guards.

i posted a comparison with other GW units for this precise matter. GW elitè unit beat Halberd variant consistently. otherwsie, what do BM do against elitè halbs? hope for the once in a lifetime lucky shot of blind cygor at 1550 cost?

marauder champion GW, BO, and all others GW variant beat similar cost halberds because that's how the game works (melee beat spears), all bar bestigor of course

EvilPanda#8470

it is a MP cost problem probably. i mean, the units could use very much a change or tweaks, but if we want the lazy route, even a cheaper cost is alright

damon40000#7640

they have op chariots, cavalry, monster with mortis to mow infantry, lords, so their infantry is understandably worse

EvilPanda#8470

damon40000#7640 said:

they have op chariots, cavalry, monster with mortis to mow infantry, lords, so their infantry is understandably worse

chariots are problematic across the board, borderline bugged, so what are you sayind here?

Op cavalry? you saw centgor GW stats? if Bm cav is OP what is bretonnia cav?slanessh cav? lords is something every faction has you know? BM happen to have one of the worst: khazrak

that sayd, it has no bearing. lots of factions have great "something" and good infantry as well, but these tests show something beyond that, they show that bestigors lose to any given high tier infantry, so why even bring them to a fight? gor trade badly to every mid tier infantry, so why ever bring them? what infantry are BM supposed to bring? and why have they these units if they suck?

in game 2 they were comparable at least, but game 3 bought lots of buff for infantry across the board, but not for BM which now lack behind. obviously these condiseration are all MP related, not SP

no one want BM infantry as strong as chaos warriors infantry, but they should not suck either

Surge_2#1464

EvilPanda#8470 said:

BM happen to have one of the worst: khazrak

EvilPanda#8470

Surge_2#1464 said:

EvilPanda#8470 said:

BM happen to have one of the worst: khazrak

Multiplayer wise, he is bad, and also is very generic since he is not that different than a regular beastlord. he is also bugged on his chariot. but this is not related to the thread

Darksteel83#1113

saweendra#3399 said:

Surge_2#1464 said:

This has to be an MP issue only right? Just tweak the costs for MP.

Beastmen go off the rails so fast in campaign no way they need a buff in base stats.

No its actually not a MP issue.

Or not just bm related issue. Imo.


Its the function of shock infantry not doing shock.
And all of bm infantry are shock infantry.

There are obviously shock infantry that does well but those have very little to do with their high charge bonus.


Basically the change to ultra balance and the adjustment to charges has negatively effected shock part of shock infantry

How does ultra unit size instead of large effect shock infantry?

saweendra#3399

Darksteel83#1113 said:

saweendra#3399 said:

Surge_2#1464 said:

This has to be an MP issue only right? Just tweak the costs for MP.

Beastmen go off the rails so fast in campaign no way they need a buff in base stats.

No its actually not a MP issue.

Or not just bm related issue. Imo.


Its the function of shock infantry not doing shock.
And all of bm infantry are shock infantry.

There are obviously shock infantry that does well but those have very little to do with their high charge bonus.


Basically the change to ultra balance and the adjustment to charges has negatively effected shock part of shock infantry

How does ultra unit size instead of large effect shock infantry?

Its actually pretty simple.

The amount of models you have kill to make a unit combat in effective is higher in ultra so by the time charge wears off shock unit will be stuck on the grind and shock units that do poorly suck on the grind.

ArecBalrin#2350

The charge bonus explanation is the first thing I think of when I look at this: TWW unit stats table

I went through all the units mentioned in the opening post and added them to the table. The main Beastmen infantry by far have more of their values invested in charge bonuses compared to other races.

Considering how much WH gameplay is dependent on stacking beneficial stats, there's little scope for Beastmen infantry to improve on what their actual strength is.

No point suggesting fixes. CA will do what they want, if anything.

songoffire#8157

Agreed for ungors herd and Gors.
For Bestigors I would prefer a cost decrease than a stat buff but a small WS increase could also be viable.
In WH2, I found that bestigors were really good against....cavalry.
Because of their charge bonus cumulated with primal fury given them 35 CB, they could wreck easily almost any cavalry upon charging.
Against elite infantry they were subpar.

saweendra#3399

songoffire#8157 said:

Agreed for ungors herd and Gors.
For Bestigors I would prefer a cost decrease than a stat buff but a small WS increase could also be viable.
In WH2, I found that bestigors were really good against....cavalry.
Because of their charge bonus cumulated with primal fury given them 35 CB, they could wreck easily almost any cavalry upon charging.
Against elite infantry they were subpar.

That was pre charge infantry changes.

Post things like the most elite cav would absolutely wreck them.

Now in wh3 they don't even stand a chance against some of the most elite new cavalry

EvilPanda#8470

songoffire#8157 said:

Agreed for ungors herd and Gors.
For Bestigors I would prefer a cost decrease than a stat buff but a small WS increase could also be viable.
In WH2, I found that bestigors were really good against....cavalry.
Because of their charge bonus cumulated with primal fury given them 35 CB, they could wreck easily almost any cavalry upon charging.
Against elite infantry they were subpar.

yeah i agree partially. bestigor were subpar even in game 2, but now in game 3 the competition just got massively improved. nearly all infantry units got better and we can see this from the testings above. Bestigor basically performed equally as 850 chaos warrior GW.

now considering that BM are not supposed to have as good infantry as chaos warriors, and that bestigors have a bit of speed over chaos warriors, it's fine if they cost like 950, but nothing more. so if they do not want to buff them, then their appropriate cost is 950.

we can say the same for Gors for which 500/550 (both variants) instead of 550/600 feels much better, even if they would still be subpar. they lose to 430 orc boys without waagh after all. and ungors -25 is also helpful not only for a bit more cost efficiency (seriously why they should lose to 300 points bretonnia swords??) but also to differentiate between ungor spears (shield)

right now i would be a fool bringing any infantry unit different than Ungor Spearmen, which are subpar to similar spears units as well, which is just plain sad

songoffire#8157

saweendra#3399 said:

songoffire#8157 said:

Agreed for ungors herd and Gors.
For Bestigors I would prefer a cost decrease than a stat buff but a small WS increase could also be viable.
In WH2, I found that bestigors were really good against....cavalry.
Because of their charge bonus cumulated with primal fury given them 35 CB, they could wreck easily almost any cavalry upon charging.
Against elite infantry they were subpar.

That was pre charge infantry changes.

Post things like the most elite cav would absolutely wreck them.

Now in wh3 they don't even stand a chance against some of the most elite new cavalry

Well you 'd be surprised at how they still perform against cavalry.
Some quick tests against IA so in no way perfect with cavalry controlled by IA as IA did not cycle charge :
-they beat blood knights
-they beat dragon princes
-they beat chaos knights
they indeed get destroyed by Khorne bloodcrushers or slaanesh cavalry.
Now by taking Blood Knights and cycle charging with them I barely beat them but they inflict 1587 gold damage.
So they are not bad against cavalry
But I think it is mainly due to cavalry being currently bad and not doing enough damage during charges.

now considering that BM are not supposed to have as good infantry as chaos warriors, and that bestigors have a bit of speed over chaos warriors, it's fine if they cost like 950, but nothing more. so if they do not want to buff them, then their appropriate cost is 950.

Indeed around 950 gold they would be fine I think.

saweendra#3399

songoffire#8157 said:

saweendra#3399 said:

songoffire#8157 said:

Agreed for ungors herd and Gors.
For Bestigors I would prefer a cost decrease than a stat buff but a small WS increase could also be viable.
In WH2, I found that bestigors were really good against....cavalry.
Because of their charge bonus cumulated with primal fury given them 35 CB, they could wreck easily almost any cavalry upon charging.
Against elite infantry they were subpar.

That was pre charge infantry changes.

Post things like the most elite cav would absolutely wreck them.

Now in wh3 they don't even stand a chance against some of the most elite new cavalry

Well you 'd be surprised at how they still perform against cavalry.
Some quick tests against IA so in no way perfect with cavalry controlled by IA as IA did not cycle charge :
-they beat blood knights
-they beat dragon princes
-they beat chaos knights
they indeed get destroyed by Khorne bloodcrushers or slaanesh cavalry.
Now by taking Blood Knights and cycle charging with them I barely beat them but they inflict 1587 gold damage.
So they are not bad against cavalry
But I think it is mainly due to cavalry being currently bad and not doing enough damage during charges.

now considering that BM are not supposed to have as good infantry as chaos warriors, and that bestigors have a bit of speed over chaos warriors, it's fine if they cost like 950, but nothing more. so if they do not want to buff them, then their appropriate cost is 950.

Indeed around 950 gold they would be fine I think.

you should controll cav

the only cav didn't perform lacked AP damage , 110 armor is a big deal. that's why you need to cycle charge with non ap cav

try sending the cav against there closes comparison Marduaer champ GW or Black orcs

songoffire#8157

saweendra#3399 said:

songoffire#8157 said:

saweendra#3399 said:

songoffire#8157 said:

Agreed for ungors herd and Gors.
For Bestigors I would prefer a cost decrease than a stat buff but a small WS increase could also be viable.
In WH2, I found that bestigors were really good against....cavalry.
Because of their charge bonus cumulated with primal fury given them 35 CB, they could wreck easily almost any cavalry upon charging.
Against elite infantry they were subpar.

That was pre charge infantry changes.

Post things like the most elite cav would absolutely wreck them.

Now in wh3 they don't even stand a chance against some of the most elite new cavalry

Well you 'd be surprised at how they still perform against cavalry.
Some quick tests against IA so in no way perfect with cavalry controlled by IA as IA did not cycle charge :
-they beat blood knights
-they beat dragon princes
-they beat chaos knights
they indeed get destroyed by Khorne bloodcrushers or slaanesh cavalry.
Now by taking Blood Knights and cycle charging with them I barely beat them but they inflict 1587 gold damage.
So they are not bad against cavalry
But I think it is mainly due to cavalry being currently bad and not doing enough damage during charges.

now considering that BM are not supposed to have as good infantry as chaos warriors, and that bestigors have a bit of speed over chaos warriors, it's fine if they cost like 950, but nothing more. so if they do not want to buff them, then their appropriate cost is 950.

Indeed around 950 gold they would be fine I think.

you should controll cav

the only cav didn't perform lacked AP damage , 110 armor is a big deal. that's why you need to cycle charge with non ap cav

try sending the cav against there closes comparison Marduaer champ GW or Black orcs

Mots units of cavalry are not AP. And they destroy them. Even when you cycle charge you can rout the Bestigors sure but elite cavalry will take much more damage than the bestigors price tag.

saweendra#3399

songoffire#8157 said:

saweendra#3399 said:

songoffire#8157 said:

saweendra#3399 said:

songoffire#8157 said:

Agreed for ungors herd and Gors.
For Bestigors I would prefer a cost decrease than a stat buff but a small WS increase could also be viable.
In WH2, I found that bestigors were really good against....cavalry.
Because of their charge bonus cumulated with primal fury given them 35 CB, they could wreck easily almost any cavalry upon charging.
Against elite infantry they were subpar.

That was pre charge infantry changes.

Post things like the most elite cav would absolutely wreck them.

Now in wh3 they don't even stand a chance against some of the most elite new cavalry

Well you 'd be surprised at how they still perform against cavalry.
Some quick tests against IA so in no way perfect with cavalry controlled by IA as IA did not cycle charge :
-they beat blood knights
-they beat dragon princes
-they beat chaos knights
they indeed get destroyed by Khorne bloodcrushers or slaanesh cavalry.
Now by taking Blood Knights and cycle charging with them I barely beat them but they inflict 1587 gold damage.
So they are not bad against cavalry
But I think it is mainly due to cavalry being currently bad and not doing enough damage during charges.

now considering that BM are not supposed to have as good infantry as chaos warriors, and that bestigors have a bit of speed over chaos warriors, it's fine if they cost like 950, but nothing more. so if they do not want to buff them, then their appropriate cost is 950.

Indeed around 950 gold they would be fine I think.

you should controll cav

the only cav didn't perform lacked AP damage , 110 armor is a big deal. that's why you need to cycle charge with non ap cav

try sending the cav against there closes comparison Marduaer champ GW or Black orcs

Mots units of cavalry are not AP. And they destroy them. Even when you cycle charge you can rout the Bestigors sure but elite cavalry will take much more damage than the bestigors price tag.

i mean all great weapon elite units do that period with out cycle charging .

specially if they have high armor which is exactly why you should cycle charge.

when you have such difference in speed this shouldn't be issue