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Should the Dark Elves have this mechanic from the Chaos Dwarfs?

MagosHal#5659MagosHal#5659 Registered Users Posts: 31
edited March 29 in General Discussion
As you know: The Chaos Dwarfs have this mechanic where they can instantly finish building construction by expending their slaves. I think in-universe, the Dawi-Zharr are for all intents and purposes working their slaves to death to speed up the building process.

I think that the Dark Elves wouldn't have a problem with that if they want their buildings to be finished quickly, given that they equally don't give a damn about what happens to their slaves.

Should the Dark Elves have this mechanic from the Chaos Dwarfs? 85 votes

Yes
48%
Pr4vda#6038Anglocaner#6167SirEyeball#3739Maedrethnir#1968Caffynated#2235ScionOfTheEmperor#1907Mkeefe78#4317Labria#2848tspringsteen#4151Ben1990#8909#842985Xihu#1413#27650Theo91#7431Bloodydagger#9716krusher61#3122deathtiger01#8927Kyler_883#1990WhySoSalty#3990Ghettobible#3796 41 votes
No
51%
Serkelet#1834Valkaar#2507Bayes#3307Orontes#2247kabulk#6557MasterSayo01#2856Schub#9514Bereaver#4201FinishingLast#1402Loupi#8512sitarkos21#8910BaronRodney#9956C0mpa#5302Veldrinar#2882PhoenixKingMalekith#5710Ariel#4992General_Hijalti#1213Wyvax#7456imnrk#3524vacrovic#2468 44 votes

Comments

  • Goatforce#6625Goatforce#6625 Registered Users Posts: 8,844
    I am not sure that DEs should just copy paste all of CDs stuff, but like the Skaven got an updated version of the Coast Cove mechanic they should definitely get a version of it (if they aren't already but it is unannounced). Though it wouldn't in this case need to be fleshed uout as much since the CD system is better than the Coves was.

    But a way to insta- build might be nice, just not the most vital part and the part I think that should be dropped if any is. DEs use slaves en-masse but they are not an industrial power like CDs are, and I think spending slaves to insta build is more a reflection of industry mixed with mass slavery than just having lots of slaves.
  • NickCageStoleMyFace#5594NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 Registered Users Posts: 4,191
    edited March 30
    Yes
    Absolutely should take some aspects of it, I’ve seen arguments that Chaos Dwarfs and Dark Elves should have unique slave mechanics but the problem is DEs slave mechanics look like absolute crap next to the CDs.

    This patch is the perfect opportunity to change them for the better. Also sharing mechanics for some races is not the end of the world.

    Bretonnia could use the warband upgrade system from the WoC.
  • saweendra#3399saweendra#3399 Registered Users Posts: 21,341
    No
    No i think they should have different one than chorfs.

    Since dark eleves do other things apart from just you know working and making them fight.

    #givemoreunitsforbrettonia, my bret dlc


  • #568367#568367 Registered Users Posts: 8,140
    No
    No, they're different races and should use their slaves differently.

    I think it'd be interesting if they enact some sort of ritual that requires them to kill slaves to achieve power. Like spawn a stack of slaves sort of like Khorne's mechanic, except the army you battle will start the battle instantly on the retreat and it's your army's job to kill as many as you can, your bonuses scaling by how many slaves you kill.
  • Passthechips#4366Passthechips#4366 Registered Users Posts: 5,132
    No
    No, Dark Elves wouldn’t make armaments to sell to other races nor are they a really industrial race.

    They could take aspects from it, and certainly should have individual province management back, but they really should have other bonuses and uses for slaves.

    It’d be fine to keep it to one resource, but have multiple competing uses for the resource.
  • Xihu#1413Xihu#1413 Registered Users Posts: 353
    edited March 30
    Yes
    Labour Economy mechanic, yes… BUT the outputs would need to be reworked into something lore-friendly.

    So NO to a direct copy/paste, but a YES to using Labour Economy as a baseline mechanic for DEs.
  • MagosHal#5659MagosHal#5659 Registered Users Posts: 31

    No, Dark Elves wouldn’t make armaments to sell to other races nor are they a really industrial race.

    They could take aspects from it, and certainly should have individual province management back, but they really should have other bonuses and uses for slaves.

    It’d be fine to keep it to one resource, but have multiple competing uses for the resource.

    I was not talking about armaments, I was talking about the labour/slave mechanic where they can insta-build buildings.
  • Valkaar#2507Valkaar#2507 Registered Users Posts: 6,002
    No
    I do think the Dark Elf slavery system needs updates and improvements now that the Chaos Dwarfs are basically just 'Old Dark Elf slavery but better'.

    But I don't want Dark Elf slavery to completely copy what the Chaos Dwarfs have now. There should be unique aspects for each Race. 'Instant construction' specifically feels fine as a Chaos Dwarf-only aspect.
  • Guttrench#8929Guttrench#8929 Registered Users Posts: 174
    Yes
    I think a feast like mechanic for pre battle such as slaughtering a number of slaves maybe on a sliding scale, army based amount or something along those lines. So you sacrifice a small, medium or large amount of slaves giving you various amounts of murderous prowess and a small buff. This way when you first engage you’ll activate it very early or right away allowing a strong burst of damage early in the fight. This could also be used for a magic reserve increase as well with a suitable bonus.

    Also since DE like to do slave combat, murder and torture slaves so maybe something like a building that consumes slaves but produces a good amount of experience to help you gain elite armies faster than most other races or just have them in cities consume slaves but give an upkeep/experience boon for doing so.
  • #80011#80011 Registered Users Posts: 91
    Yes
    The bonus you get from having a slaves surplus already speeds up construction time, and it can get quite busted with 10k slaves + a treasure hunt construction bonus, which is easy enough to get multiple times as DE. So, the Druchii can already build ridiculously fast, which would make this mechanic almost completely obsolete by mid game (you can build most buildings in one turn). If CA gives it to DE, it must come with yet another rework of their slaves mechanic, so they don't end up with two mechanics that have a similar effect.

    I voted yes, because I wouldn't be against it, but I would vote "whatever" if that was an option. I don't think it would make that much of a difference, considering DE's current slaves surplus effect.
  • kaiki#4128kaiki#4128 Registered Users Posts: 1,137
    No
    I asked the same question to myself when watching Zatan's video, and my answer is No almost immediately.
  • Maedrethnir#1968Maedrethnir#1968 Registered Users Posts: 19,435
    Yes
    Instant building construction? Yes, it makes sense to be reused. The rest should be unique, though.

    I say they should have a slave system where different races provide different bonuses. It would incentivise players to use Black Arks. The slaves could be given different roles. For example, Elves would make the best pleasure slaves and sacrifices, Dwarfs would make excellent miners, and Beastmen food for beasts. Some factions would benefit from certain types of slaves more than from others.
  • Pr4vda#6038Pr4vda#6038 Registered Users Posts: 2,746
    Yes
    Yes, but It should cost slaves+gold to avoid too much OPness.
    Team Dawis

    Dawis shall purge all their fallen Karaks, with the blood of the Greeskins and the skavens !
  • GloatingSwine#8098GloatingSwine#8098 Registered Users Posts: 3,068
    The Dark Elves should, at the very least, have their original mechanics with the values balanced to make their economy not overwhelming.

    Their new mechanics are bad.
  • Theo91#7431Theo91#7431 Registered Users Posts: 3,324
    Yes
    I get it when people say every race should have something unique. But let’s be honest, CA don’t always get it right and there’s a LOT of races where they’ve **** up the mechanics including DE atm. If it works, just go with it
  • PhoenixKingMalekith#5710PhoenixKingMalekith#5710 Registered Users Posts: 2,790
    No
    I hope they rework DE slave mechanic in the future. Not that it’s too bad now, but personally I preferred the previous one. Maybe a mix between both could be cool.

    Also, I would love to give CD and DE the ability to trade slaves.
    "You stumble about in darkness. There is no light here, no mercy. Naggarond has claimed the souls of better heroes than you."
  • #568367#568367 Registered Users Posts: 8,140
    No

    I hope they rework DE slave mechanic in the future. Not that it’s too bad now, but personally I preferred the previous one. Maybe a mix between both could be cool.

    Also, I would love to give CD and DE the ability to trade slaves.

    The old system was "shut down your brain and get rich without actually doing anything" which is way worse than the current system
  • Ben1990#8909Ben1990#8909 Registered Users Posts: 3,500
    Yes

    As you know: The Chaos Dwarfs have this mechanic where they can instantly finish building construction by expending their slaves. I think in-universe, the Dawi-Zharr are for all intents and purposes working their slaves to death to speed up the building process.

    I think that the Dark Elves wouldn't have a problem with that if they want their buildings to be finished quickly, given that they equally don't give a damn about what happens to their slaves.

    Yes, but sufficiently changed to stand out.
  • Draxynnic#3149Draxynnic#3149 Registered Users Posts: 11,664
    I was definitely looking at the Let's Play and thinking that I certainly hope they use some of those ideas, or something like them, to improve the Dark Elf slave system. Feels like the current DE system is essentially a 'first draft' and the CD system is the finished product, but the DE system should also be finished.

    Probably not direct copies, I don't think, but it could certainly be used as a basis for a touch-up.
  • agentad#7983agentad#7983 Registered Users Posts: 9
    edited March 31
    Yes
    The difficulty is:

    CD got a slavery system "labourers" tied as a currency allowing a lot of side actions (like food for ogres)
    => CD is incredibly fine with a real management with meaningful possible actions
    => scale really good in late game because of managements and lot of external actions

    DE got a slavery system "slaves" tied only to economy & low external things
    => no real management, you just need to stack it as much as you can (like money), but you have to also increase the limit you can store
    => really bad scaling with time: you need constantly more but you also lose a lot more as you grow more and more
    => some factions need far even more (hellebron, which becomes nearly impossible to play on longest terms) because of unique mechanics or simply not missing black ark rites
    => so practically the current system for DE is too intrusive and asks a lot of slave income for only a short time gains, its mostly struggling between gaining too much slaves (but not enough space) or losing them too fast (and no big enemies doing a big income)
    => the system basically negate any building variety, you are just doomed if you want to build freely or save slots for other things

    in short: no, DE cant have the same system as CD because CD is more about a lot of different actions while DE is only a second money touching the real money (so they want an economy focus for DE instead of a "practical" use)

    EDIT: i personally dream of a closer gameplay between CD and DE, but CA seems to make they in different design (and so DE is now really less optimised, really missing WH2 system)
  • Gustaf97#1801Gustaf97#1801 Registered Users Posts: 103
    Yes
    DE and HE both need reworks and mechanics.

    Slaves for DE is poop now, dictats is a lazy joke and kills my soul. The Labour Economy tab for CD is amazing. Moving slaves (at a cost) to maximize efficiancy or make slaves available for insta building. This is great, changing the resource "raw materials" to money or some new resource would probably be easy and lorefriendly.

    Tieing the black roads to the DE "Slave(labour) Economy" mech would be even better. Black roads could give you cheaper slave transfer costs... aswell as movement range and small income bonus.

    DE should have several ways of using slaves as bloody sacrifice to Khaine for battle buffs. And tier 5 temple of Khaine could consume slaves but have higher bonuses.

    Lots of fun things are possible. Currently DE (which is my favorit race) is so hamstrung. I still havent had my "paint the map" in IE with Malekith or Morathi because of the stuipid state the slave mechanic is in currently.

  • Gustaf97#1801Gustaf97#1801 Registered Users Posts: 103
    Yes
    DE needs forts along their norther border against the chaos wastes. Just like empire forts, giving the DE heartland some sense of being controled by DE.
  • Dezpo#6801Dezpo#6801 Registered Users Posts: 73

    DE needs forts along their norther border against the chaos wastes. Just like empire forts, giving the DE heartland some sense of being controled by DE.

    Since they are Towers, I would prefer them to be added like an unique version, different than forts.

    So it would be an unique province (like fort), but the difference would be that the tower don't block the way, that mean enemy army could still pass the tower without having to destroy it.
    When there a fort, you have to destroy or capture the fort before passing.

    So the difference would be penality, like you could build building in the tower that put debuff to enemy armies like attrition and slow down the movement speed of the enemy armies beginning in the Tower province (like a dark magic snow tempest, dealind damage and reudcing the speed and visibility of ernemy armies)

    So the enemy army could have the choice to take the debuff and still advance toward your main towns, or decide that the debuff are too strong and would prefer destroy the Tower first.

    Of course you could also build bigger garrison for the tower and army buff for ally.

    I tnink this way it differency them from fort and act really like a Sentinel Towers preventing for invasions
  • Guttrench#8929Guttrench#8929 Registered Users Posts: 174
    Yes

    DE needs forts along their norther border against the chaos wastes. Just like empire forts, giving the DE heartland some sense of being controled by DE.

    Since they are Towers, I would prefer them to be added like an unique version, different than forts.

    So it would be an unique province (like fort), but the difference would be that the tower don't block the way, that mean enemy army could still pass the tower without having to destroy it.
    When there a fort, you have to destroy or capture the fort before passing.

    So the difference would be penality, like you could build building in the tower that put debuff to enemy armies like attrition and slow down the movement speed of the enemy armies beginning in the Tower province (like a dark magic snow tempest, dealind damage and reudcing the speed and visibility of ernemy armies)

    So the enemy army could have the choice to take the debuff and still advance toward your main towns, or decide that the debuff are too strong and would prefer destroy the Tower first.

    Of course you could also build bigger garrison for the tower and army buff for ally.

    I tnink this way it differency them from fort and act really like a Sentinel Towers preventing for invasions
    I would also like to put forward the possibility to intercept option asking if you want to or allow them to pass. So if you want to when an army walks though you can intercept for a field battle. Representing your army marching out to kill off enemies from the tower. That way if tiny armies go through or weak trash you could send your troops out to end it.
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