Potential LPs of WH3 - #2: The Pernicious & the Denied (Aislinn vs Dechala)

TheWattman#7460 · March 30

WH3 has yet to see a traditional LP along the lines of WH1 and WH2, but this doesn't mean that we should discount them coming back in the future. In fact, many of us are expecting things like the Monkey King facing off against a Norscan invasion led by Sayl the Faithless (of which I believe has been hinted at from CA even, correct me if Im wrong), or for Tamurkhan to square of against Elspeth von Draken, Jubal Falk or some other Nuln-related character. In any case, LPs were the core of content additions in WH2 and some of them are still highly regarded as models for later content additions. This thread will be part of a series where we'll discuss specific LP ideas, based mostly on thematic lorefriendly rivalries. Which brings us to the second topic of discussion:

THE PERNICIOUS & THE DENIED

Sea Lord Aislinn VS. Dechala the Denied One

Premise:

The context of this potential DLC revolves around the WH3 update/rework of the High Elves, as well as the either 1st or 2nd (last) addition to Slaanesh and will likely come in the middle of WH3's lifecycle. High Elves are a popular race, but there might be a few other additions to get through first. Think of this coming, shall we say, somewhere in late 2024 or 2025. In the context of the game, Styrkaar may or may not have been added to Slaanesh in his own mortal-themed DLC and depending on what has or is planned to be added there, the regular mortal side of Slaanesh may be finished. Which would thus open the way for adding from secondary sources, most noteably from the Cult of Slaanesh army list containing corrupted Dark Elves. As for the High Elves, it is likely that this will be their only DLC-addition and only update to bring them into WH3.

Lore & Context in WH3:

So what is the background of this idea? Quite simply, it is rather a race-expression than an explicit rivalry between characters. Slaanesh and the High Elves are vicious enemies, N'kari's invasions of Ulthuan being the most potent examples. Over the course of WH2, the High Elves had 2 very big rivalries, one race-wide against the Dark Elves and one character specific with Warden & Paunch. Now it is time for them to face off against Chaos and specifically, the god that risks claiming their souls after they die. And with Dechala herself, now one of two primary frontrunners for Slaanesh DLCs, being a fallen Elven daughter, the conflict between the two races becomes all the more pertinent. While N'kari already starts on Ulthuan in IE, it hasn't really represented the rivalry to a meaningful extent, such as the Cathay-Tzeentch rivalry at game launch. The stage is set for a great showdown. As for Aislinn, other than his rivalry with Lokhir Fellheart, he has been the most active in the chaotic-bordered seas near Norsca, making him a qualified candidate to repel any invasion (although the fact that N'kari already got passed him is a bit worrying).

Implementation (RoC or IE/Story):

Much like the first DLC we discussed regarding Tullaris and Yin-Yin, this DLC also depends heavily on the fate of the Realms of Chaos campaign. As the focus of the DLC could argueably be some sort of invasion by Dechala on Ulthuan or its vicinity (possibly in pursuit of the Daemon Samael, more on that below), the map would have to be expanded west, allowing for Aislinn to start in the northeastern Elven sea kingdom of Cothique. Dechala meanwhile could start on the tip of Norsca. Any other form of implementation, atleast in RoC would make little to no sense. Of course it could be expanded south slightly, allowing a start in the City of Spires in northern Ind, but would leave Aislinn with little to fight except a couple of Ogres, Drazhoath and (god-forbid) the Dragon Isle Lizardmen before running into friendly Imrik and the mountain wall-block of Greasus. It would likely also place him half a world away from his intended rival. This further raises questions of viability concerning IE-only DLCs like in the previous iteration of this.

Well then, what would be the story and campaign objective? For Dechala that is fairly easy to guess, as she would be on the hunt for the Daemon Prince Samael, her former husband. She has to kill him if she ever wants to ascend to Daemonhood. Maybe he has hidden away in Ulthuan, who knows. However, correct me if Im wrong, but there have been hints about the Amulet of Sunfire concerning the High Elves, which is an artifact given by the goddess Lileath to the race. It is said to bring hope to those in despair and could obey no evil creature. It went down into the sea with Prince Aravel, son of Phoenix King Morvael. If it is to be a race for this artifact, then either Slaanesh or Dechala herself thinks that she was originally an Elf, maybe she could still use it, or suck out its power to help dominate the world, something along those lines. Aislinn with his fleet would be standing in Dechala's way, assuming they are either aware of her plans or know where the amulet is themselves.

Content:

Speaking of fleets, what content would this DLC add? It is a very straightforwards answer for both parties involved. Both Slaanesh and the High Elves, as previously mentioned, have secondary army lists that can provide units appropriate to the respective lords. Assuming for the moment that there is another Slaanesh DLC led by Styrkaar, which finishes up the mortal/Beastman side of the roster, all that would be left for Slaanesh would be the Cult of Slaanesh army list of corrupted Dark Elves. An army quite apt for a fallen Asuress. Regrettably, it may not be a very exciting addition rosterwise, at would mostly just add Dark Elf units to Slaanesh, but it would certainly give the roster more armoured options, especially in the cavalry department with potential Cold One Knights. There is certainly room for Dreadspear-like infantry to fill out the anti-large niche for the infantry. Depending on the extent of the addition, Slaanesh may also find itself with missile infantry and artillery in the form of Shades and Bolt Throwers. In the leaders category, a Druchii Annointed is sure to come, possibly followed by armoured melee Noble heroes.

The High Elves have the high ground in the unit category here, drawn from both 8th edition and their secondary Sea Patrol army, with two imposing centrepieces yet to come: the Lothern Skycutter and the Merwyrms. Flying artillery chariots and sea monsters, what a thing to combine. Alongside, they could be joined by Ship's company, a simple sword & shield infantry unit, as well as Sea Elf Wardancers, the Sea Helm Hero and the Anointed of Asuryan Lord. Although, as/if the AoA is/might be unnecessary, it would be a perfect oppertunity to add male versions of Mages and Archmages under the guise of Mist Mages and Storm Weavers. It would also be the oppertunity to add either Korhil or Caradryan as legendary heroes.

FLC:

Last but not least, the FLC. Assuming that the High Elves won't recieve an 8th lord (of which there is no real need), another Slaanesh character would be the logical one to include. Assuming she hasn't been added already, the Masque of Slaanesh would be the primary candidate. Beyond that, its anybody's guess.

What do you think guys? Should this DLC come for WH3? Do you agree with the hypothetical content? If not, what other High Elf/Slaanesh DLCs should there be? Should Aislinn or Dechala rather face someone else?

Captain_Rex#1635 · March 31

Aislinn is inevitable at this point.

SerPus#7395 · March 31

TheWattman#7460 said:
What do you think guys?

The Slaanesh half of that LP doesn't look good.

TheWattman#7460 · March 31

SerPus#7395 said:
The Slaanesh half of that LP doesn't look good.

Well unfortunately, Slaanesh doesn't have a lot of options left. There is only so much mortal stuff left available and I believe that the Fiend Spawns and the snake Steeds are the only unique stuff. A few Chaos warrior variants (like Halberds) and the Chaos Sorceror Lord, which I imagine will come with Styrkaar. There is of course Beastmen variants as well.

Unless CA gets inventive of course.

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 · March 31

SerPus#7395 said:

TheWattman#7460 said:
What do you think guys?
The Slaanesh half of that LP doesn't look good.

I don’t have a problem with Dark Elves in the Slaanesh roster but bolt throwers, shades and cold one riders might be a bit much. Rather get the Serpent of Slannesh and Slaangors than those 3.

Heavily armoured Druchi spears would be cool though along with some Dark casters like OP proposes.

SerPus#7395 · March 31

TheWattman#7460 said:
Well unfortunately, Slaanesh doesn't have a lot of options left.

There is more than just a bunch of Dark Elves reskins, especially if you don't try to stretch it out to get two mediocre DLCs rather than one that's actually good.

Captain_Rex#1635 · March 31

TheWattman#7460 said:

SerPus#7395 said:
The Slaanesh half of that LP doesn't look good.
Well unfortunately, Slaanesh doesn't have a lot of options left. There is only so much mortal stuff left available and I believe that the Fiend Spawns and the snake Steeds are the only unique stuff. A few Chaos warrior variants (like Halberds) and the Chaos Sorceror Lord, which I imagine will come with Styrkaar. There is of course Beastmen variants as well.

Unless CA gets inventive of course.

I think Slaanesh will only get 1 LP sadly with the centrepiece units being the Boob Snake knights and Slaangors (AoS model).

Manpersal#3961 · March 31

OP I admire your valour, for creatong this thread knowing that it will inevitably devolve into an Ainslinn-Finubar debate.

SerPus#7395 · March 31

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 said:
I don’t have a problem with Dark Elves in the Slaanesh roster

I do have a problem with them being DLC units. That's even leaving aside the fact that the Cult of Slaanesh is Morathi's personal list.

Storm of Chaos introduced had three things for Slaanesh that aren't in the game yet: Druchii Anointed, Devoted of Slaanesh and Pleasureseekers.

Pleasureseekers is the most obvious option for Dechala. They are Daemonettes riding snake-like daemonic mounts of Slaanesh. Swap the Daemonettes for Chaos Knights and you got two new units.

Druchii Anointed are Chaos-corrupted Dark Elves with Daemonic powers. They were lords that couldn't be generals, so it would make sense to either make them heroes or turn them into elite infantry. maybe even ranged, considered that they could use repeater crossbows.

Devoted of Slaanesh are unarmoured elves with dual weapons. I don't see what exactly is their point considering that there are daemonettes, but let's say that they would be better againt unarmoured infantry blobs, while Daemonnettes have armour-piercing and no bonus againt iunfantry.

Captain_Rex#1635 · March 31

manpersal#3961 said:
OP I admire your valour, for creatong this thread knowing that it will inevitably devolve into an Ainslinn-Finubar debate.

Wouldn’t really call it a debate. Just the usual 3-4 individuals being on full Copium.

Captain_Rex#1635 · March 31

SerPus#7395 said:

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 said:
I don’t have a problem with Dark Elves in the Slaanesh roster
I do have a problem with them being DLC units. That's even leaving aside the fact that the Cult of Slaanesh is Morathi's personal list.

Storm of Chaos introduced had three things for Slaanesh that aren't in the game yet: Druchii Anointed, Dovvoted of Slaanesh and Pleasureseekers.

Pleasureseekers is the most obvious option for Dechala. They are Daemonettes riding snake-like daemonic mounts of Slaanesh. Swap the Daemonettes for Chaos Knights and you got two new units.

Druchii Anointed are Chaos-corrupted Dark Elves with Daemonic powers. They were lords that couldn't be generals, so it would make sense to either make them heroes or turn them into elite infantry. maybe even ranged, considered that they could use repeater crossbows.

Devoted of Slaanesh are unarmoured elves with dual weapons. I don't see what exactly is their point considering that there are daemonettes, but let's say that they would be better againt unarmoured infantry blobs, while Daemonnettes have armour-piercing and no bonus againt iunfantry.

Well Morathi should get them too obviously but considering that she’s already in the game….

The Son of Kislev short story also mentioned crab clawed Elven cultists who would serve great as a unit.

Heretical_Cactus#7598 · March 31

I think Slaanesh, and in some point Tzeentch also, should be getting units that are inspired by the AoS ones, but rebranded and made to fit with the older Fantasy ones.

For Dechala I'd see the units roster to end up as follow:

Druchii Anointed Corsair Lord: Light Duellist, use a lot of poisons and has some small ranged poison attack.
Mount: Horse, Cold One, Deamon Mount

Druchii Anointed Hero

Units:

Anointed Shades:
- Bow and Twin Swords
- Blissbard and Twin Swords
- Bow and Great Sword

Blissbard Seeker: Ranged cav
Sickblade Seeker: Melee cav

Set piece:
Blissbard Crossbow
Special Chaos Spawn

Lunaticprince#9972 · March 31

With that amount if dark elves units as her "dlc" being suggest can the op as good say her being a de legendary lord

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 · March 31

SerPus#7395 said:

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 said:
I don’t have a problem with Dark Elves in the Slaanesh roster
I do have a problem with them being DLC units. That's even leaving aside the fact that the Cult of Slaanesh is Morathi's personal list.

Storm of Chaos introduced had three things for Slaanesh that aren't in the game yet: Druchii Anointed, Devoted of Slaanesh and Pleasureseekers.

Pleasureseekers is the most obvious option for Dechala. They are Daemonettes riding snake-like daemonic mounts of Slaanesh. Swap the Daemonettes for Chaos Knights and you got two new units.

Druchii Anointed are Chaos-corrupted Dark Elves with Daemonic powers. They were lords that couldn't be generals, so it would make sense to either make them heroes or turn them into elite infantry. maybe even ranged, considered that they could use repeater crossbows.

Devoted of Slaanesh are unarmoured elves with dual weapons. I don't see what exactly is their point considering that there are daemonettes, but let's say that they would be better againt unarmoured infantry blobs, while Daemonnettes have armour-piercing and no bonus againt iunfantry.

I mean we already got a Dark Elf in the roster that has no TT ties to the Storm of Chaos so

Morathi isn't getting a DLC dedicated to her, Morathi will benefit though. Makes enough sense coming with Dechala as who else could they come with.

SerPus#7395 · March 31

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 said:
I mean we already got a Dark Elf in the roster that has no TT ties to the Storm of Chaos so

The Cultist of Slaanesh isn't copypasted Dark Elf unit that is sold as DLC. That's the point.

TheWattman#7460 · March 31

SerPus#7395 said:
There is more than just a bunch of Dark Elves reskins, especially if you don't try to stretch it out to get two mediocre DLCs rather than one that's actually good.

Captain_Rex#1635 said:
I think Slaanesh will only get 1 LP sadly with the centrepiece units being the Boob Snake knights and Slaangors (AoS model).

True enough, but that might run the risk of not getting a "complete roster" on either side.

manpersal#3961 said:
OP I admire your valour, for creatong this thread knowing that it will inevitably devolve into an Ainslinn-Finubar debate.

Not so far it seems.

SerPus#7395 said:
I do have a problem with them being DLC units. That's even leaving aside the fact that the Cult of Slaanesh is Morathi's personal list.

Storm of Chaos introduced had three things for Slaanesh that aren't in the game yet: Druchii Anointed, Devoted of Slaanesh and Pleasureseekers.

Pleasureseekers is the most obvious option for Dechala. They are Daemonettes riding snake-like daemonic mounts of Slaanesh. Swap the Daemonettes for Chaos Knights and you got two new units.

Druchii Anointed are Chaos-corrupted Dark Elves with Daemonic powers. They were lords that couldn't be generals, so it would make sense to either make them heroes or turn them into elite infantry. maybe even ranged, considered that they could use repeater crossbows.

Devoted of Slaanesh are unarmoured elves with dual weapons. I don't see what exactly is their point considering that there are daemonettes, but let's say that they would be better againt unarmoured infantry blobs, while Daemonnettes have armour-piercing and no bonus againt iunfantry.

I would have saved Pleasureseekers for Styrkaar, they're both mortal so it doesn't thematically matter one way or the other, its just that Styrkaar actually rides one.

I was also weary of implementing "Witch Elves" for Slaanesh considering all their Daemon infantry perform similar roles.

Heretical_Cactus#7598 said:
I think Slaanesh, and in some point Tzeentch also, should be getting units that are inspired by the AoS ones, but rebranded and made to fit with the older Fantasy ones.

For Dechala I'd see the units roster to end up as follow:

Druchii Anointed Corsair Lord: Light Duellist, use a lot of poisons and has some small ranged poison attack.
Mount: Horse, Cold One, Deamon Mount

Druchii Anointed Hero

Units:

Anointed Shades:
- Bow and Twin Swords
- Blissbard and Twin Swords
- Bow and Great Sword

Blissbard Seeker: Ranged cav
Sickblade Seeker: Melee cav

Set piece:
Blissbard Crossbow
Special Chaos Spawn

Considering that CA balked at the idea of Shar'Tor because he was AoS and their refusal to acknowledge they used the AoS model of the Keeper of Secrets, I wouldn't hold my breath for this, but it certainly would fit in the roster.

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 · March 31

SerPus#7395 said:

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 said:
I mean we already got a Dark Elf in the roster that has no TT ties to the Storm of Chaos so
The Cultist of Slaanesh isn't copypasted Dark Elf unit that is sold as DLC. That's the point.

But there's no way of telling that's going to happen if we get more Dark Elves for Slaanesh, if they are straight 1:1 then we can complain.

SerPus#7395 · March 31

TheWattman#7460 said:
I would have saved Pleasureseekers for Styrkaar, they're both mortal so it doesn't thematically matter one way or the other, its just that Styrkaar actually rides one.

Daemonettes on Daemonic mounts are mortal? What? Or are you talking about Dechala?

LennoxPoodle#1380 · March 31

This makes me sad. Dechala should've really been the Slaaneshi CoC with Azazel being reserved for Slaanesh proper. She has her own (very chariot focused) warband after all.

TheWattman#7460 · March 31

SerPus#7395 said:
Daemonettes on Daemonic mounts are mortal? What? Or are you talking about Dechala?

Dechala and Styrkaar, sorry. Both mortal lords, either riding a Slaanesh snake or are a snake themselves, so it doesn't matter which the Pleasureseekers comes with. I put them with Styrkaar.

SerPus#7395 · March 31

TheWattman#7460 said:
Dechala and Styrkaar, sorry. Both mortal lords, either riding a Slaanesh snake or are a snake themselves, so it doesn't matter which the Pleasureseekers comes with. I put them with Styrkaar.

And that's why your Dechala DLC is basically "bunch of already existing Dark Elves units plus Chaos Spawn of Slaanesh(again)".

Yakinton#1016 · March 31

No more HL Lords until Finubar are in game as an LL

Heretical_Cactus#7598 · March 31

TheWattman#7460 said:

Considering that CA balked at the idea of Shar'Tor because he was AoS and their refusal to acknowledge they used the AoS model of the Keeper of Secrets, I wouldn't hold my breath for this, but it certainly would fit in the roster.

Did they outright say that they didn't use Shar'Tor because he didn't really have a presence in Fantasy.

As for the KoS, we don't really need their acknowledgement of it or not. Either they did or they didn't

MalalTheRenegade#5644 · March 31

Pretty sure Styrkaar will never get a DLC, for all the (undeserved) hate that Masque gets on this forum, it is a much more interesting character than Styrkaar. So if the Masque is just a FLC then Styrkaar shouldn't be added at all.

About the Aislinn vs. Dechala DLC:

- With Styrkaar outside of the scope, Dechala would be accompanied by a better roster (including Pleasureseekers that she will probably buff).

- Storywise: We already got leaks about a HE expedition which lost an artefact in the sea. Retrieving this artefact seems to be a good starting point for the rivalry.

- Updatewise: Instead of a HE rework (which could still be done in parallel), I'd prefer a "High Seas" rework giving VCoast-like ships to specific lords (Wulfrik, Alberic, Aislinn, etc.).

- In IE: Aislinn should start close to Tor Elithis (if added on the map) or otherwise in any former HE colony (preferably in the East). Dechala should start in Naggaroth, her first enemy would be Alith which would easily lead to thematic alliances with Morathi and other DE to invade Ulthuan later. It is also an opportunity to put her against Valkia.

- Mechanics: Aislinn should get some rewards from securing the Seas or reclaiming former colonies. A copy-pasted caravan mechanic but on sea would work (people might get tired of this though).
Dechala is tricky. I can't come up with anything.

Maedrethnir#1968 · March 31

No, thank you, but I'm not interested. I would much prefer if the final HE LP end the race on a high note,
The Asur should get Asuryan-themed DLC.

The Chosen and the Denied

The Phoenix King Finubar the Seafarer offers a flexibility of naval and land forces focus, and ties all the remaining potential characters.

https://www.artstation.com/artwork/el0ndY

I would replace the outdated Sea Elf Wardancers with Guardians, the high tier White Lions.
The Anointed of Asuryan's inclusion is mandatory.

As for the Slaanesh side, it requires at least two flashy units that wouldn't be just the Druchii remodels.

Heretical_Cactus#7598 · March 31

Also Styrkarr shouldn't be a LL, and nothing stop CA and GW from making a brand new unit lines. One that could end up being used by the Old World anyway

TheWattman#7460 · March 31

Heretical_Cactus#7598 said:
Did they outright say that they didn't use Shar'Tor because he didn't really have a presence in Fantasy.

As for the KoS, we don't really need their acknowledgement of it or not. Either they did or they didn't

Yeah, they said it was because he is an AoS character, not a fantasy character.

Heretical_Cactus#7598 said:
Also Styrkarr shouldn't be a LL, and nothing stop CA and GW from making a brand new unit lines. One that could end up being used by the Old World anyway

Why shouldn't Styrkaar be a LL?

MalalTheRenegade#5644 said:
Pretty sure Styrkaar will never get a DLC, for all the (undeserved) hate that Masque gets on this forum, it is a much more interesting character than Styrkaar. So if the Masque is just a FLC then Styrkaar shouldn't be added at all.

About the Aislinn vs. Dechala DLC:

- With Styrkaar outside of the scope, Dechala would be accompanied by a better roster (including Pleasureseekers that she will probably buff).

- Storywise: We already got leaks about a HE expedition which lost an artefact in the sea. Retrieving this artefact seems to be a good starting point for the rivalry.

- Updatewise: Instead of a HE rework (which could still be done in parallel), I'd prefer a "High Seas" rework giving VCoast-like ships to specific lords (Wulfrik, Alberic, Aislinn, etc.).

- In IE: Aislinn should start close to Tor Elithis (if added on the map) or otherwise in any former HE colony (preferably in the East). Dechala should start in Naggaroth, her first enemy would be Alith which would easily lead to thematic alliances with Morathi and other DE to invade Ulthuan later. It is also an opportunity to put her against Valkia.

- Mechanics: Aislinn should get some rewards from securing the Seas or reclaiming former colonies. A copy-pasted caravan mechanic but on sea would work (people might get tired of this though).
Dechala is tricky. I can't come up with anything.

I don't hate the Masque per se, but I feel like if a Monogod vs Monogod is not an option (obviously against Khorne), the Masque doesn't have a fitting rivalry to be put in. Plus there is only one Daemon unit left unless AoS stuff is used.

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 · March 31

Maedrethnir#1968 said:

No, thank you, but I'm not interested. I would much prefer if the final HE LP end the race on a high note,
The Asur should get Asuryan-themed DLC.

The Chosen and the Denied

The Phoenix King Finubar the Seafarer offers a flexibility of naval and land forces focus, and ties all the remaining potential characters.

Isn’t every other character land focused tho, would rather get a full focus than a half. Anointed can always be an FLC.

Besides Sea Helm and Merwyrm fit Aislinn more. Tyrion rules land military, while Aislinn rules sea military. Finubar has no interest in it.

McRab#9894 · March 31

About the high elves, the missing units are all the sea/lothern stuff:
Skycutters,
Merwynn,
A unit of spearmen/hallbardears with trident that i forgot the name.
Seahelm (H)

We have also the Anointed (L) ridding phoenix

Named:
Aislin
Caradryan
Khoril

Aislin fit the most for a dlc character when Caradryan seems to be a better flc LL.
Khoril will be the perfect LH bodyguard.

Maedrethnir#1968 · March 31

NickCageStoleMyFace#5594 said:

Maedrethnir#1968 said:

No, thank you, but I'm not interested. I would much prefer if the final HE LP end the race on a high note,
The Asur should get Asuryan-themed DLC.

The Chosen and the Denied

The Phoenix King Finubar the Seafarer offers a flexibility of naval and land forces focus, and ties all the remaining potential characters.
Isn’t every other character land focused tho, would rather get a full focus than a half. Anointed can always be an FLC.

Besides Sea Helm and Merwyrm fit Aislinn more. Tyrion rules land military, while Aislinn rules sea military. Finubar has no interest in it.

The thing is that the LP will land on the RoC map, which is ill-suited for strictly naval campaigns. It offers no freedom of expansion that the water-based LLs are known for in the game.

Finubar the Seafarer was born in Lothern, rules from Lothern and is very much connected to maritime culture of the place. In addition, he has strong ties with Cothique. There is no sea unit that wouldn't fit him. Finubar has an interest in adventures, and the Amulet of Sunfire hangs on the horizon. Game2 established a connection between the Blessings of Lileath and the Phoenix Kings. The very name of the jewelry piece fits the profile.

His LP would be first and foremost about exploring Asuryan and the Phoenix King themes.

SerPus#7395 · March 31

TheWattman#7460 said:
Why shouldn't Styrkaar be a LL?

Why should he be an LL?

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