Balancing the Warriors of Chaos

Passthechips#4366

So I think this comes up often enough but I don’t think I’ve seen a thread on it. We all know that the WoC rework, while fantastic, made the WoC incredibly overtuned. It’s to the point where it’s hard not to lose.

So how would you like to see WoC nerfed? Are there any problem areas in specific?

Personally I believe everything costs too little. It’s trivial to upgrade your units to higher tiers and mark them.

Furthermore while I like the new Warband system, it’s way to easy to get higher tier units through it. It invalidates your buildings which you don’t even have to upgrade.

Then there’s also the vassal system that, while cool, has a few issues as well that are probably more about the vassal system than WoC specifically.

Bobsyourankle#7897

My main complaint is how hard it is to finish them off. With the mechanics as they currently are the armies tend to wander far and wide but unless you can snuff out their fortresses (often protected by long distances and attrition) they will be back, after a defeat, with a full stack in 5 or 6 turns.

As much as I didn't like the old horde mechanics, at least when an army was destroyed, it hurt them. Now it feels like nothing more than a minor inconvenience.

Surge_2#1464

I'm increasingly convinced that the issue is the North. You have this vast territory, combined with free buffer satellite states (Vassel's auto created) and affinity from other Chaos factions. The Chaos factions are too friendly, and the region is too 'safe'.

Its very easy to just casually stomp around up there, while the AI decimates itself against Festus, until you roll down with 4 or 5 Dark Fortress buildings and 3 or 4 vassals, and at that point its war won via economic dominance, AR strength, and unique recruitment mechanics.

If anything, the campaigns need to behave more like Festus, having war declared on you from all sides, with more challenging collection of Dark Fortresses.

Not to say Festus isnt crazy strong, but I'm at the point where having the armies be crazy strong is a feature of the franchise not a bug.

Neodeinos#5871

Dark Fortresses make way too much money imo.

#28957

Neodeinos#5871 said:

Dark Fortresses make way too much money imo.

Income from Dark Fortresses should be reduced and more Dark Fortressess should be placed around the map. At least in major faction capitals and some important settlements, especially in the south.

AfricanArtHistory#4640

One of the big impacts on faction balance is that since garrisons and walls have basically been removed the chaos factions have an easier job staying on the offensive. The order factions tend to be more defensive in nature, and the various siege reworks have consistently nerfed that. At this point it's much easier to secure a region by staying out of cities than trying to hold them - a reality that strongly supports chaos' raid- and sack-based strategy.

Surge_2#1464

Neodeinos#5871 said:

Dark Fortresses make way too much money imo.

Have you seen the upkeep cost on a 'normal' not even doom stack?

Dark Fortresses need to generate cash, its just too easy to build a critical mass of them AND have buffer states protecting you.

Neodeinos#5871

Surge_2#1464 said:

Neodeinos#5871 said:

Dark Fortresses make way too much money imo.

Have you seen the upkeep cost on a 'normal' not even doom stack?

Dark Fortresses need to generate cash, its just too easy to build a critical mass of them AND have buffer states protecting you.

Yes I've seen the upkeep but even if you don't take the Dark Fortresses it's not really an issue as you also make **** of cash from fighting battles and sacking settlements.

GBone#4408

Given the state of WE and BM, being ludicrously OP seems to be the new normal for reworks.

Rheingold#6691

Easiest solution which I have said before - the fortresses and their positions are most of the problem. Take half of them and move them into the centre of the map. The capitols could become dark fortresses. Having access to 2 fortresses rather than 5 or more will make a massive difference. And Chaos would have a real incentive to invade.
One reason Festus has a great start is the lack of fortresses around him.

Passthechips#4366

Rheingold#6691 said:

Easiest solution which I have said before - the fortresses and their positions are most of the problem. Take half of them and move them into the centre of the map. The capitols could become dark fortresses. Having access to 2 fortresses rather than 5 or more will make a massive difference. And Chaos would have a real incentive to invade.
One reason Festus has a great start is the lack of fortresses around him.

I don’t think spreading the fortresses is the only solution. I’m steamrolling after a few turns pretty much.

Surge_2#1464

Passthechips#4366 said:

Rheingold#6691 said:

Easiest solution which I have said before - the fortresses and their positions are most of the problem. Take half of them and move them into the centre of the map. The capitols could become dark fortresses. Having access to 2 fortresses rather than 5 or more will make a massive difference. And Chaos would have a real incentive to invade.
One reason Festus has a great start is the lack of fortresses around him.

I don’t think spreading the fortresses is the only solution. I’m steamrolling after a few turns pretty much.

So, the question here is why.

1: The forces around you are lesser.
2: You only have to account for 1 at a time, as you mulch the minor factions of the north, or subjugate another WoC Lord.
3: You can afford more than the AI.

3 is only true if you are playing on anything below VH, or you have multiple fortresses.
2 is true if you are in the north, because of the reasons I've noted.
1 is true if you are...well its always true because the AI sucks.

The problem is how many forces you can collect quickly in the north. Its an economic and safety issue.

Rheingold#6691

Passthechips#4366 said:

Rheingold#6691 said:

Easiest solution which I have said before - the fortresses and their positions are most of the problem. Take half of them and move them into the centre of the map. The capitols could become dark fortresses. Having access to 2 fortresses rather than 5 or more will make a massive difference. And Chaos would have a real incentive to invade.
One reason Festus has a great start is the lack of fortresses around him.

I don’t think spreading the fortresses is the only solution. I’m steamrolling after a few turns pretty much.

Not the only problem sure but its the biggest offender. Essentially they are unassailable - the ai simply can't put them under any pressure. Also CA have a habit of either over nerfing or creating busted op factions/units/mechanics. They don't do subtlety very well. So WoC like some other factions need a nerf, but without making them not fun. Moving half the fortresses would essentially nerf them without breaking them. Festus is still fun, still op (he shouldn't get Kugaths plague cauldron in its entirety - its unfair to Nurgle- but thats a separate issue.) but waaaay more balanced than say Vilitch. who can't possibly lose. And thats not taking into account Archie, Siggie and the others who are even stronger.
It is a good compromise and force Chaos to come out of their comfort zone and actually invade.

But sure its not the only solution but its a nerf without actually nerfing them.

mewade44#6520

I think easy fix is no instant recruiting of troops.

endurstonehelm#6102

It kind of varies by the warriors of chaos lord you choose and whether you invade the southlands or stay in the north.

Staying in the north is easy, invading the south gets more difficult.

Fingolfin_the-Golden#2157

Passthechips#4366 said:

Rheingold#6691 said:

Easiest solution which I have said before - the fortresses and their positions are most of the problem. Take half of them and move them into the centre of the map. The capitols could become dark fortresses. Having access to 2 fortresses rather than 5 or more will make a massive difference. And Chaos would have a real incentive to invade.
One reason Festus has a great start is the lack of fortresses around him.

I don’t think spreading the fortresses is the only solution. I’m steamrolling after a few turns pretty much.

It’s not just a Dark Fortress problem, they are a bit concentrated and the money is a bit much.

But steamrolling after turn 8 is common in most races in wh3.
Turn 60 and the long victory usually rolls out.
The entire pace is fast for wh3. CA prefer the arcade style these days.

Nitros14#7973

Dark Fortresses are too numerous and they generate way too much money.

Warriors of Chaos should be running a sack economy not passively making enormous income without fighting.

Serkelet#1834

While the warriors of chaos are too strong for the ai opposition to handle, this has not been my experience in multiplayer campaign.

In fact, against players, warriors are at a huge disadvantage. Order factions, once they have built up their cities, can spam highly experienced elite units. The warrior player, if he loses his starting doomstack at any point, he's pretty much stuck with a few warriors, a few knights and marauder spam, which renders the order side's victory inevitable.

I will say that warriors do not need a nerf. They need instead a better recovery rate. Maybe have dark fortress buildings give stackable experience on recruitment factionwide, so if you have enough Dark Fortresses, at least you can come back with armies of warriors and a few chosen, giving you a better recovery chance.

unomanderus#7528

Surge_2#1464 said:

I'm increasingly convinced that the issue is the North. You have this vast territory, combined with free buffer satellite states (Vassel's auto created) and affinity from other Chaos factions. The Chaos factions are too friendly, and the region is too 'safe'.

Its very easy to just casually stomp around up there, while the AI decimates itself against Festus, until you roll down with 4 or 5 Dark Fortress buildings and 3 or 4 vassals, and at that point its war won via economic dominance, AR strength, and unique recruitment mechanics.

If anything, the campaigns need to behave more like Festus, having war declared on you from all sides, with more challenging collection of Dark Fortresses.

Not to say Festus isnt crazy strong, but I'm at the point where having the armies be crazy strong is a feature of the franchise not a bug.

I have always thought that Norscan Dwarfs should get a buff (technically they got a small one), like maybe give them a second faction (Kraka Ornsmotek) so that Chaos spends more time trying to kill them off, which buffs kislev which leads to more dead chaos. I feel like sometimes I see Katarin do well but this is balanced by Kostaltyn and daddy getting killed off. If they had more friendly factions to rely on that canonically exist in the land of madmen they'd be fine. Norsca itself is bafflingly not well done compared to all the areas around it which are fleshed out with all the little towns and places that exist.

Bayes#3307

Dark fortresses are one thing which if abused are completely broken, but I didnt abuse them and even just the base income from battles is too high. Good news is that I think that is all it would take, just tuning those numbers a bit.

MODIDDLY1#9212

AfricanArtHistory#4640 said:

One of the big impacts on faction balance is that since garrisons and walls have basically been removed the chaos factions have an easier job staying on the offensive. The order factions tend to be more defensive in nature, and the various siege reworks have consistently nerfed that. At this point it's much easier to secure a region by staying out of cities than trying to hold them - a reality that strongly supports chaos' raid- and sack-based strategy.

I have noticed that when I'm at war now, I don't bother building up the settlements or even bothering to defend them until I've wiped the entire enemy faction out. Got tired of playing wack-a-mole and having mid tier enemy armies take out level 3 minor settlements with the garrison building because the garrisons are so weak now.

unomanderus#7528

MODIDDLY1#9212 said:

AfricanArtHistory#4640 said:

One of the big impacts on faction balance is that since garrisons and walls have basically been removed the chaos factions have an easier job staying on the offensive. The order factions tend to be more defensive in nature, and the various siege reworks have consistently nerfed that. At this point it's much easier to secure a region by staying out of cities than trying to hold them - a reality that strongly supports chaos' raid- and sack-based strategy.

I have noticed that when I'm at war now, I don't bother building up the settlements or even bothering to defend them until I've wiped the entire enemy faction out. Got tired of playing wack-a-mole and having mid tier enemy armies take out level 3 minor settlements with the garrison building because the garrisons are so weak now.

However I notice since the AI always turtles the garrisons are the 'right' level of strength for them, of course.

Acerbissimus#3919

When playing I want to feel like there is a chance for me to lose the campaign. I think my biggest issue with WoC is similar to Beastmen: you don't have to worry much about your settlements. In the Beastmen's case, you don't care about your herdstones and lose almost nothing when you lose a herdstone, at least if you have completed a ritual there. The dark fortresses do matter more for WoC, but they're likely to be away from your frontlines, with lots of disposable settlements/settlements belonging to your vassals as buffers. Making dark fortresses less powerful, or in some way making you care about those smaller settlements more, might help.

zhijuncai521#9064

Warriors of Chaos should have some unpleasant and uninhabitable climate since they are no longer horde races.

dogoska#1535

Improvements to garrisons and AI ought to do the trick WoC have a hard time recruiting elite troops. Now if AI Louen was a as invasion happy as he was in Game 2 that would put a lot of pressure on nothern norscans and Belakor.

Captain_Rex#1635

Agreed OP. I never actually build the recruitment buildings since they are entirely obsolete.

dogoska#1535

Captain_Rex#1635 said:

Agreed OP. I never actually build the recruitment buildings since they are entirely obsolete.

They have the same problem as VC why build stuff if corruption and markers are a thing? The buildings are only useful for hero recruitment.

Would be better to get rid of recruitment altogether for those races and make their buildings increase the local and global unit cap at any time.

Robosoldier1#1368

This is frankly not the only problem with chaos.

I've noted this before and its something that really needs to be addressed on the campaign that I think is adding to this problem. Chaos is too friendly with each other.

I get having them being at each others throats might seem like a counterintuitive thing. However that is kinda the point.

Chaos in this world is in an endless game of "the pecking order." Where in some rare cases you get an Archaeon involved and the thorn of chaos turns into a raging storm. Which in the meantime of all that infighting the order factions have time to address immediate problems early-mid game and they actually consolidate and build to be an actual threat.

I personally think the way to resolve this is issue is, all factions in the chaos wastes are "locked" off from the rest of the world by some magical barrier or something (outside the dragon gates). Until either a timer is met or an objective measurement is achieved aka "who is now made top dog." Once that is achieved all chaos factions are immediately vassalized under this "Champions" faction and they launch an all out invasion unto the rest of the world.

Caffynated#2235

I think some of the marked units, especially marauders could be toned down. They're an easy upgrade and turn units that are mediocre into unholy abominations.

I had a bad Skaven ambush with multiple full stacks against one of my newer armies with a lot of marauders and lost it handily. I upgraded the marauders to Khorne and proceeded to wipe the floor with the ambush, lost nothing and most units were still high health.

Marks should be a modest upgrade that makes a unit more specialized, not make the unit a tier or more higher than it was.

WoC could use some rebalancing in autoresolve too. Autoresolve easily won battles that were hard fights if you went onto the battle map. Especially sieges. I stopped fighting sieges because it was always a better outcome to autoresolve, plus WH3 sieges are the worst in the franchise, so who wants to play any more than you have to?

kyle_usmc#4407

I could see them taking a financial nerf, it's actually silly how much money they have, but other than that I would leave them alone.