Skullcracker's and Iron Daemon's seem to be hitting more often than they should

Spellbound1875#4610

Whatever the meta data adjustments were the result seems to be both units doing higher damage values then should be possible with their statline. This seems to primarily occur during the charge animation though I've observed instances with both units (but mostly the Skullcracker) of dealing damage in excess of their WS during sustained combat.

It's easiest to observe into SE's, though against cavalry/monstrous infantry is where the effect seems to have the biggest impact. I tested against the KoS because it has very low armor and with the soulbound upgrade magic attacks ignore the physical resist.

Skullcracker should do at most 475 based on WS and CB.

Irondaemon should do at most 375 based on WS and CB.

This was mostly observed on the charge but could be seen sometimes in sustained combat. I wasn't able to consistently reproduce it but I believe the steam attacks and the train attacks aren't properly splitting the WS value. Usually this just results in around a 50% damage gain into SE's but against cavalry it can get closer to a 150% gain.

Skullcracker

Irondaemon

I think the stat increases were good (could arguably have gone further with the Skullcracker), but the meta data changes are producing inconsistent overperformance which makes adjusting balance difficult. It needs to be further tweaked or reverted.

saweendra#3399

check f expolison attack animation works as a melee attack or a explosion attack i am pretty sure thats the one making fuss

probably can check with other cd arty units since they only have that attack

songoffire#8157

Even if there is a small discrepancy between the unit cards and the actual performance (which is often animation dependent) I don't think it is a good idea to advocate for nerfing units which rarely pay for themselves in actual LB. For once that SE chariots perform decently

I couldn't reproduce your numbers upon charge animation. I don't know what time delay you took to show us these numbers between the contact instant and the measurements. For Skullcracker just after the charge (at the contact instant) I had between 240 -300 damage which seems perfectly fine.

I agree that in sustained melee they perform slightly better than other chariots because of the steam attacks. Is it a problem however ?
I don't think so.

Loupi#8512

i think its similar to what was happening with the dark elf shrines. the riders/train drivers have no specific stats and so default to the same melee weapon as the main chariot

saweendra#3399

Loupi#8512 said:

i think its similar to what was happening with the dark elf shrines. the riders/train drivers have no specific stats and so default to the same melee weapon as the main chariot

drivers have attack animations?

Spellbound1875#4610

songoffire#8157 said:

Even if there is a small discrepancy between the unit cards and the actual performance (which is often animation dependent) I don't think it is a good idea to advocate for nerfing units which rarely pay for themselves in actual LB. For once that SE chariots perform decently

I couldn't reproduce your numbers upon charge animation. I don't know what time delay you took to show us these numbers between the contact instant and the measurements. For Skullcracker just after the charge (at the contact instant) I had between 240 -300 damage which seems perfectly fine.

I agree that in sustained melee they perform slightly better than other chariots because of the steam attacks. Is it a problem however ?
I don't think so.

I'm more concerned with the clear discrepancy in damage performance between unit classes. If it wasn't for that I'd leave it but as is it's a problem.

My screenshots are at the end of the charge animation, about 2 seconds after impact I think. Additional attacks shouldn't be made in that space since collision attacks aren't supposed to apply to non-infantry and the damage numbers are extremely consistent for me. 300ish would be fine (and matches other SE chariots who deal their WS+CB after armor consistently) but that's not what we see.

Bastilean#7242

Could it be collision damage or are you attacking another very_large entity?

songoffire#8157

My screenshots are at the end of the charge animation, about 2 seconds after impact I think. Additional attacks shouldn't be made in that space since collision attacks aren't supposed to apply to non-infantry and the damage numbers are extremely consistent for me. 300ish would be fine (and matches other SE chariots who deal their WS+CB after armor consistently) but that's not what we see

Ok I did manage to reproduce your numbers but not consistently against a GUO. Sometimes I get around 300 damage sometimes around 500.
It is only during the charge animation. In sustained melee Skullcracker did almost every attacks around 300 damage (which is every 8 seconds). Steam attacks (nor collision attacks) do not work on very large entity.

I'm more concerned with the clear discrepancy in damage performance between unit classes. If it wasn't for that I'd leave it but as is it's a problem.

Well the main problem is that other SE chariots are just plainly bad like the exalted seeker chariot. If anything these chariots should strive to perform like the Skullcracker.

i think its similar to what was happening with the dark elf shrines. the riders/train drivers have no specific stats and so default to the same melee weapon as the main chariot

Is it not the same for Grom on his chariot ?

Spellbound1875#4610

Bastilean#7242 said:

Could it be collision damage or are you attacking another very_large entity?

Collision damage shouldn't be able to produce between 200 and 800 damage regardless of target. It caps at 70 per entity and the mass differential isn't high enough to even hit 70 in this context.

5000/1000 mass is a pretty bad starting ratio. With the calculation being roughly 5*18 (assuming both are charging) gets us only a collision power of 90. I'd expect the collision damage we'd get from this is around 22 per entity.

Gorebeast chariots running into goblins have a collision power closer to 22*12 (assuming both are charging) for 264, which isn't enough to consistently hit for max collision damage of 70. The final damage value would be around 52 per entity hit.

If it is collision damage something far more complicated would be going wrong, so I hope it's just an attack issue.

Loupi#8512

saweendra#3399 said:

Loupi#8512 said:

i think its similar to what was happening with the dark elf shrines. the riders/train drivers have no specific stats and so default to the same melee weapon as the main chariot

drivers have attack animations?

i dont think they do, but when i applied the same fix to the skullcracker as to blood cauldron the damage went down shrugs

saweendra#3399

Loupi#8512 said:

saweendra#3399 said:

Loupi#8512 said:

i think its similar to what was happening with the dark elf shrines. the riders/train drivers have no specific stats and so default to the same melee weapon as the main chariot

drivers have attack animations?

i dont think they do, but when i applied the same fix to the skullcracker as to blood cauldron the damage went down shrugs

can you check if its the explosion animation which is probably the one that's doing this if the drivers are not doing any thing.