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Why Shogun 2 fail as e-sports?

zaptirizaptiri Junior MemberPosts: 11Registered Users
edited February 2012 in Total War Eras Multiplayer
Advice to CA (I hope someone reads it from management):

Why does Shogun 2 fail as e-sports?

Like all Total War games, this game has huge potential to be a e-sports trademark like Starcraft 2, Dota etc. but fails due to CA management and ignorance of multiplayer support.

-It has strategy. (player interest)
-It has excitement. (player interest)
-It has player decisions and change of pace during the game. (player interest)
-It has dedicated fan-base. (sponsor interest)
-It has fame, everyone knows total war. (sponsor interest)

If properly cared, game will be more famous, more people will play / watch on live channels, lot's of sponsors and money will be on the line. However, like today, you cannot just setup a multiplayer ladder and leave it like that, you have to monitor it, control it and need to adress balance problems.

Instead CA choose to focus on expansions, DLC's, and other stuff, forgetting the fact that they can earn more money by e-sports than DLC ****.

Blizzard did a ok game with Starcraft 2, but it's never near as good as Total war, Skyrim etc. But still people play more starcraft 2 why? Their developers dedicate time into multiplayer.

Dota was a legend of Warcraft 3, Dota 2? It will be a great game and will come as a monster on e-sports? Even today, the copy cats of Dota does well on e-sports. Is dota 2 a better game than total war? For me no, but their developers dedicate time into multiplayer.

I understand you want to keep Total war as single player, but there is so much potential that you are missing out. You spend tremendous amount of time to design the game, and let it die within 1-2 years. Why?

You need a dedicated team of people that support multiplayer side of the game. This includes administration and control of balance changes, cheats, corner campers, bugged retainers, bugged game mechanics (speed etc.), reset veterans/heros etc. in other words the needs of the multiplayer fan-base.

You don't need to add new stuff and DLC, just fix whatever you have now for the sake of multiplayer fan-base, otherwise Total War will never be within e-sports in the future.

For all those that will answer this thread, don't tell me your stories about 1-2 irrelevant tournaments, or 1-2 famous clans, by e-sports you know what I mean serious, professional gaming that attracts sponsors.

Best Regards,
Post edited by zaptiri on
«13

Comments

  • MrBoBo1MrBoBo1 Senior Member Posts: 441Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    I honestly think they should release a multiplayer focused Total War game as a stand-alone product.
    Perhaps then resources wouldn't be stretched and people would actually try out the MP.
  • davvesodavveso Member Posts: 58Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    CA most do total war to a E-Sport it is so fun!
    I have a tournament so if you want to join:
    http://steamcommunity.com/groups/s2twtg
  • zaptirizaptiri Junior Member Posts: 11Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    davveso wrote: »
    CA most do total war to a E-Sport it is so fun!
    I have a tournament so if you want to join:
    http://steamcommunity.com/groups/s2twtg

    davveso, I applaud your dedication and effort but what I mean in this thread is far greater. E-sports is something else. You cannot fix it by few fan-boy tournaments, how much money are you offering for the winner or a hardware piece maybe? do you have a sponsor to cower this money / hardware reward?

    The interest to fan-boy tournaments will be 10 times lower than professional, and when people lose, they are like whatever, I didn't lose anything. In professional tournaments you would lose money award and fame, so people fight their a-ss off to win the tournaments, that brings more fun and "worthy games to watch".
  • ComangliaComanglia Junior Member Posts: 30Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    1. CA sucks at balancing multiplayer or they take forever to do anything about it
    2. CA rather make DLCs and not worry about the balance of the new units
    3. The average person loves to stoop down to total BS aka cav spam + bow cav or back in the old days Naginata Warrior Monks, Matchlocks, Loan Sword Vets etc..., or just plain bow cav kiting which does take place in some tournaments -_- specifically a person that participated in the Aggony Clan Tournament -_-
  • VersionLangleyVersionLangley Senior Member Posts: 164Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    DLC is the most BS thing that come to total war. Jack Lust posted a CA official statement that dlc was only meant to add extra content and not give the "I win" card, but that a blatant and complete BS. Look at the detail of hattori dlc which come originally with limited edition:
    Special armour for your avatar – this complete set of armour will make your General’s avatar stand out on the battlefield and will reward you with the Bad Omen retainer that affects morale to enemy ashigaru (foot soldier) units, giving you a competitive advantage online.
    For CA team who can't read: "...giving you a competitive advantage...'"!!!

    Same with the rest of the dlc. Every one of them butchered the game. It forced you to buy dlc and without it, you have no competing chance. Every CA fanboys tell me that if you don't like dlc, just don't buy it, but I bet they never play MP, otherwise they don't dish out such **** statement
  • SpectorSpector Senior Member Posts: 750Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Its not CAs fault that they make the DLCs its your fault for buying it.

    All it takes is one person who wants an advantage that he can get, not by playing or learning more about the game, but simply by paying $$$ for it.

    And then all the others follow.
    Playing Total War since the original Shogun
  • Chris lolChris lol Senior Member Posts: 1,436Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Its not CAs fault that they make the DLCs its your fault for buying it.

    All it takes is one person who wants an advantage that he can get, not by playing or learning more about the game, but simply by paying $$$ for it.

    And then all the others follow.

    yes so if they release a DLC stealth bomber, it is OBVIOUSLY fine.

    Srsly one of the least thought through posts i have seen in a long time mate...
  • HaZE7HaZE7 Senior Member Posts: 431Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    CA loves DLC: read easy money.

    How much better would this game be with monthly updates instead of every 3 months?
    The amount of silly, easy-to-fix bugs, that have been ignored is ridiculous.

    We competitive multi-player fans are being ignored.

    Thank you for the december patch. It was the best one yet. But now it is almost March with nothing more done.
  • Valkyria BloodlineValkyria Bloodline Senior Member Posts: 215Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    I am going to semi-disagree

    CA has listened to the community and balanced out many aspects of multiplayer, but bare in mind, with every balancing, another OP'ed factor will come into play. It's almost a never-ending cycle. If you have not played Shogun 2: Total War nearly, since the beginning of release. Then you have an invalid clause; meaning, that your post carry little weight.

    What I do agree, is the part in News & Announcement Section where they asked the community what we would like to see in the game and "RESET HERO/VETS" has been said countless of times. Nothing happened, as of yet. Yes, there are still bugged out retainers, and CA has not fixed all of them; although, it's just a few nowadays. Speed works, problem is, it's only a slight amount; therefore, can be considered useless. Only adds .5 per level.
    The only cheat I know of now, is known in the community as "Drophacking."
    Bugged Mechanics: Ladder, Replay, Scare Ability (I do not know if it works, or the radius is so small).

    Let me say, DLC in my opinion was great to add; although, I believe attendants are a little bit to effective for their cost as well as Nag. Warrior Monk Calvary are a little bit to effective as well, in a sense 17 Bonus Vs. Calvary = Really? Should be 15 like the rest and that Monk Shine + 2 attack to all monk units should not affect Monk Calvary Unit. That's all.

    Balancing Generals need to happen. Leadership is to darn powerful; especially, with the same fighting capabilities as a regular melee general.

    Siege Battles in Multiplayer are useless, to much power to the attacker than the defender.

    Thus Far, the game is of most balance; on the other hand, understand CA's target market. All, I can say, once FOTS releases, I hope CA can add one final balancing & fixing bugs patch to multiplayer.
  • MakeNineMakeNine Senior Member Posts: 270Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    HaZE7 wrote: »
    Thank you for the december patch. It was the best one yet. But now it is almost March with nothing more done.

    The next 6 month patch intervals will be for FOTS, not Shogun 2. I guess Shogun 2 won't be patched again, it's the same for all previous TW games. For example there are still bugs all the way back to Rome that were never fixed and even typos in the unit names (Napoleon TW)
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  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKPosts: 36,073Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    edited February 2012
    I'm fairly sure one of the CA staff mentioned a Shogun 2 patch alongside the launch of FOTS, back when FOTS was announced.

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  • Valkyria BloodlineValkyria Bloodline Senior Member Posts: 215Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    I'm fairly sure one of the CA staff mentioned a Shogun 2 patch alongside the launch of FOTS, back when FOTS was announced.

    Interesting, and it would be great news if it is confirmed!
  • HaZE7HaZE7 Senior Member Posts: 431Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Keeping up the 3-4 month patch precedent that has been set.

    As far as I can remember there have been 3 patches. The patch around the first month that fixed some very important things like alt+f4 to negate the games result. The patch in mid-late september that nerfed swords/matchlocks. And the patch in early December that nerfed retainers and fixed matchlocks. Am I missing a 4th that happened during the summer ?

    Were they all con-current with DLC ?
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Right you mentioned starcraft, I think the main reasons that succeeded while shogun failed are:
    1)it had a wildly successful prelude, Starcraft 1 and particularly brood war launched stratergies as an esport.
    2)it has a much larger fanbase, over 1 M people can be logged into battlenet at one time.
    3)Blizzard is so much larger it is able to release far more regular updates and thorough bug checks. Glitches have been a hazard of TW's from the dawn of time.
    4) Blizzard doesn't listen to every forum goer who is crying for a nerf and definatly doesnt overreact, this means the game stays stable and balanced.
    5) for anyone who watched the early Tosa cup games, high level play in TWs can often be BORING with two people trying to force the other to attack his spearwall.:mad:
  • HaZE7HaZE7 Senior Member Posts: 431Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    4) Blizzard doesn't listen to every forum goer who is crying for a nerf and definatly doesnt overreact, this means the game stays stable and balanced.
    This.

    CA is notorious for swinging the nerf-bat much too hard. Nerf's and Buff's need to be done in small increments.

    Loneswords as an example; were capped / increased in cost / upgrades reduced / retainers reduced. I do agree with capping units such as bow cav and great guard, but loanswords? An extra band-aid to a problem that could have been fixed much easier (and poor Katanas took a hit with the upgrades and retainers too, leaving them unusable in the wake of October-November Nag spams).
  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    zaptiri wrote: »
    Advice to CA (I hope someone reads it from management):

    Why does Shogun 2 fail as e-sports?

    I guess cause all total war titles are designed for Singleplayer. The Multiplayer was just a "add to" with minor priority. With Shogun 2 it changed, some 10.000 are active during a year. The Avatar Conquest was a nice idea to drag people to MP and got good response and a fixed playerbase up for it.
    But perhaps next title .. not FotS may be e-sports like, if CA want that. But without follow basic rules there will be no e-Sport Total war Title i agree on your Posting.
    I just guess CA dont want a TW game to be e-Sport Title, its not designed for it. Thats it. End of Arguments.
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • mustachewarfaremustachewarfare Senior Member Posts: 1,092Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    E sports shouldn't take decade to finish a game. Total war is a game to enjoy not like starcraft 2 where there is nothing new except extreme dedication toward balancing. That is one of the reason starcraft 2 is more competitive and feels like a sport. If something in total war is not balanced, imo it's perfectly fine because war is not fair to start with.
  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    This is pretty funny.
    How can Shogun 2 fail as a e-sport when it doesn't even qualify as one? Don't you first have to try at something before you can fail at something? :P
  • VersionLangleyVersionLangley Senior Member Posts: 164Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    No grassy plain = no e-sport for CA
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    HaZE7 wrote: »
    This.

    CA is notorious for swinging the nerf-bat much too hard. Nerf's and Buff's need to be done in small increments.

    Loneswords as an example; were capped / increased in cost / upgrades reduced / retainers reduced. I do agree with capping units such as bow cav and great guard, but loanswords? An extra band-aid to a problem that could have been fixed much easier (and poor Katanas took a hit with the upgrades and retainers too, leaving them unusable in the wake of October-November Nag spams).

    Especially when a soft cap or changing the veteran system was all that was needed and would have prevented future imbalances.

    oh and langley if grassy flat lands is all thats holding Shogun back why wasn't Rome an E-sport

    and ****y shogun does qualify as a potential esport as;
    Electronic Sports, abbreviated e-Sports is used as a general term to describe the play of video games competitively
    tornaments fit that role even if they aren't so popularized to have prizes or sponsors which is what the thread is about.
  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Nope.
    Esport specifically involves money now, and lots of it.
    Sorry to burst your geek bubble. :)
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Nope.
    Esport specifically involves money now, and lots of it.
    Sorry to burst your geek bubble. :)

    This has been mentioned to everyone who suggested shogun was an Esport what is your point
    edit: My post regarding yours was to point out Total war games have the potential to BECOME Esports
  • daniudaniu Senior Member Posts: 2,081Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    It's very simple why S2 fails as an esport: because it's really boring to watch.
    I can spend hours watching sc2 casts although I don't even play the game (well finished sp campaign but that's it).
    ETW and NTW were a little better, but Shogun 2 battle casts just suck. Not neccessarily because of the casters, there are a few good ones out there, but because of the game. Balance doesn't even go into it.

    With the two fixed armies up against each other, there is no strategic dynamics whatsoever; all there is on the strategic level is choice of units and that can't be changed anymore once in battle. All reactions to the opponent's actions are tactical. In sc2, people will switch their build depending on the situation, making the whole game much more multidimensional.
  • exorgistis77exorgistis77 Senior Member Posts: 1,309Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    shogun 2 is charismatic . it has drawbacks of course but it lets you create so many workin builds and units that really make it a somewhat engrossing and exciting experience . Takes real skill too but unfortunately it is very vulnerable to exploits and certain army builds. This advantage it has the variety, is his Achillion fterna , its weak point. No matter how good a player , he will lose to a stronger or simply, a counter army especially on a given map..
    Zarganis
  • zaptirizaptiri Junior Member Posts: 11Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    daniu wrote: »
    It's very simple why S2 fails as an esport: because it's really boring to watch.
    I can spend hours watching sc2 casts although I don't even play the game (well finished sp campaign but that's it).
    ETW and NTW were a little better, but Shogun 2 battle casts just suck. Not neccessarily because of the casters, there are a few good ones out there, but because of the game. Balance doesn't even go into it.

    With the two fixed armies up against each other, there is no strategic dynamics whatsoever; all there is on the strategic level is choice of units and that can't be changed anymore once in battle. All reactions to the opponent's actions are tactical. In sc2, people will switch their build depending on the situation, making the whole game much more multidimensional.

    You got good points there, however don't you evolve your strategy and unit choices based on map? Look at the first drafts of SC2 e-sports games, where people didn't care about maps. But time after time people learn and now maps and choke points have direct impact on player's choice of strategy. I believe if there was money on the line, people would do different choices, not only katana core and go.

    When you are thinking, remember to put yourself in CA developers shoes' consider that you could do anything to change the game, I'm sure they could adapt it to e-sports with various balance changes, map changes, and settings, would be the first strategy game on e-sports scene. Being the first always brings lots of advantages, not to forget the fact that e-sports is one of the best marketing methods out there, spreading the name of the game even further.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 16,224Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Right you mentioned starcraft, I think the main reasons that succeeded while shogun failed are:
    1)it had a wildly successful prelude, Starcraft 1 and particularly brood war launched stratergies as an esport.
    2)it has a much larger fanbase, over 1 M people can be logged into battlenet at one time.
    3)Blizzard is so much larger it is able to release far more regular updates and thorough bug checks. Glitches have been a hazard of TW's from the dawn of time.
    4) Blizzard doesn't listen to every forum goer who is crying for a nerf and definatly doesnt overreact, this means the game stays stable and balanced.
    5) for anyone who watched the early Tosa cup games, high level play in TWs can often be BORING with two people trying to force the other to attack his spearwall.:mad:
    6) Total War games are in comparison more sophisticated and complicated than Blizzard's RTS games from a technical perspective.

    Corrected action is the most sincere form of apology.
  • (Darkelf) Temper(Darkelf) Temper Senior Member Posts: 541Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    TW had potential for Esports with S1 and even MTW1.I say potential and not that they were fit,because the developer wasn't interested in going that direction.

    They have always been too slow with patches,too hard on balancing,More interested in making a new title and too quick to throw new content in the mix without testing,while some content is even exclusive for those that pay.

    Exactly the opposite of what makes a good pro game.

    Just how it is I'm afraid.Let's just make best with what we got.
  • GrudgeNLGrudgeNL Senior Member Posts: 7,178Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Come on guys. TW was never meant for e-sports. CA always focussed on Singleplayer. It wasn't until Napoleon and Shogun 2, they started to add better Multiplayer components. Give it time. Shogun 2's multiplayer is brand new in the whole TW saga and is the closest thing you can get for ranked competitive Multiplayer in any TW game.

    The avatar conquest map is a step closer to a more solid experience. Don't blame Game Designers for Multiplayer mistakes, when they only released proper multiplayer for one single title. I'd say, have patience on this one. CA is learning more and more about Multiplayer. Maybe in the next Grand TW title, we'll see a Multiplayer partially dedicated for e-sports.
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  • Sima Zhong DaSima Zhong Da Senior Member Posts: 532Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    GrudgeNL wrote: »
    I'd say, have patience on this one. CA is learning more and more about Multiplayer. Maybe in the next Grand TW title, we'll see a Multiplayer partially dedicated for e-sports.

    「Problem is, CA is releasing FoTS in March, I don't think multiplayer will be substantially improved by then if the game it is based on is already bugged to hell and back.」
    Modern war is conducted against an out-group by powerful people who have an exaggerated opinion of themselves and their degree of morality, are overconfident, often have an illusion of control, enjoy taking risks and are almost always male. - Robert Trivers, Deceit and Self-deception
  • RTKAbuRTKAbu Senior Member Posts: 1,427Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    daelin4 wrote: »
    6) Total War games are in comparison more sophisticated and complicated than Blizzard's RTS games from a technical perspective.

    No..
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