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Why Shogun 2 fail as e-sports?

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  • naishonaisho Senior Member USAPosts: 3,425Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Let me preface my coming post by saying, I did not want to go this deep into the gameplay mechanics because it is time-consuming but given that that people either disagree with my prior posts and did not fully understand I will explain further.

    For the purpose I will only be talking about MP not SP because with TW there would be a far expanded dialogue because its SP functions would need extra steps.


    The basics of MP for SC and Shogun 2 side by side comparison. (Strategy we will talk about at the end of post)
    The three category mechanics in any battle are thus.

    Development/deployment phase
    Battle Continuation phase
    Victory phase

    Development/deployment phase (in any game of MP there is the opening of the game that normally lasts about 10-15 minutes)

    SC: Opening Game ( a game starts with several basic things that are to done mechanic wise to set up the player)
    1. Race/Nation selection (determines basic internal strategy)
    2. Resource gathering (a requirement of the game)
    3. Base Building (a mechanic that enables the next 2 mechanics)
    4. Unit Recruitment (required for victory)
    5. Tech Tree (enhances possibility of victory)
    6. Fog of War

    Shogun 2: Opening Game
    1. General ability selection (not required but helpful)
    2. Retainer selection (not required but helpful)
    3. Unit recruitment (not required but helpful) (Income or money distribution I am not separating out as while a limiting factor is not gathered on MP it is just given to you)
    4. General (required) (Yes the general is a mechanic pivotal to the game because he is the focus point of several other mechanics)
    5. Troop positioning (required)

    Comparison: SC arguably is the more complex game at this point, however, this is because we are talking about only MP. The MP portion of SC is almost entirely the exact same as the SP portion so no loss of mechanics occurs which is the case in Shogun 2.

    Battle Continuation Mechanics

    SC: Middle Game
    1. Resource gathering
    2. Base Building
    3. Troop recruitment
    4. Tech research
    5. Troop movement (required for victory)
    6. Troop combat (required for victory)
    7. Map exploration (removal of Fog of War)
    8. Height visual modifier (removal of Fog of War)
    (there are probably a few I missed but this is in basically the core game)

    Shogun 2: Middle Game (The continuation mechanics on shogun 2 is really difficult to describe as they are really mechanic modifiers in that they modify how units behave but they are crucial to the construction of the game we call shogun 2)
    1. Troop movement
    2. Fatigue (This is a separate mechanic that kinda acts like a container it refills with time if you don't use it)
    3. Running (depletes fatigue at a fast rate
    4. Walking (depletes fatigue at a slow or = rate of replenishment)
    5. Resting (restores fatigue)
    6. Ammo (acts like fatigue in that it is a container for an action)
    7. Missile units attack (uses ammo)
    8. Unit depletion (this actually depletes total ammo of a unit, for example each individual soldier in a unit has 20 arrows if a soldier dies all 20 arrows allotted to it are lost, if that unit has fired a few shots in which case a lesser amount of arrows will be lost.The percentage lost is equal to the total number of arrows that have been used.)
    9. Morale (Acts like a container but can be over filled)
    10. Morale modification (This is done through skills or the general character even the loss of a general modifies this, there are even numerous other factions which modify this, such as height, troop quality, officer in unit loss even negatively modifies this)
    11. Flat ground (no positive or negative modifiers)
    12. Upward slope (increased fatigue used, lower charge values)
    13. Downward slope (Increased speed, normal fatigue use, higher charge values)
    14. Forests (increase fatigue use for certain units, lower arrow accuracy, can be hidden)
    15. Charge (a one shot mechanic)
    16. Combat (I separate out charge from combat as charge occurs before combat)
    17. Anti-cav (combat modifier)
    18. Dojos

    Comparison: This is where the differences between SC and Shogun 2 can really be seen. In SC what you do mechanically in the development is nearly exactly what you do for the rest of the game. For shogun 2 many of the mechanics are entirely optional. The forest, hill, mountain, cliff, skills are entirely optional. This is why shogun 2 is so complex it is all the modifiers to its base game, I dont know and dont care to count the numbers of individual modifiers in this game.

    Victory Phase: (very self explanatory)

    SC:
    1. Destroy all enemies (deathmatch)

    Shogun 2:
    1. Rout all enemies (overwhelm the morale with negative modifiers)

    Comparison: end result victory although it is very difficult to know what actually caused the victory in shogun 2, meaning, which modifier is the one that did it.


    Strategy: This is basically how the mechanics given to the player are made use of to achieve victory. In SC how a player achieves victory is entirely dependent upon what the player focuses on. You can build towers to victory, zerg rush, win through attrition, a sneaky counter attack. Shogun 2 doesnt have this kind of choice structure. To win, the player is making use of numbers or what we can call the "modifier's game". This is why Shogun 2 fails as an e-sport. The modifiers are so numerous and powerful, the player who uses those modifiers more effectively does so in the first minute of full army contact. Even if we as players are watching this battle and cannot see the modifiers actively, we know intrinsically who is winning.
    1---/\__/\
    1=(O-"-O)=/\
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    1---| \-/ \-_ /
    1--( Neko )

    Naisho the Neko

    "You have raised assorted issues under what might be termed a “I-don’t-like-it because-I-say-it’s-not-historical” banner. This isn't quite the same as "justified", I'm sorry to say." -MikeB
  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Shogun 2:
    SC:
    1. Destroy all enemies (deathmatch)

    1. Rout all enemies (overwhelm the morale with negative modifiers)

    Comparison: end result victory although it is very difficult to know what actually caused the victory in shogun 2, meaning, which modifier is the one that did it.
    You did a comparison and dont know how? :D Just watch one line above.

    Now i get your intention. Sure its less transparent for the casual player, why he lost.
    There is a tooltip that shows whats happen on battlefield.

    So much typing and just say:
    SC is better cause more simple and transparent. TW Titles fail for e-sport, cause they are too complex.

    Your not pointed out demand:
    Abandom all features that makes this game, what it is, after 10 Years of developing and community based enhancements.
    And get a factory and tech tree to battlefield. Go Mainstream!

    Did i missunderstood?
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • naishonaisho Senior Member USAPosts: 3,425Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Basically you got the idea. Only thing I would add is that how you destroy the enemy in SC is entirely variable. I have seen people win just by building towers.

    and no I do not consider SC the better game. I am merely saying TW is not built to be a E-Sport and I am content with that :P

    Edit: Also just trying to help you guys separate strategy from mechanics. The mechanics that are preventing TW from being a e-sport. Which is the reason for the long post so you can see the internals of the games for comparisons. No matter how well we balance TW it will not change the mechanics of the game and make it a good e-sport. (also I love TW as a series)
    1---/\__/\
    1=(O-"-O)=/\
    1--- / | | \--/ -|
    1---| \-/ \-_ /
    1--( Neko )

    Naisho the Neko

    "You have raised assorted issues under what might be termed a “I-don’t-like-it because-I-say-it’s-not-historical” banner. This isn't quite the same as "justified", I'm sorry to say." -MikeB
  • exorgistis77exorgistis77 Senior Member Posts: 1,309Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    shogun 2 IS an e sport already for many of us . Many

    In AG many of my teammates perceive the game as a sport and a high competition mean and iam pleased to see that many other good clans like aggonys, gerudo, hoe, arditi and others feel the same way
    Zarganis
  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    shogun 2 IS an e sport already for many of us . Many

    In AG many of my teammates perceive the game as a sport and a high competition mean and iam pleased to see that many other good clans like aggonys, gerudo, hoe, arditi and others feel the same way

    Yes, but does not compare to the "real e-sport" titles. E-Sport is like Formular 1 racing competition. Many Developers/Car Producers go for it and get mercandising and good PR with it.
    If CA want to enter this market, they need to have a attention on its demands. We would not have a "Classic" Total War game then, and i guess the old and long year Customers, will be disappointed for sure.
    Going to a Formular 1 Race with a Truck, is not so whise. Casting Truck races is still funny but, the community is very small.
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    shogun 2 IS an e sport already for many of us . Many

    In AG many of my teammates perceive the game as a sport and a high competition mean and iam pleased to see that many other good clans like aggonys, gerudo, hoe, arditi and others feel the same way

    I'm really glad that you and your teammates perceive this game as a e-sport. Please don't stop as we need to grow that aspect of the community.
    However, it's presumptious of you to speak for others and other clans. Just stick to your own opinion.
    You're making a huge leap of faith by saying that competition = e-sports. There's more to it than that.

    I do wish that the game would become an e-sport with full support from CA as that would increase everyone's enjoyment of the game. However, the current state of the game is far, far, far from that as Naisho explained so well. The game mechanics themselves prevent it from becoming an e-sport.
  • (Darkelf) Temper(Darkelf) Temper Senior Member Posts: 541Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electronic_sports
    http://www.eswc.com/en

    Proffesional E-sports
    Anyone can find Total War on any of the game lists ?

    And once upon a time,Empire Total War was on a list....and it failed,lack of balance,lack of players,lack of interest,lack of money.

    Don't just take my word for it about why TW will never be included a s a pro sport,Send an email to the professional leagues and ask them.

    But don't fret ! =)

    It's ok to be a competetive amateur.You just can't claim to be a Pro Gamer by playing TW is all. =P
  • Julius_CaesarJulius_Caesar Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    I disagree with how you relate it to SC. You made the multiplayer seem like once you hit the ready up button you can just stop playing. Strategy is a HUGE part of the gameplay and its not all about terrain, its not all about fatigue are ammo consumption. It is about where you go, how you go and what you show to your opponent. Obviously if you compare an entire SC match to a mutliplayer battle the SC match will have more depth, the comparison you made would have either been more fitted to compare SC match to a mutliplayer campaign or a single engagement in SC to a battle. Granted that an entire multiplayer match is much longer and wouldnt really work as an esport, but the comparison you made is not the reason why this game isnt a good Esport, the reason is that it just isnt the type of game for it.

    Now if CA really worked on balancing and leveling out veterans or making Classic battles work it would be a different story. The classic battles are more Esport viable for the way they are created.
  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    classic battles aren't more esport viable.
    You said so yourself. A game like Starcraft manages to compress all the strategies of a Shogun2 campaign into a 15 to 20 minute match. This is one reason why Starcraft is more compelling to watch and develop as a esport than any TW game.

    CA has its work cut out if they really want to turn this into a esport attractive game. For me, it's dellusional to think that any TW game has esport potential.
  • naishonaisho Senior Member USAPosts: 3,425Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    @Julius, you are confusing strategy with game mechanics. Strategy looks at game mechanics and asks "what can I do?" it does not replace mechanics in terms of significance. For example, lets say I have a strategy to fly bombs at the enemy in shogun 2 but if the mechanics aren't there I can't do it. and as I said Shogun 2 is almost entire modifier driven which means that almost every mechanic is optional, however, ineffective use of them means you lose. Anyone who has played the game long enough will see the modifiers even if they don't recognize them as such. Every player plans the strategies to the modifier mechanics, no one can escape that.
    1---/\__/\
    1=(O-"-O)=/\
    1--- / | | \--/ -|
    1---| \-/ \-_ /
    1--( Neko )

    Naisho the Neko

    "You have raised assorted issues under what might be termed a “I-don’t-like-it because-I-say-it’s-not-historical” banner. This isn't quite the same as "justified", I'm sorry to say." -MikeB
  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited February 2012
    Naisho, feel free to correct me if this is wrong.

    Think of this as an example.

    In Shogun 2, a very strong tactic is to flank your opponent. Why? Because it inflicts a heavy morale penalty (i.e. modifier) that will cause the unit to rout quicker, and thus freeing up your units to attack others.

    In Starcraft 2, flanking is powerful, but for a different reason. Flanking creates a larger area of attack allowing more units to inflict hitpoint damage to your enemy units. It's a physical advantage as opposed to a statistic/modifier advantage.

    The basic strategy is flanking, but the implementation of it is quite different.
  • MrYellowMrYellow Member Posts: 144Registered Users
    edited November 2018
    Shogun 2 multiplayer had a lot of good things going for it, off all total war games i would say it was the most polished, engaging and balanced multiplayer.
    But it simply did not received enough official support, as the time went by it became more and more obbious how unbalanced certain things were.

    1st:
    It goes without saying that paid DLC should had never been allowed in a competitive multiplayer game.
    Those who buy Rise of the Samurai, Sengoku Jidai, Saints and Heroes or the Ikko Ikko DLC all get more powerfull and cost eficient units, not to mention a lot of very powerfull exclusive retainers! Thus puting anyone who does not pay for the DLCs at a handicap.
    Diferent time period units should not have been mixed toguether neither, this takes away from immersion.

    2nd:
    Capping units... This should have been done with all units in my opinion. No one should be allowed to field an entire army of the same exact unit, making certain retainers extremely OP and making said build very hard to counter with anything other than an specialized anti-build.
    All units should have been capped at around 6(some, specially monks, at even less), as well as having a Unit-Class cap too, like for example max 8 calv, max 8 swords, etc, etc thus forcing melle spamers and in particular cav spamers to at least mix up their units a little; A unit and class cap would also automatically balance out certain retainers selection.

    3rd:
    On the retainers topic; They ALL should have been easier to unlock by being directly linked to either Archivements or Territories on the Avatar Map. None should have been linked to random post battle drops, much less to FULL armour sets where obtaining each individual piece is itself based RNG. One can play a million battles and still be as unlucky as to not get some of the arguably most important retainers, leaving you with a handicap on the multiplayer based purelly on luck.

    4th:
    A new player with only ashigaru units unlocked(even if said new player is very skillfull) has almost 0 chance to win a battle vs a more leveled up player(even if said player is less skillfull), as the ashigaru units will simply rout as soon as the fight start.
    In my opinion all basic samurai units(bow, yari, katana and yari cav) should have been available from level 0 to all players. This would even up the field early on and give everyone a fairer chance. Clan specialization should instead be about unlocking higher tier(specialized) units and upgrades, not starting ones.

    5th:
    The inclusion of dojos on the different maps is overall a great idea, as it prevents camping and red lining. However not all dojos are created equal and their positioning and randomness make for some unfair situations sometimes, when one dojo of arguably less importance is closer to one player, while another dojo of arguably higher value is closer to the other player.
    All dojos should simply be equally accesible to both players at the start of the game, being it ultimately up to said players to focus or not on capturing or neutralizing them.
    On the same topic, Bow Dojo should give both accuracy and reload speed, and do NOT give ammo-resuply for 2 reasons:
    - Most games end so fast that you hardly ever run out of ammo, making the ammo ressuply mechanic and even the extended ammo upgrades rather pointless most of the time.
    - In the special case of the enemy spaming cav and bow cav, it becomes the complete oposite, this dojo and its ressuply ability becomes OP. With a balanced army you are basically forced to go for the hills and forest in order to have a fighting chance vs said cheeze army, however, since the bow dojo gives ammo resuply then we are sadly forced in stead to be out in the open near the dojo and be an easy target, or simply go to the woods and die from infinite arrows.

    6th:
    Naval battles on vanilla Shogun 2 are a mess. Yet they are nesesary in order to unlock all land regions(thus all units and retainers) on the Avatar Conquest map.
    I think this was a mistake; Siege battles are neither required nor ranked, why then make Naval ones both things, when they are arguably worse than Siege?!

    7th:
    Why allow Public Groups to be selected as Clans? This makes the whole Clan Competition feature rather pointless as zerg clans have a clear advantage over smaller private ones. Small steps to alleviate this were taken such as the implementation of losing points by losing battles and such, but that aint enough.
    Only private groups should have counted as Clans from the begining, and only Officers(owners) of said groups should have been able to activate them and select clan specialisation. Anyone on the group being able to do this is rather frustrating since there is no option to disband the group as a clan, nor of changing clan specialization, such options should have been added too at some point!
    Post edited by MrYellow on
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