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untrained fugu + world weary + not having blade master = no more sword core

tricky-steptricky-step Senior MemberPosts: 201Registered Users
it's just that simple,

it's killing my usual sword core. i win many fights, but when I'm up against a high ranked player with naginata/spear spam and he has matchlocks sniping through his naginata attendants, its going to be extremely tough to win since my swords no longer have an emphatic advantage over spear units like they're supposed to have.

this isn't about bringing bows, or getting my own matchlocks to counter his, or maneuvering cav for hammer and anvils (which is becoming increasingly hard against rising spear spam armies)

this is about having my expensive swords getting nerfed to the point where the slight attack advantage (if they still have it after the nerf) losing to slightly weaker but well defensed spears that can tank all day long. and its just brutal if they pop a hold firm. its almost not worth to bring the good ol' sword core anymore since most experienced players will drop these killing retainers - untrained fugu and world weary

and i've been playing this game since launch and still don't have blade master >_>
Post edited by tricky-step on
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Comments

  • YoritomoYoritomo Senior Member Posts: 701Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Playing without blademaster is hard and use a sword core.

    25 Attack is not enough? Decreased by world weary and Fugu u still have 22. And what bout the charge?

    Dont expect to win vs spearwalls if you attack them frontal. Thats all.
    You want successfully arty camp in deploy zone? Go ahead and get your win.
  • DecemberDecember Senior Member Posts: 137Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    it's just that simple,

    it's killing my usual sword core. i win many fights, but when I'm up against a high ranked player with naginata/spear spam and he has matchlocks sniping through his naginata attendants, its going to be extremely tough to win since my swords no longer have an emphatic advantage over spear units like they're supposed to have.

    QFT. I've basically retired my level nine katanas and bring my naginatas instead. Heck, I've started bringing yari samurai over my katana samurai because they aren't that much worse and can fight cavalry too. And I also have no blade master =(
  • themonkeythemonkey Senior Member Posts: 310Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    spread out more haha, people usualy try to charge headfront into a formation..... remember gun take quite a while to set up.....
    gn = <g) gensou If you want to 1v1 message me :0, need to find more good player to play with :0 to improve ;).
  • BeardyMcJohnFaceBeardyMcJohnFace Senior Member Posts: 130Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Yoritomo wrote: »
    Playing without blademaster is hard and use a sword core.

    25 Attack is not enough? Decreased by world weary and Fugu u still have 22. And what bout the charge?

    Dont expect to win vs spearwalls if you attack them frontal. Thats all.

    i assume you're counting sword units dripping with clan tokens and using stand and fight yeah? not exactly an option for many out there and certainly isn't a situation that's fair for all, and even in that situation, 22att for a ~1100koku unit that's only use is in melee v infantry is hardly adequate given the current stats of nag/spear units. stretched out nag attendants + counter charge will ruin the effectiveness of the sword unit's charge. add to that broken banzai...

    I've got blade master and i'm finding swords barely worthwhile. they offer a slight melee advantage over naginata but they are just so fragile to ranged and cav charges that the tiny melee payoff hardly seems worth it. i couldn't begin to imagine how useless they'd be fugu-ed, WW-ed and without blade master, against HF spears...
  • (Darkelf) Temper(Darkelf) Temper Senior Member Posts: 541Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I saw this coming the day of the patch and cut loose most of my Katana/Nodachi and invested in Naginata Samurai ASAP.

    While the lack of retainers on my behalf and the use of negative retainers on me played a huge factor in the decision,it was also infuenced by the utmost disgust I have for cheap spear/naginata units that are used by a lot of leader generals allowing them to field an elite cavalry,ranged and small sword core if they want.

    I figured if I'm gonna lose,I may as well take troops that take longer to die in combat....if there is any left by the time they hit combat haha. =)

    Player skill being equal,your best chance of consistantly beating cheap spear/naginata Leader users ,is to become a user yourself.But that rubs me the wrong way,so I won't.

    Yoritomo,while I agree with your statement,I also would like to add however that,it's easier said than done sometimes,while your manouvering to get around them,your opponents basically getting free shots.It's not often I find a flank or rear without its own spearwall.

    Your a much better player than I and your advice is always welcome,it's just not always possible for lesser players to adhere too.
  • ArcanumArcanum Senior Member Posts: 301Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    You;re complaining about this NOW? I can only imagine your seething rage before they nerfed World Weary.
    Ave Dominus Nox.
  • BeardyMcJohnFaceBeardyMcJohnFace Senior Member Posts: 130Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Your a much better player than I and your advice is always welcome,it's just not always possible for lesser players to adhere too.
    I'd go beyond that... Suggesting it's the fault of the person that his lack of micro means his 17att 1100 koku swords can't win in a melee against 20+melee def HF spears is beyond unhelpful and doesn't actually address game balance...
    Arcanum wrote: »
    You;re complaining about this NOW? I can only imagine your seething rage before they nerfed World Weary.
    WW has been nurfed, but so have swords so the overall effect is still similar...
  • qed_deqqed_deq Senior Member Posts: 191Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    @tricky-step
    I was in this position until recently and i also play this game since spring last year so i know the feeling of not having Blade Master (no world weary either). I got Blade Master a week ago finally, all you need to do is to play and wait, it will come at some point.

    But when i didn't had it i was always looking at the bright side, yes there is a bright side, this was stimulating me to find other solutions and ways to get around this handicap and i very often did won against equally skilled opponents even with my significant retainer disadvantage and i believe this made me a bit of a better player over time.
    Visit my YouTube channel for my most recent multiplayer battle replays and let's play campaigns


    The expert in battle seeks his victory from strategic advantage and does not demand it from his men
  • tricky-steptricky-step Senior Member Posts: 201Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    how many vet slots do i get if i prestige to 10 gold? im at 54 slots right now full of 9 chev swords (and other units) and i don't want to delete them - but i have no room for new nag units
  • spicykoreanspicykorean Senior Member Posts: 1,632Registered Users
    edited March 2012
  • AresGodofWar1214AresGodofWar1214 Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I have Blade Master and choose not to use it due to better options in army compositions...Ahh the irony....
  • (Darkelf) Temper(Darkelf) Temper Senior Member Posts: 541Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Ten vet slots for each prestige.

    I wouldnt recommend prestiging tho.It takes an awful long time and the loss of retainers for so long bugs the **** out of me.

    If I ever reset my avatar again,I'd just stay bronze and work with the original vet slots.It's more fun reseting than it is prestiging anyway.
  • Sima Zhong DaSima Zhong Da Senior Member Posts: 532Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    「It's quite possible to have 300+ veteran slots, so the prestige system is kinda silly.」
    Modern war is conducted against an out-group by powerful people who have an exaggerated opinion of themselves and their degree of morality, are overconfident, often have an illusion of control, enjoy taking risks and are almost always male. - Robert Trivers, Deceit and Self-deception
  • themonkeythemonkey Senior Member Posts: 310Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    those that came after a certain patch miss out haha.
    gn = <g) gensou If you want to 1v1 message me :0, need to find more good player to play with :0 to improve ;).
  • (Darkelf) Temper(Darkelf) Temper Senior Member Posts: 541Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I was here pre and post patch,I still didnt abuse a known bug,regardless of what my thoughts are on the amount of veteran slots we should have.

    A bug is a bug is a bug,exploiting a bug is,well, exploiting a bug.Whoever wants to do it can do it and those that don't...obviously don't.

    Nothing to be proud of either way,just some at least try to play within the ruleset. =)
  • KatsumotoGKKatsumotoGK Senior Member Posts: 692Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    77 vet slots at gold prestige
  • tricky-steptricky-step Senior Member Posts: 201Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    im at 54 slots with 10 silver, so that means i would only have 64 with 10 gold star

    and that aint worth it since half the people in multiplayer matchmaking would drop me >_>
  • AresGodofWar1214AresGodofWar1214 Senior Member Posts: 138Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    270 and Silver Prestige :D Only bug I have no problem with, it doesn't help on the battlefield, and anyone could have done it. The game is also incredibly boring with just enough vet slots for 2 rotations of armies.
  • KillerMonkeyBobKillerMonkeyBob Senior Member Posts: 609Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    You can counter both with yagu sword and blade master. so 2 retainer slots for 2, But i would definately say a sword core is absolutely pointless unless you've got blade master and fugu cook will seriously hurt your units without it. It's not that the retainers are broken unbalanced but that the system is unfair, something that makes such a big difference in battles shouldn't be a random item handed out only to some players.. everyone should have access or no one should.
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Retainers don't improve the gameplay by increasing the depth of the game, really they do just the opposite. And extra vet slots don't add any advantage to the battle, just some people find it boring playing with the same limited vets over and over and don't want to delete and grind up everytime they want to try out a new vet build, they rather keep all their vets, so who can blame them.
  • (Darkelf) Temper(Darkelf) Temper Senior Member Posts: 541Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I don't agree with the vet slot number either but Meh,exploiting a bug is exploiting a bug any way you want to candy coat it. =)

    If you don't believe having 1 army build x2 of complete vets and 3 maybe 4 other builds ready on demand for different maps,opponents,testing,whims gives a clear advantage,especially in a tourney,then maybe it's time for a avatar reset and see how that goes for you with less options on the table. (dont ask for vet refreshses) ;)

    It's pretty clear why veteran slots are numbered and someone of your and Ares playing standard openly admitting to bypassing the games ruleset simply because you don't agree with it just encourages others to exploit/hack/cheat/ or do whatever tickles their fancy,because if the better players do it,then why shouldn't I.

    Please dont think Im taking a holier than thou stance/attitude to this.I'm no angel by any means and can't/wont try to tell people how the game has to be played.But I'm not going to condone the use of exploits/bugs no matter how much I like/respect a player.

    Anyway looks like I've ranted again lol,so I better go back to my corner and put on my dunce hat. =)
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited March 2012
    so.... lets say you play GAME A for example, you beat it 100% but theres one ONE save slot. so when you restart SAVE DATA A of GAME A is replaced.. but you find a way to have more than 1 save slot, thats exploiting?
  • (Darkelf) Temper(Darkelf) Temper Senior Member Posts: 541Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I'm sorry Duke,I'm pretty senile and just don't get your reference or comparison of save game formats in a multiplayer setting.

    If you are somehow refering to singleplayer game save formats such as Mount&Blade Warbands realism save mode,then yes it's cheating exploiting,but that's singleplayer and none of anyone elses buisness. =)
  • SecuterSecuter Senior Member Posts: 1,709Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I was here pre and post patch,I still didnt abuse a known bug,regardless of what my thoughts are on the amount of veteran slots we should have.

    A bug is a bug is a bug,exploiting a bug is,well, exploiting a bug.Whoever wants to do it can do it and those that don't...obviously don't.

    Nothing to be proud of either way,just some at least try to play within the ruleset. =)

    Captain obvious saves the day ;) sorry just had to :p
    Make a Medieval 3!
    More units.
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  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Vet slot limitation is dumb to begin with and those that do have more vet slots don't have an adv in battle anyway.

    You can only call someone an exploiter when they got extra vet slots by constantly deleting dlcs units for them. You need to ask yourself the question what really did they exploit... they exploited the gaining of more freedom within the game and not some cheat that helps win battles. Those that did it are people who don't want to play with the same vets over and over and also don't want to delete vets everytime they want to experiment with new vet units in their builds. Should never have such limitations to start with...
  • HaZE7HaZE7 Senior Member Posts: 431Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    A bug is a bug is a bug,exploiting a bug is,well, exploiting a bug.Whoever wants to do it can do it and those that don't...obviously don't.

    'A proof is a proof. What kind of a proof? It's a proof. A proof is a proof. And when you have a good proof, it's because it's proven.'
    -Jean Chretien (former Canadian PM)

    Amusing quote you reminded me of.
  • VeritasVeritas Senior Member Posts: 301Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Swords need a slight buff?
    RTK | Yoshida
  • MakeNineMakeNine Senior Member Posts: 270Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    Another imbalance lies with the fact that all players will acquire Untrained Fugu Cook from the conquest map while the retainers that impair other types of infantry are all random drops and thus rare. So when Naginata units were still classed as spears few people had Unbalanced Spears to use against them, or Wavering Faith / Stricken Unholy Forge..
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  • BeardyMcJohnFaceBeardyMcJohnFace Senior Member Posts: 130Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    ...and those that do have more vet slots don't have an adv in battle anyway.

    It's an advantage. If the game were perfectly balanced and if vetting in avatar were similar to classic then it'd wouldn't be an advantage but that is certainly not the case. vets win matches, if they didn't we'd see a LOT more vanilla units out and about...
    AMP wrote: »
    Should never have such limitations to start with...
    this i completely agree with.
    MakeNine wrote: »
    Another imbalance lies with the fact that all players will acquire Untrained Fugu Cook from the conquest map while the retainers that impair other types of infantry are all random drops and thus rare.
    That and fugu cook is a much more significant nurf now that swords don't have the attack power they used to have, AND it's to the one and only thing that they do well. spear's primary role is in anti-cav and they don't do too well in melee anyway, plus def isn't quite as valuable as att, so -2def to spears really doesn't make nearly as much of a difference. Nags are simply effective while being immune to debuff retainers...

    if you have 4att kat sams for instance, fugu = 100koku per kat sam and 70koku for 3att kat sams, that is massive.
  • JacquestheApostateJacquestheApostate Senior Member Posts: 412Registered Users
    edited March 2012
    I only use maximum two sword units now and I belong to a sword clan.

    When they put a max limit on the Loan Sword along with increased cost and decreased stats it has made the unit almost worthless, IMO.

    In future when tweaking units for play balance one tweak at a time would be a better option.

    Hope CA staff actually read these threads.
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