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......:::::: Little school of shogun 2 mp ::::::......

Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 1,529
edited March 2014 in Total War Eras Multiplayer
......:::::: LITTLE SCHOOL OF SHOGUN 2 MP ::::::......

OK reason to write this is simple, since going prestige I was pitted vs plenty of new guys who had very little understanding in game mechanics and did a poor job of assembling the army core, in usage of troops, upgrading units etc. I would dare to say that most of people lack at least some important basic knowledge, much like me just a few weeks ago. Luckily I had older clan members which explained to me a lot and I read, googled, found out and learn things by myself. By my nature I was inclined to shout advices like "too low attack on your kat core" or "keep your general close to your ashigaru - they tend to become nervous otherwise : )" throughout the games. Often there was not enough time to tell all that I wanted so I decided to distill most important issues in a short text (goofy name is here to help google search btw)

FOR WHOM IS THIS GUIDE..?
This text is for players that have some basics in shogun games /like in SP, which unit is good for what, about flanking, attack from rear, morale, general range etc. I won't be explaining basics here. It's just most important issues you need to address if you want your troops to be any challenge at all to more experienced players in MP.

CONTROLS
Learn to use basic controls and what do they mean, things like; Guard mode (usually on yari defensive troops, ranged units and cav), loose formation (unit under missile fire uses this but never in melee), Yari ash spear wall (good for defending but they maneuver/move slowly) shift +move click (or attack) (queue orders with shift) ctrl+RMB move - unit walks, F -switch between ranged and melee, alt+move - move immediately, without waiting formation (good for quick cav pullouts), also with selecting cards, ctrl +select or shift +select work same as in windows. Some info on subject you can find in here.

DEBUG CAMERA
Now supposedly, in a last patch, height that normal battle camera was raised by some percentage. One way or the other it's good to know that by using debug camera you can have tactical advantage over opponent that doesn't. Being able to look from higher (on larger portion of battlefield) could be an advantage. I never liked debug camera too much because it just flows just too high and you feel detached to terrain features and your troops, so I just used normal camera with increased roof limit from 50 to 80. Link to achieve that is here: Battle Camera 80, and you can find info on enabling debug cam in same link I already posted for controlling units, here, second post.

GENERAL
OK, nr 1, take leadership general. Not that things cannot be done otherwise but other paths are for people who know d a m n well what are they doing and you are not among them : ) Best players of S2 use leadership general as a rule. It will allow your troops to be more reliable and that you can take more of cheep troops, which can be tremendous advantage. Keep your general close to your army because of the bonuses on morale they'll get- especially to your ashigaru and low morale units. They tend to get nervous otherwise ; ) Keep one unit to serve as a meat shield to a general from missile fire. Remember - matchlocks have clear shot on your general while he is on horse. Dismount him if he's in guns range and keep meatshield unit like ashigaru (thicker formation then attendants) in front of him. If bows threaten you order your meatshield to stay over your general, two units overlaping.

Great video of general tree explained in detail by Pariya.

MEATSHIELD
nr. 2 use meatshield, cheaper units that will protect your more valuable units not getting to exposed. It is usually done by putting cheaper units in front of your main core. Attendants are used most often, but ashigaru will do as well, some people even use naginatas. Most of people do not micro the archers/matchlocks too much so they'll attack closest unit and you want to make sure it will be lousy one. Meatshield will allow your valuable troops to get to battle intact, they will disrupt enemy core line often, making more opportunities for your core to attack holes in his main line, flank, etc.

OPTIONS - SHOW CARDS - always
Turn this on ASAP. You can do it even from battle screen. It will allow you to check stats on enemy troops by putting cursor over them. Check for composition of enemy veterans stats etc. while approaching and make a plan how to deal with them accordingly. Fugu cooked katana rookie with attack of 10 and clan buffed mean veteran with attack of 25 may seem alike on battlefield, but are NOT same unit I assure you : ) One can be ignored while attention you give to other will decide victory.

WATCH YOUR ENEMY
As soon as you order your army to march, take a peak on enemy troops. Where his strength lies? What are his best troops? What kind of army is it? Aggressive melee build, or ranged army that will camp and delay you while their ranged troops butcher you? Is he a skirmisher, berserker, cav spammer? Make a plan of situation accordingly. Check your enemy in lobby as well. Click on his name in chat window and check his stats. His ladder position and his win loss ratio. It can be a good indicator of challenge you'll face, but don't underestimate anyone, ever. In this game situation can turn tides in split second. Guys on ladder place 500 and up are as a rule very capable players, if their place is deserved /not drop-hacked.

CORE
What is the core, some of you may wonder. I's your main infantry attack force, infantry designated to kill other infantry. A mainstay, a backbone of your army. Legion in Roman time, phalanx in Greek. They are the guys battle really relies on, if they fail, usually everything is lost already. Your army should be built around your core, serving and protecting them. YOUR CORE MUST BE WELL UPGRADED OTHERWISE IT'S USELESS - but we'll talk about this in next part. In 14k army core usually has around 5 units. most often that are kat sams, but plenty people add naginatas to wings, use WM (warrior monk) core or just pure naginata core, or some similar combination. Choice is up to you and your play style. I've seen lot of core setups and in a hands of a competent player they all do their jobs. There is no clear advantage to no troop type, in case you've wondered. Some units have one advantages, other have others, and it's up to you to maximize them and limit opportunities of your opponent to maximize his. Just try to use a core who will benefit mostly from your retainers.

UPGRADES
Do not take vet upgrades in what you are not certain what they do. They will increase cost of your troops significantly, and it's too easy to screw your entire army up (especially heroes!) for good. You can raise new army, but not new heroes. In short terms - raise attack and defence on your melee units (inf. and cav alike), especially ones that are mostly used (bigger, dominant stat) first (for sword units it would be an attack, for spear/naginata - defense). With attack and defense upgrade you won't miss, with others, you might. Also, use clan upgrades exclusively for dominant stat. Crack katana troops have 2+2 in attack, 1 defense, 1 morale. Crack WM unit has 2 att, 2+2 defense. Morale (1 pont) is good for basic samurai troops, for leadership general not so important as for other types. For ranged troops raise reload first, accuracy if you like. YOU DON'T HAVE TO SPEND ALL UPGRADE POINTS, just leave them be. Forget about all other upgrades (stamina, charge, special abilities) unless you know EXACTLY what are you doing, which you don't ; ) Army upgraded in manner I described will be as good as it gets - trust me you need no better.

In general best advice I can give you is to have best upgraded core troops and plenty of basically upgraded /non upgraded support troops. It is a optimum mix best players use.


LIMIT UPGRADE TO CHEAP UNITS

Now if you are upgrading cheap units you are defying their very essence. 1 upgrade to naginata attendants will raise their cost for 25%, and they'll still be cr-appy unit. On better /more expensive units overall cost increase is not that drastic. Now this rule is not set in stone of course, but it has strong logic behind it, I assure you.

HAVE TWO IDENTICAL ARMIES
Identical or very similar. Army A and army B. One fights, one rests. Simple. No more nervous troop picking just before combat. 14k army and smaller version /10k of same army. So you'll have 4 army versions, 10k A and B; and 14k A and B. Be organized. Sun Tzu would approve : )

ARRANGE TROOPS IN LINES YOU DEPLOY THEM
This one is simple and it will shorten your deployment time phase. If you deploy troops in three lines (for example - first line attendant meatsheild +matchlocks, second line naginata /kat core, third line ashigaru, general, bows) put those lines in same order in army cards - so that you can select them with shift (click - first unit, shift click - last) and then form a line directly on field by pulling RMB. You can arrange thicker or thinner lines of men here. Being able to quickly deploy your troops might be of essence - some guys just press start ASAP. Be ready.

COLOR CODE YOUR ARMY
This one is optional but highly recommended. Now I saw uniformly colored armies, that might look OK (if army is black that is, green army...? c'mon.. ; ) but it's infinitely more practical to have them color coded (color of your troops will mostly be determined by second/middle button on color customization panel - it's the color of their clothes but their sashimono as well, little flag they carry on their back) - so that you can scan situation on battlefield (but on veteran list too) at glance. Here is the way I do it - yari troops - red (cav and inf alike), elite core troops - black, missile units - brown (actually same color as hero-daikyu unit, heavy gunners, mtd gunners, etc) support troops - yellow, trainee newbie troops - turquoise (blue-green) ...etc. As soon as I glimpse on battlefield, I know what is going on there. Take all help you can get.

MATCHLOCKS
Learn how to use those things. Vast majority/if not all of best players use them extensively. Their matchlocks will eat you alive. They are effective cause they'll scare off enemy troops, even when not killing much. They need not to be on high level to be effective - non vet troops will do. It works other way around too. never allow these guys to shoot at your flanks(God forbid your rear!) - you must block them at all costs.

ATTENDANTS
(if you have addon pack) - use those things. They are incredibly cheap, for the price of 1 unit you get 5. It can be tremendous advantage if you know how to use it. Needles to say, all best players use them extensively. Take as much as possible, 5 units or more.

KEEP RESERVES
Do not engage all of your troops blindly. Keep a unit or two to guard your back. You will learn later by checking army of your opponent to guess does he have some cav hidden or not. Many ppl do so, guard your back. Also, having few units to throw in where most needed can be a difference between victory and defeat. When your line crack, or when no dachi try to outflank you .... Keep some reserves, engage where and when necessary.

MIND THE TERRAIN AND DOJOS
Don't just arrange your army in the middle, except in the rice fields. Mind the terrain and the dojos. If two good dojos are near each other (like shrine and attack) it might bee a good idea to stuck your army in between. Pick carefully from what position you will approach the enemy. If your enemy suddenly falls back, will he be on elevated terrain? Bad for you if so. Sometimes coming from the side /from the woods might be a splendid idea. Never fight your enemy when he is uphill, if you can help it. Penalty is drastic - that why campers are so disdained. And remember, camping is not cowardly if your enemy has ranged units and you don't - it's just common sense ; )

GO WIDE
Some armies have thin wide lines and will envelop normally build army. That can be quite devastating if pulled right. On some maps, thinning row depth of your core from 4 men to 3 can give you 30% wider army then your opponents. Wider army can often be big advantage. Experiment with it. Some maps are more suited for that then others, obviously.

RETAINERS
IMHO, there are but a few good retainers. I'll mention several most useful. If you are in doubt, take ones I recommend. Trading post (-4% troop cost) -very useful, if not one of best ret. Fugu cook (-2 att enemy swords) -infamous retainer, many if not most of builds rely on swords. OPed retainer and everybody has it. Shiryaboshi (+1 morale sams, +5% WM cost) Great retainer for sam armies. Infantry officer (+1 morale sams) -again, good for sam builds. Yagu instructor or Blade master (+1 or +2 sword att) - sword core build must have. Drill square (+1 nagi sam defence) naginata sam reliant builds. Famous armory (+1 armor to all units) small benefit to all of your troops. For WM core builds you have amazing retainers (Shrine +2 att; ikko ikki +2 def +5% WM cost, Rennyo's -1att +3 def +1morale -10 reload) - Rennyo's can be used for spear-naginata core builds too. In short take retainers that would benefit most of your troops or your most important troops /core.

EXPERIMENT
Take one unusual unit and see how it works for you. If you have low kill count constantly with some unit type, switch them. Experiment a little, you will learn about the game that way.

And for the end let me put a little disclaimer to this: This is by all means not all, and this is certainly not only way of doing things. But it's envelopes plenty of issues and it covers some basics. Constructive criticism and contribution is always welcome. Criticism per se is not. I don't need you to agree with me, I didn't ask of your opinion. if you think you have something better to offer start your own thread. Sorry for the harsh disclaimer, but forums can be pretty ...wild places, speaking from experience. I just wanted to everybody to know where we stand.

gl, hf
Post edited by Thorien_Kell on
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Comments

  • ShiroiKibanShiroiKiban Member Registered Users Posts: 43
    edited May 2012
    It is very well written for a deeper look into the game. Overall very useful for game knowledge.
    Still I am looking for some advices for the mechanics of the game. A lot of ppl have trouble because of the game mechanics, including me. The handbook is poorly written and not much of use.
    e.g unit grouping if I suddenly use shift and drag on a unit card i remove it from the group O.o nothing told about it in the handbook.
    Forming a Group of unit cards with pressing g is sweet, but at the moment you want to ungroup them and press g again. Your sorted unit cards go into shuffle mode and brings my whole organisation in absolute chaos and I need time to reorganise. If my enemy attacks me during that time I am totally screwed...

    No clue to avoid it ...
    These are some examples where I think ppl need some advices in the game mechanics, because the handbook is poorly written.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited May 2012
    Yeah, that stupid grouping bug really needs a fix. As far as upgrades go, I still don't know for sure if defense really helps all unit types. For instance, I haven't upgraded it for no-dachis or any cav units up until now.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • ShiroiKibanShiroiKiban Member Registered Users Posts: 43
    edited May 2012
    I dont think that is a bug. In my eyes it is even intended to do so, dunno why but it seems this way.

    defense is imo a good upgrade on kat kav it is a fine one too.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited May 2012
    Same as the camera movement issue, it looks intentional but we really don't know if it is. Either way, it needs to be adresses as it pointlessly makes the interface less manageable.

    I thought it might be ok on Kat cav since they are meant to fight units that have no bonus vs cav. I think I will upgrade one of my Kat cav with it. I'm wondering though if charge may actually be better still. Perhaps I could even get both. 4 attack, 2 defense, 2 charge and Banzai. :P
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    edited May 2012
    For instance, I haven't upgraded it for no-dachis or any cav units up until now.
    My theory is to upgrade stat your unit will actually use /relies on. Attack for swords, mostly def for spears /nagi, all for WM. No dachi have defense so low that either 1 or 2, it's still completely useless. I think similar on kat sams, they will face high attack core troops and defending from attack 23 with def of 4 or 6 is not really that different. This is my opinion I cannot back up with tests, mostly ppl take some basic defense for their katana sam (1 point). Kat cav - yes, I think giving it basic non clan 2 points in defense is a good idea. Those things are meant to kill and last in melee. I wouldn't give them charge or banzai but it's your call.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    edited May 2012
    As for the interface, yes you can mess up whole carefully arranged battle line very easily. Btw, in case someone didn't know, you can stack move /att. commands with shift. Alt + mouse move command will order unit to execute order at once, not waiting for line to form (good for cav retreats). Double click on unit card will select all units of a same type. Ctrl +I will select melee units, ctrl+m missile and another one I cannot remember right now.. : )
  • SpectorSpector Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 795
    edited May 2012
    You need to add the info about the ''satellite cam'', it's only fair.

    Good work btw.
    Playing Total War since the original Shogun
  • Ernesto_HErnesto_H Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,735
    edited May 2012
    hmm not sure im rank 60 and i use a bow gen or a melee gen and i have figth good top players and most of them use a bow or melee gen.
  • MorphineMorphine Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 286
    edited May 2012
    Nice to see a clan mate doing good for community. There are some minor things i must disagree but overall you done a great job here. Considering unit upgrades i would just like to add: Upgrade as much as you can while keeping price low. This is the main reason i hate ultra funds on the battle list. Good player should be good in both, tactics (on the field) and strategy (off the field). Try to maintain troops that are cost effective and that means that you will not upgrade matchlocks damage because they already have a big damage and do well enough without it but what you must upgrade is reload and accuracy if you want them to be more effective for that price. If you must rise unit cost for 50 then make it worth. In other words effectiveness should rise proportionally with price :cool:

    I hope i make myself clear.
    Visit my new Youtube.com/channelMorphine for TW strategy, tactics and let's plays.
    Attila, Rome 2, Shogun 2, Rise of the Samurai, Napoleon, Hearts of Iron 3 and much more coming soon

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  • ThesaboteurThesaboteur Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 812
    edited May 2012
    I've considered doing something similar but in the game. The one thing I don't like is the leadership part. Its a big slap to my face and my general's face. And I don't think he is happy about it. I would agree with you that leadership is good for weaker units like ashigaru but it also makes you dependent on him which brings another weakness. A good bow general can kill a leadership in under 5 seconds and where's your advantage? Gone. I'm not saying that it is not good but it is a overstatement to say leadership is the best. On the rest I say it is good but I would like you to write more in depth or possibly make some strategies you would like to share. Heck, I got some killer ones and tips that could really throw your opponent off balance.

    Sorry for the criticism but you should know posting on such a forum as this. People will have different opinions.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    edited May 2012
    I've considered doing something similar but in the game. The one thing I don't like is the leadership part. Its a big slap to my face and my general's face.

    Tell me that you kidding please? You are taking this far to personally. I think that a general that influences -all- of his troops is a better deal then one strong unit, when you have 20 of those, you don't. It's fine. As I've said, there is more then one way to skin a cat. My advice for newbie player is to go leadership. Later when they get some useful melee general retainers, and what they have better idea of what they want, they can switch to whatever they please.
  • Hymer7Hymer7 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 206
    edited May 2012
    This is so awesome! Very nice of u to do for newbies! Sometimes I feel like its very hard to get a new player into this game because it has a very steep learning curve!

    Thanks man!
    http://www.youtube.com/coreBOSS ...just for fun! -Boss
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaRegistered Users Posts: 4,786
    edited May 2012
    I have a quick question.

    I am thinking about making either my Naginata or Yari Samurai as my "hold the line" infantry and use my Katana Samurai to flank and destroy the enemy samurai from the rear with the added melee and charge bonus. But, I am not sure if Naginata Samurai would be better to use as the main defensive line while my Katana Samurai flank and keep the Yari Samurai in reserve to counter any cavalry charges that the opponent might try to make. Also, would the defensive bonus and added moral be better suited for the Naginata Samurai to counter enemy missile infantry as well.
    Ready for Three Kingdom's TW: I5-6600k, EVGA Geforce GTX 1070SC, 16Gigs RAM, WD Blue PC SSD @ 500GB
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited May 2012
    Naginata samurai are clearly the better main line unit of the two. They're better at resisting missiles and at killing as well. Yari sam should be kept in reserve. As far as upgrades go, I always give my main line units morale and the standard defense in addition to the mandatory attack.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    edited May 2012
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    I am thinking about making either my Naginata or Yari Samurai as my "hold the line" infantry and use my Katana Samurai to flank and destroy the enemy samurai from the rear with the added melee and charge bonus.

    Flanking plan is cool, but remember, other guy has same or similar sized army as you. Why should he allow you to flank? Naginata sam is a definition of hold line infantry, yari sam are somewhat weaker in melee. In general I believe that guarding your rear can be assigned to several cheaper units, upgraded yari sam is to expensive for what it offers. I did other way around btw, kat sams in middle killing while nagi sams at flanks, also killing and serving as meatshied for flank swoop cav charges, but there is no "right" way to arrange your core. Test it out and see for yourself.

    One little trick, best players in this game which use sam core stuck one powerful spear unit in middle of main line - because of the hold firm. When things go rough, hold firm means a lot. I was unable to rout one high ranked player with my cav charges to rear of his line because of that last night. You need to be in spear clan though.
    Also, would the defensive bonus and added moral be better suited for the Naginata Samurai to counter enemy missile infantry as well.
    I wrote how to upgrade kat sams. For nagi, same as WM, +2 att, 2+2 defense. and 1 morale in addition. Defense is not used to counter missile fire AFAIK, but they have thick armor so are best units to endure missiles /except bullets of course.
  • HeidlerHeidler Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3
    edited May 2012
    Quick question, what would be the best way to upgrade loan-sword ashigaru? I understand that melee attack and morale are good choices. What would be the best route for them to beat kat sam and kat kachi?
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    edited May 2012
    Loan swords are not designed to beat kat sams, but they have they rightful place in any sword based army setup. They are cheapest katana wielding units, and katana is a mean weapon, all you need is to play their strengths and weaknesses right. I'll tell you how some of best players using them - I saw them being very efficient behind main line of WM core army - when main line becomes thin and cracks, those guys jump in on weakened enemy that begun to pour through. Other guy is using them behind his WM crack flank units, sort to help in flanking /attach to already engaged enemy. They can have tons of kills if used in a right way. 100-200 kills for unit that cheap is great.

    And yes, 2 att an 1 morale is all you really need.
  • HeidlerHeidler Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 3
    edited May 2012
    Thanks for the insight!
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaRegistered Users Posts: 4,786
    edited May 2012
    Ok, another quick question. I've played some people who will just spam one unit type. For example, a battle I fought yesterday, which was a devastating defeat for me because of said spammer, was he charge my lines with just his 15 No-Dachi Samurai, and to make matters worse, he didn't have any traits so I had no idea on how he played. What do you suggest to handle spammers when you find out that they are spamming. Also, this was in a team match.
    Ready for Three Kingdom's TW: I5-6600k, EVGA Geforce GTX 1070SC, 16Gigs RAM, WD Blue PC SSD @ 500GB
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    edited May 2012
    Well it depends on spammer, and spam type. Thankfully those kind of players are in minority and thankfully they are usually lousy players. I won't scare you with some devastating spam types shove very high ranking players abuse to he-ll and back, those spams are brutally efficient.

    Basically we are talking about full melee sword spam. Quite rare thing actually. Well he has probably 0-lvl units, so with fugu cook (did you took it? you should) his attack was quite low. That means any defense unit with decently high defense (like mid-high level naginata, WM or yari sams) stat should endure his attacks quite some time. But he did good thing he took no dachi, because of the banzai, much more dangerous spam then kat sams. They gain speed, attack and morale on banzai, very handy for 0 lvl army. Your best defense would be your cav. He will eventually overwhelm your infantry core. Put your men wide on field, don't allow flanking. Wait for banzai to wear off and rout his troops by successive cav charges in the back which devastate morale. That is your best chance.
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaRegistered Users Posts: 4,786
    edited May 2012
    Quick question:

    Would Matchlock ashigaru be the only ashigaru unit that would make sense in upgrading?
    Ready for Three Kingdom's TW: I5-6600k, EVGA Geforce GTX 1070SC, 16Gigs RAM, WD Blue PC SSD @ 500GB
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited May 2012
    I think any ashigaru unit can work well when upgraded if it fits into your build. I use vetted yari ash in almost every battle and they are very much superior to fresh ones.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    edited May 2012
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    Would Matchlock ashigaru be the only ashigaru unit that would make sense in upgrading?

    Quick answer No, but again, it depends. I prefer taking two 0-lvl match sams to higl level match WM (2relaod 2accu 1range). 2 units will force your opponent to sacrifice significant resources to take them out (better to waste their cav on matchlocks then charge your general or core rear) or he'll let them shoot through whole match making them excellent investment for you - one way or the other. It's a win-win situation for you. With matchlocks it's not about their kill number only. I find upgrading them fairly inefficient way of spending money. Their kills will depend on many factors /position, enemy response, terrain, game length, and least to their level. Better take 2 units then one good, I often hapens one unit to get killed while other shoots whole time. One unit blocked while other had great position etc.
  • MadEwokMadEwok Member Registered Users Posts: 43
    edited September 2012
    I was just playing a ranked match and expected to have some fun as i use to do. But then i meet this lame shooter spammer..

    We were both fots, so i brought my vet 5 french and american marines, Lvl 5 Tosa, plus 3 lvl 4 vetted black bear in addition to 3 spear levy's. Then i see his army, and his ENTIRE army was made of dragon's azure force.. 7 units with 3 black bears.. Oh gawd, how am i supposed to win vs those lame shooter spammers? .___.

    He had so many shooters that he had like 2 units for each of my vets, so i lost badly. In addition to that, he had so many units he had no problem in taking the dojos because he knew i couldn't charge straight on, so the time was against me too. I hate people like him, just spamming one specific unit and just attacking with that. So: Do you know how to handle lame strategies such as this? It just ruins the fun in MP when you meet spammers of any type. :/
  • TheCrazyCatTheCrazyCat Banned Banned Users Posts: 1,502
    edited September 2012
    oh let me fix that, your army was inefficient to deal with such army overall. fielding a lvl 5 tosa takes alot of money your better off with vanilla armstrongs, extended range infantry. tosas are a tad too limited except on like tohoku forest where its flat and foresty. your better off fielding vanilla imp/shog infantry over lvl4 black bears.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    edited September 2012
    Well, meeting line inf spam is fairly normal in this game. On some maps (like rivers) 10 vanilla linies +4 decent Ki's are best build you can take. On wide, open maps 6+ units of line inf is quite normal. Almost nothing is lame in fots. You'll meet bushido, yari kachi spams, no cav huge infantry armies, rev cav strong builds, cav cores, everything. But vs good micro player no build guarantees sucess. Bushido is pretty effective vs noobs btw.

    First, your army is clumsy. Tosas - don't use them, nobody does. Waste of resources, to few men. Upgrades are almost inadvisable for line inf - if you want better line inf, just take more expensive unit, they are scaled pretty accurately cost/effectiveness. If you must use white bears +2 reload. On wider maps I take 6 linies with 2 150 rangers (1 shog, 4 Ki's, 1 SGC). Or 7 with 1 150 ranger. My melee heavy build has 5 linies (1 marine) 3 shogs and 2 levys. My Ki's have 3 att 1 morale 1 def upgrades. Tailor your army to map in fots, it's crucial. Learn /print all maps. I advise you to shamelessly copy some of those builds I've menition. Your chances gonna be fair vs anything, all you need is skill and experience.
  • MadEwokMadEwok Member Registered Users Posts: 43
    edited September 2012
    Oh, allright, i'll change my army a bit. First off: Do you have a link to images of all the maps? That would come handy.

    I am not too sure about what these units are. "1 shog, 4 Ki's, 1 SGC" I assume SGC is shogunate guard cavalry and Ki might be kihetai.

    One last question too: Is speed worth upgrading on marines? In fots it seems like the ability to move into lines asap is very important, but due to that fact that i won't be able to change it, i haven't done it yet. ^^
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,529
    edited September 2012
    Maps? Here
    http://www.sendspace.com/file/a3vb2i

    shog is shogitai. SGC you've got right, Ki is of course yari Ki.

    Forget speed upgrades. Difference is minimal. Don't screw up your marines by anything except accu, reload and range (lvl5)
  • coincoin Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 2
    edited November 2012
    I cant even beat the cpu on normal, already lost twice :(, I could play on campaign but Im still not used to real time battling and movement and predictions.
  • Man o' WarMan o' War Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 973
    edited November 2012
    Stick with it coin.

    S2 isn't the easiest Total War game if it's your first punt at the series but you will master it with a little perseverance.

    Thoriens excellent guide is really for those with an understanding of the game who wish to venture into Multiplayer, it's not really for advice against CPU opponents.

    First thing to do mate is the tutorials to help you get used to using and moving your units.
    Play an easy campaign, there's no shame in it, it's to help you learn the game.

    Read this guide as well, it's very helpful. http://forums.totalwar.org/vb/showthread.php?137395-Frogbeastegg-s-Guide-to-Total-War-Shogun-II

    I think there may be some campaign battle tutorials out there somewhere on you tube or the like, they may be worth watching.

    As I said, stick with it, it's a fun and rewarding game and before too long we'll see you on the MP battlefield.
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