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Shogun 2 Multiplayer is unbalanced

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  • SchulzSchulz Junior Member Posts: 22Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Mr.Crack wrote: »
    Yes, it should. Just slightly more difficult. Not enough to totally put people off but just enough so that buying the game for its multiplayer content becomes another incentive to buy it.
    ...And that, my friend, is called being unbalanced. That is some thing "normal" games shouldn't be. Games, especially multiplayer games should give all players equal chance of winning and losing, something which the Shogun 2 Multiplayer does not.
    "In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit."
    -Miyamoto Mushashi, Japanese swordsman and rōnin.
  • SchulzSchulz Junior Member Posts: 22Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Its called "Fall of the Samurai" for a reason - the clue is in the title.

    S2 armies vs FotS is unbalanced - which is why there is the achievement for beating one...
    Really? Do you even listen to yourself? You honestly think that the Creative Assembly has made that achievement you're speaking of (Keeping to Traditions) to prove the game is unbalanced or because it is more difficult for Shogun 2 armies to defeat FotS armies?
    If so, how about the achievement called "Modernisation"?! It is unlocked when beating a Shogun 2 army with a FotS army!!! So does that mean that defeating a Shogun 2 army is more difficult? It doesn't make any sense! Leave achievements out of this, it's stupid!

    The title shouldn't have anything to do with how the game is balanced. I could make a game called Cow, being all about Sheep instead.Still, the title Fall of the Samurai does, indeed, indicate to the fall of the samurai traditions, yet multiplayer and single-player are two different things!!!
    ...However, a bow is a far superior weapon in the hands of an expert bowman...
    Yes! It is true, but do you see any sign of that in Shogun 2 or even FotS? I don't! The bow units in both games shoot as if they were blind or had too much to drink, or even both; their accuracy is TERRIBLE! Hell, I bet even a horse, if given a bow and an arrow, could shoot better than the bow units! So, while guns keep their "real-life accuracy", bows on the other hands seem to have lost theirs, totally! It's simply just silly and frustrating for players who use bow units!!!!

    The enemy firearms units are wearing uniform without protection for gods sake!! WITHOUT ANY PROTECTION! Yet they survive valleys of arrows raining upon them, and manage to defeat the enemy.
    "In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit."
    -Miyamoto Mushashi, Japanese swordsman and rōnin.
  • Thorien_KellThorien_Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,529Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    About your original post. Well mostly I disagree with you.

    Firstly, you presume that TW MP is designed to be balanced. Hey, blizzard /starcraft does it, so why shouldn't everybody? Money is first and obvious answer. Publishers attract buyers with giving them essentially better units which they try to balance as best as they could into old game, but it's not just about the money. Thing is that with Shogun series, developer wanted to illustrate the evolution of Japanese military history. That's why we have cr-apy ROTS units and more evolved and organized FOTS units. How realistic or sensible would be in making an armies of different era balanced? Would you expect CIV phalanx to beat an legion? That is why you have "disable avatars" button - nobody forces you to fight other army type, but hey, if you special desire to do so - be our guest. That is the policy.

    And that is interesting challenge indeed. You are disregarding the fact that many people found out effective ways of dealing with "superior" armies. Thus it's really possible - making your whole rant moot, really.
  • FalconFalcon Senior Member Posts: 105Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    I played S2 a lot and after a break I decided to bite the bullet and get FOTS even though I didn't like empire/napoleon gunpowder battles. I'm glad I did, I find it to be much better balanced and more strategic than I expected it to be by this time. Also unexpected was that traditional armies are capable of beating FOTS armies when composed and used correctly. I have been on both sides of the coin and I found S2 armies vs. FOTS armies to be a refreshing change of pace and another facet of variety to the multi-player game.

    ONE THAT IS COMPLETELY OPTIONAL

    You cannot use your S2 army in the same fashion when fighting FOTS armies. I have played with and against many players that used several effective and successful strategies that would completely fail if they were playing another S2 army.

    THAT IS WHY IT IS COMPLETELY OPTIONAL

    If you are completely unable to beat any FOTS players it may be that you are not as good of a player as you believe. The S2 vs. FOTS is a bonus, an extra, that is not intended to have tournament quality balance but provide variety to the game, which it does, and be possible for either side to win, which it is.

    WHICH IS WHY IT IS COMPLETELY OPTIONAL

    Every game today has to track your stats and trap you into a narrow track and it makes everything so serious and limited. I wish more games would go back to providing variety, even if it is kind of silly. I miss unlimited ammo mode, big head mode, *******s only, 3x speed, moon jumpers kind of stuff. I know there are people that like to treat games like a job and don't appreciate that.

    THAT IS WHY IT IS AVAILABLE AND ALSO COMPLETELY OPTIONAL

    I know I'm beating a dead horse here but come on, would you be complaining if they had just left the option out entirely? Somehow I doubt it.

    PS: Spock slaps you for -13HP for being illogical. You cannot pick and choose 1 or 2 maps to critique balance for all units, even just between S2 units. Some units are more suited to certain terrain conditions, and it is kind of a fundamental part of the game.
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Schulz wrote: »
    If you really are a "bushido" player, you would know that cheaper units=lesser morale. It is idiotic to argue about this when you obviously see the differences in morale between cheaper and "normal-expensive" units. You can even see the differences in the unit selection section, where all of a unit's Melee defence, attack, range, bonus vs cavalry, INCLUDING MORALE, etc, stats is shown.

    I don't know why, but something tells me you don't play using a Shogun 2 army, or perhaps that you don't have enough experience regarding the issue I've brought forth in this thread. No offence, of course.

    don't play s2 avatar anymore because i prefer fots, so if i need to fight i can build my army to the needs of the battle, but most the time i have a fots bushido army, and when i do play s2, it's only 2v2 not 1v1, since it's boring but even so, a large amount of cav and katana/yari sam can out perform most fots armies, so the yari has the rapid advance, then katana behind while yari soaks up all the hits, then since s2 don't have caps on cav, 5 yari cav should do it
    a multi line set up wouldn't be able to stop it, only shogi's could
    and cheaper units don't always mean less morale, and morale only becomes a factor against other melee, but if you have numbers, a lot of fots skirmish builds do have limitations so they can only perform to a standard area, for example my rush build can only fight up to 2500 men in a 1v1, thats my armies limits.
    i find that even though your a s2 player, you have a lot of cheaper and better units,
    and also since this game is a game based 200 years ahead from s2, balancing is fine, if you balanced the game for s2 also
    no one would play guns, it's would be only swords on field
    Fear God, Honor King
  • ShiroiKibanShiroiKiban Member Posts: 43Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    In my opinion. I think yes it is unbalanced but only slightly... The reason because ppl jump into the conclusion is not only the gunpowder units and the artillery. Yes both of them are "stronger" then sword, spears and bows. This is just naturally and it should be like this. A head on charge into rifles should be suicide! So old shogun 2 plays should start to invent better strategies to win against it. These things are fine and justified.

    BUT HERE is the main reason why the game is out of the balance !!!! or things that are just plain wrong in everypoint !!
    First the cavalary, here FoTS ppl got Gunpowder cav which can just destroy everything without getting caught...you want to chase them of with spears ? get kited... You want to get rid of them by using yari cav? Get kited into rifles. You want to fight them of with bows ? Which bows they got already obliterated by them.
    This is just a minor aspect. The main issue why ppl think FoTS is just wrong. They look at the Yari ki and the mounted Yari Samurai. The Yari Ki is cheaper AND stronger than the Yari Samurai kav!!! This is just hilarious is the concluison of the majority and I agree too.
    Why should a modern cav who despise old weapons and don´t train it be way better than my cav based on a 200 year old tradition in fighting and training ?
    Stop arguing that they are capped it doesnt matter at all !!! Just the simple comparison is wrong.

    Second, the melee Infanterie. You think hey I use Katana samurai they will **** FotS armys with ease.... Oh wait they have shogitai...
    The Shogitai literally ****s every melee unit you can have as a old Shogun 2 user. Are they at least more expensive ? No...
    On the first view yes they are, but upgrade a Katana Samurai to the same funds as a Shogitai. It still will **** your Katana Samurai.
    Here you can say hey your unit similar to the shogitai is the No-dachi. This is just a mehh answer. No Dachi are only worht it if you get a good charge of. Even if you get a perfect charge of the Shogitai will still win against the No dachi but not with far superior numbers.

    In conclusion the majority of ppl are just ****ed about of FotS because they have no advantage in the way they expected it.
    The mind set is: hey they have guns and Artillery, but my army is the ultimate beast fighting monster in the melee and cavalery section.
    The sad part about is even in melee and cavalry you are in an disadvantage...this should be the opposite imo.
    Overall I think it is quite possible to win against a FotS army there are just some tweaks that have to be done to make it perfect

    I don´t care if guns and artilery are ****** me. But it makes me cry that they are stronger in melee and cav.

    TL: DR : the only unbalanced issue is : Yari ki on comparison to Yari cav samurai is way too unequal in favor for the Yari Ki, mounted guns are obliterating old shogun 2 armys. Shogitai cost the same as a low vet Katana samurai and they **** the Katana with ease. This is just wrong.
  • Marshal SuchetMarshal Suchet Senior Member Posts: 2,077Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Its not that hard to beat a fots army with an s2 one. Get a load of cavalry (8 should be plenty), cheap loan swords and ashigaru, mixed with some attendants and send about 4/5's of your army at your opponents flank while you leave a few infantry units opposite your opponents front to pin it. That should win you most of your battles vs the average players in the matchmade, especially since s2 has cheaper infantry and lots of diverse melee cavalry options so making some nasty rush builds is really quite easy.

    If you still have problems fighting FOTS builds despite the fact that they fold pretty fast the moment you get them in melee, just de-select the "fight FOTS avatars" option in your battlelist or matchmade games.
    RedStag
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    FoTS was never balanced to match S2 why do you think the unit sizes don't even match? If you want the challenge simply tic mixed for avatar fights and if not leave it unchecked - not that hard. All this when the answer is right under their nose. O.o
  • ShiroiKibanShiroiKiban Member Posts: 43Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    well, overall I have no problem against FotS armies. I just do it with bows works perfect too. I was just pointing out what the majority of the people are thinking.

    The argument just unmark the "allow mixed avatar" is just naive... Then in the first place never implement it. If it was never intended to "balance" both games.
    Only several ppl like to play a game against their favor. Still the majority want a 50%/50% to win a match. That is why they are so mad and because they have not really the "advantage" in the category they expected called superior melee and cav.


    I like to play vs FotS. I think it is already balanced to a certain point, thats for sure. Just some tiny tweaks and it is perfect =)

    Right now I would say it is like 60%/40% for equally skilled player in favor of the FotS. It is not huge. It is still manageable to win.

    I don´t play the game because I have to win it.To be honest I don´t even care about winning or losing.Sure I am happy if I win. Still I just enjoy the game and love it how it is in all it´s aspects. ( not the mass of bugs, like limber super human cannons ;-) )
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,784Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    I created a petition to CA for them to make the Bow units for the vanilla and RoTS armies to be stronger against the FoTS players to give the underlings a better chance of winning. But, I agree, the current system of the game is to unbalanced for the fun of it, and the artillery are extremly powerful and need to have either an accuracy nerf, or a range nerf, or ammo nerf.
    Ready for Three Kingdom's TW: I5-6600k, EVGA Geforce GTX 1070SC, 16Gigs RAM, WD Blue PC SSD @ 500GB
  • the bourgeoisiethe bourgeoisie Senior Member Posts: 625Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    or they could just have a price increase, did you think of that
    Fear God, Honor King
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,784Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    or they could just have a price increase, did you think of that

    Problem with the price increase is that the controversial "money cheat/hack" is still in the game, so increasing the price of units wouldn't help that much. I guess it would to those who don't know about the hack/cheat, but to those who do, it simply won't work out to well.
    Ready for Three Kingdom's TW: I5-6600k, EVGA Geforce GTX 1070SC, 16Gigs RAM, WD Blue PC SSD @ 500GB
  • FalconFalcon Senior Member Posts: 105Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    Problem with the price increase is that the controversial "money cheat/hack" is still in the game, so increasing the price of units wouldn't help that much. I guess it would to those who don't know about the hack/cheat, but to those who do, it simply won't work out to well.

    Unit balance and money cheats have absolutely nothing to do with each other. . .
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    A price increase for line infantry would utterly destroy the balance of FotS vs FotS. Just imagine the amount of melee rushing and spamming that would occur. Btw, in case you didn't know, FotS melee units, both infantry and cavalry, are superior to S2's in terms of cost-effectiveness while line infantry spam is beatable. There's also carbine cav and revolver cav against which you hardly have a counter unless you spam bow cav. By implementing a line price increase, you would destroy the FotS vs FotS balance and actually make it harder on yourselves as well. The problem is that you don't understand the game well enough to realize it.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • FalconFalcon Senior Member Posts: 105Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    FOTS is mostly balanced against FOTS.

    S2 is mostly balanced against S2.

    FOTS vs. S2 is a fun option and both sides do have a chance of victory (doesn't mean its 50/50).

    Attempting to completely balance S2 vs. FOTS at the expense of each games individual balance is a terrible idea.
  • TyrariaTyraria Senior Member Posts: 306Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    i used to play land battle in S2 but never siege but now in FOTS it is the reverse siege is a real pleasure and land battle a real nightmare that cannot ever hope to be balanced.
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,784Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Falcon wrote: »
    Unit balance and money cheats have absolutely nothing to do with each other. . .

    OF course they don't. But adding a increased price for the units can be exploited by those who not only know the money cheats and hacks, but also know how to do it on the actually battlefield as well. So, until CA can resolve that, there should not be any price increase for infantry.
    Ready for Three Kingdom's TW: I5-6600k, EVGA Geforce GTX 1070SC, 16Gigs RAM, WD Blue PC SSD @ 500GB
  • SchulzSchulz Junior Member Posts: 22Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    BUT HERE is the main reason why the game is out of the balance !!!! or things that are just plain wrong in everypoint !!
    First the cavalary, here FoTS ppl got Gunpowder cav which can just destroy everything without getting caught...you want to chase them of with spears ? get kited... You want to get rid of them by using yari cav? Get kited into rifles. You want to fight them of with bows ? Which bows they got already obliterated by them.
    This is just a minor aspect. The main issue why ppl think FoTS is just wrong. They look at the Yari ki and the mounted Yari Samurai. The Yari Ki is cheaper AND stronger than the Yari Samurai kav!!! This is just hilarious is the concluison of the majority and I agree too.
    Why should a modern cav who despise old weapons and don´t train it be way better than my cav based on a 200 year old tradition in fighting and training ?

    I agree. Currently the BIGGEST issue is with the firearm cavalry vs Shogun 2 armies. Bow units are nearly useless vs gun cavalry. If the enemy has anti-cav cavalry, defeating firearm cavalry with Shogun 2 cavalry becomes even harder, if not impossible. But, yes, this is the biggest imbalance in Shogun 2 vs Fots multiplayer battles.
    "In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit."
    -Miyamoto Mushashi, Japanese swordsman and rōnin.
  • SchulzSchulz Junior Member Posts: 22Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    I created a petition to CA for them to make the Bow units for the vanilla and RoTS armies to be stronger against the FoTS players to give the underlings a better chance of winning.

    When you say "stronger" I presume you mean "strong enough" to be capable of dealing FotS units. But, yes, excellent, my dear friend, excellent! :)
    "In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit."
    -Miyamoto Mushashi, Japanese swordsman and rōnin.
  • SchulzSchulz Junior Member Posts: 22Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    Problem with the price increase is that the controversial "money cheat/hack" is still in the game, so increasing the price of units wouldn't help that much. I guess it would to those who don't know about the hack/cheat, but to those who do, it simply won't work out to well.

    Even though I believe we are on the same side regarding the issue with Shogun 2 vs FotS in multiplayer, I believe increasing the price of the artillery unit would perhaps be better than lowering their accuracy or damage. On the other hand, I do believe that the current artillery is very strong, if not too strong, but worrying about people who money hack is unneccecary. I have personally never met someone who has exploited this hack/glitch (or atleast never been aware of someone who has done it), so the hackers are in minority. Therefore, I think CA should think and care for the majority of the players (who don't use any hacks or cheats) and increase the price of artillery pieces, instead of lowering its stats, potentially making the artillery unit useless.
    "In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit."
    -Miyamoto Mushashi, Japanese swordsman and rōnin.
  • TyrariaTyraria Senior Member Posts: 306Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    incrasing the price of armstong to 1700/1800 was discussed and quite hotly but as usual those who pretended not to use it of course said that they were fine at their price.
  • IponuIponu Senior Member Posts: 496Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Is this the ten-millionth thread on this? I still want to add my opinion (if it counts for anything on these forums). I think that there should be a way to reduce the koku for FOTS armies but only slightly, as the most minor change can bring about imbalance. This is because a minor challenge (I have beat many FOTS armies) can cause many players to lose and get upset, and make them go down on the ladder for match-making (it takes much longer for battle-list).
    Rome II better become realistic and historically sensible:

    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/119555-So-Close-to-Being-a-Good-Game...
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Reduce the koku for FoTS? Dude even in 14k people don't have funds to deploy 20 units, most people deploy around 14 units in 14k with FoTS. Increase the funds for S2, do not reduce them for FoTS. O.o

    And no one with a head on their shoulders gives a rats ass about the flawed ladder.
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,784Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Schulz wrote: »
    Even though I believe we are on the same side regarding the issue with Shogun 2 vs FotS in multiplayer, I believe increasing the price of the artillery unit would perhaps be better than lowering their accuracy or damage. On the other hand, I do believe that the current artillery is very strong, if not too strong, but worrying about people who money hack is unneccecary. I have personally never met someone who has exploited this hack/glitch (or atleast never been aware of someone who has done it), so the hackers are in minority. Therefore, I think CA should think and care for the majority of the players (who don't use any hacks or cheats) and increase the price of artillery pieces, instead of lowering its stats, potentially making the artillery unit useless.

    Another thing that I didn't like was how CA implemented the Parrot Cannon. The Parrot Cannon is a American Civil War era cannon that shot straight, not at an angle, and was among the first rifled cannons to be used in combat. While they got the model right, the trajectory and angle of the shot is way off which makes it look more like a mortar than a cannon. Now, the Armstrong gun on the other hand should have its price increased by a couple thousand so people don't spam them like crazy.
    Ready for Three Kingdom's TW: I5-6600k, EVGA Geforce GTX 1070SC, 16Gigs RAM, WD Blue PC SSD @ 500GB
  • SchulzSchulz Junior Member Posts: 22Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    AMP wrote: »
    Reduce the koku for FoTS? Dude even in 14k people don't have funds to deploy 20 units, most people deploy around 14 units in 14k with FoTS. Increase the funds for S2, do not reduce them for FoTS. O.o

    Indeed! Let Shogun 2 players have more money! Their units are weaker damage-per-unit wise than FotS ones!
    "In fighting and in everyday life you should be determined though calm. Meet the situation without tenseness yet not recklessly, your spirit settled yet unbiased. An elevated spirit is weak and a low spirit is weak. Do not let the enemy see your spirit."
    -Miyamoto Mushashi, Japanese swordsman and rōnin.
  • CorsairCorsair Junior Member Posts: 22Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    i disagree, the only thing i would say is overpowered is the gun general and his sniper soldiers, apart from that, i've only ever lost once to a fots general using standard shogun 2 units.

    what you have to remember is that against gun soldiers pretty much ALL of your soldiers outlcass them in melee, even bloody loan sword ashigaru; therefore it is not about the quality of your troops but the morale and numbers of your troops.

    You need a certain amount of peasants near your general for the morale buff as your main attack force, with samurai (no veterans !!) pushing him on his flanks, and cavalry stopping him shooting; light cavalry CAN work but they take 1 - 2 volleys and they're down, yari cavalry is obviously twice as expensive so you have to be twice as careful ;)

    It's really just all about cutting off his line of fire ... he can't shoot his own men in the back :)
  • treetree Senior Member Posts: 806Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Indeed! Let Shogun 2 players have more money! Their units are weaker damage-per-unit wise than FotS ones!

    Wait a sec here Shogun 2s cheapest unit is the nag attn at 150 koku a pop perfect meat shield able to fight cav good, moral for the fire sale cost.

    FOTS cheapest unit 400 koku matchlock kachi considered a ok meat shield at times but the smaller unit size and lower range makes most FOTS gens not favor them over the white tigers.

    Moving on
    2nd cheapest unit for shogun 2 200 koku sword attendant good moral not as flexible as the nag but overall a good unit for the price.

    White tiger cost 500 koku weak weak moral with 4 however its larger unit size is ok still not a cheap unit and is famous for mass routing from gun fire or hand to hand combat.

    My point here is that Shogun 2 players have more flexible picks in terms of cheaper units I would use that to help you quite a bit.
    Another thing that I didn't like was how CA implemented the Parrot Cannon. The Parrot Cannon is a American Civil War era cannon that shot straight, not at an angle, and was among the first rifled cannons to be used in combat. While they got the model right, the trajectory and angle of the shot is way off which makes it look more like a mortar than a cannon. Now, the Armstrong gun on the other hand should have its price increased by a couple thousand so people don't spam them like crazy.

    I would like this change for the parrot. And the arms should be considered for a cost increase.
  • ivolaranjeiraivolaranjeira Junior Member Posts: 1Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    I'm sorry for my English but...
    I think you have two different problems.

    One: Modern Weapons vs Medieval Weapons. Always modern armies will have advantage this is history. Sure, is true in History and I think that need to be at Total War too. It's Ok. For a medieval or melee army obtain the victory is dificult but not impossible, you need to have a killer strategy.

    Two: Generals with more experience have killer units, and in most of cases a decisive advantage. Some times I get very angry with this but I think it's the real world, it's a most crazy and cool thing in S2TW. It's her beauty and perfection . Sure, think with me, Napoleon or Alexander were winners because had most dangerous and powerful armies on history, not only the better strategy. The Alexandre's cavalary was invencible. How the Alexander enemies felt on the battlefield? Napoleon? Was a most powerful and scoundrel artilhary spamer in history. Better and biggest artilhary always.

    One another common mistake of understanding is:
    What is real strategy on total war?
    Total war try to be a simulation of classical wars. Maybe not so classical on Shogum but anyway, (...) the real strategy happens on the plan of battle execution.
    You need to have real understanding of terrain, fire power, and velocity of game. Is not "real time strategy", the wars, the battles it's like chess. 95% of the players cry all the time about artilhary, firearms, melee units, cavalary power. "-Spam this." "-Spam that." But how much you know about classical military strategy actually for to be able to become a good player of total war? Please, think about terrain. Know the terrain, is have real power on this game. Always was...
    You dont move yourself, you do your enemy move himself.

    So think I already said to much. Sorry if I was rude, is not my intention. I love this game, believe me, improve your strategy and your army this game is the best total war ever (sure, RTW does not compare with anything).

    We need to make a reclaim about the many cavalary and infantry bugs....
  • AMPAMP Senior Member Posts: 1,225Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    tree wrote: »
    Wait a sec here Shogun 2s cheapest unit is the nag attn at 150 koku a pop perfect meat shield able to fight cav good, moral for the fire sale cost.

    FOTS cheapest unit 400 koku matchlock kachi considered a ok meat shield at times but the smaller unit size and lower range makes most FOTS gens not favor them over the white tigers.

    Moving on
    2nd cheapest unit for shogun 2 200 koku sword attendant good moral not as flexible as the nag but overall a good unit for the price.

    White tiger cost 500 koku weak weak moral with 4 however its larger unit size is ok still not a cheap unit and is famous for mass routing from gun fire or hand to hand combat.

    My point here is that Shogun 2 players have more flexible picks in terms of cheaper units I would use that to help you quite a bit.

    Sure they are cheaper but you're missing one thing... they only have 75 men in them, so it's not really that beneficial. Having a cheap meat shield doesn't matter much anyway against a smart FoTS player that just brings a balanced build himself and lets his melee infy do the tanking once your meat shield gets close.
    Corsair wrote: »
    i disagree, the only thing i would say is overpowered is the gun general and his sniper soldiers, apart from that, i've only ever lost once to a fots general using standard shogun 2 units.

    what you have to remember is that against gun soldiers pretty much ALL of your soldiers outlcass them in melee, even bloody loan sword ashigaru; therefore it is not about the quality of your troops but the morale and numbers of your troops.

    You need a certain amount of peasants near your general for the morale buff as your main attack force, with samurai (no veterans !!) pushing him on his flanks, and cavalry stopping him shooting; light cavalry CAN work but they take 1 - 2 volleys and they're down, yari cavalry is obviously twice as expensive so you have to be twice as careful ;)

    It's really just all about cutting off his line of fire ... he can't shoot his own men in the back :)


    And a good FoTS player doesn't bring a horde of linemen against a S2 player.
  • treetree Senior Member Posts: 806Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Sure they are cheaper but you're missing one thing... they only have 75 men in them, so it's not really that beneficial. Having a cheap meat shield doesn't matter much anyway against a smart FoTS player that just brings a balanced build himself and lets his melee infy do the tanking once your meat shield gets close.

    They can still make a unit waste a volley or charge. They fill in both of those roles nicely.
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