Adorbs

Upgrades?

dark as silverdark as silver Senior MemberPosts: 1,645Registered Users
Looking over veteran set up guides on youtube its obvious that everyone has a different opinion, I've seen people say FotS line for example ought to be 2 reload, 2 reload and suppressive fire, training them all the way up to get kneel fire or extra range and even not upgrading. So I'm making this thread to find out what people think optimum veteran setups are, particularly in fots but also in shogun

Personally I lean towards no upgrades on line or 2 reload and suppresive fire and try and upgrade charge and attack on cav
Post edited by dark as silver on

Comments

  • The KestrelThe Kestrel Senior Member Posts: 848Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    I look at the stats that I actually end up using, and then choose the lowest. For example, I make sure to get the melee defense for no dachi samurai because that triples their ability to sustain combat. My "plan" varies greatly from unit to unit and is often a result of how I want to use the unit.
  • ThesaboteurThesaboteur Senior Member Posts: 812Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    First of all it's all about you, not them. Find a army that suits you and upgrade it. I use a defensive army that can lay down fire very quickly, hence I use Guards. The guards fight to the death (Sort of, 20 men out of 150 is close) and they rarely break from cav. charges. Find something you like and experiment with it, the less weaknesses your army has the better it will be.
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,645Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    First of all it's all about you, not them. Find a army that suits you and upgrade it. I use a defensive army that can lay down fire very quickly, hence I use Guards. The guards fight to the death (Sort of, 20 men out of 150 is close) and they rarely break from cav. charges. Find something you like and experiment with it, the less weaknesses your army has the better it will be.
    I do, this wasn't me searching for a better build it was me trying to gauge the metagame, Could you perhaps say what upgrades you give your guards and why because other wise your post is totally irrelevant.
  • Thorien KellThorien Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Optimum veteran builds in shogun2? As ppl pointed out, hard to say really. I saw many effective core setups, from sam classic core to mid upgraded nagi core +powerful ranged, ashigaru/WM core, naginata WM armored spam rush core, to matchlock attendant WM spammy combinations. Everything is used and everything is deadly in a hands of a competent player.
  • YojiYoji Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    FOTS: Personally, I am using more and more vanilla or lightly upgraded line infantry and spending the rest on cav and melee.

    It's been said already but it depends, people spend upgrades on what they think is going to win the battle.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Just dropping by for a comment on cav upgrades: Anything above 20 charge seems like a waste of koku. The charges are somewhat random in their effectiveness it seems, and even when you can get a good charge off the difference is hardly noticeable. Go for morale or defense or save the money altogether.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,645Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Optimum veteran builds in shogun2? As ppl pointed out, hard to say really. I saw many effective core setups, from sam classic core to mid upgraded nagi core +powerful ranged, ashigaru/WM core, naginata WM armored spam rush core, to matchlock attendant WM spammy combinations. Everything is used and everything is deadly in a hands of a competent player.

    I'm not thinking about full armys just individual units, maybe I shouldn't have said builds in my description since you're not the only one who seems to be confused.
  • general_advancegeneral_advance Senior Member Posts: 111Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    dont have FoTS yet personally but playing mostly with FoTS players it seems that just like napoleon often upgrades are an unnecessary waste of cash, a few things i would agree with is upped range reload and accuracy on marines and very cheap units like white tigers, very cost effective. its all down to playstyle in S2, which is nice because so many different build types work and with the rpg-esque upgrade system you really do personalise them. also i tend to see suppressing fire making little in the way of an impact and still dont get why people bother with it
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Suppressing fire is worthwhile because it decreases the morale of the unit that gets hit. If you apply it at the right time you can route certain units faster and free up more troops, generally making the game much easier.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • general_advancegeneral_advance Senior Member Posts: 111Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    maybe im just seeing it used badly mostly then coz i see alot just throwing it on at the start of an engagement when really its a late use thing to bust morale
  • Thorien KellThorien Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    I look at the stats that I actually end up using, and then choose the lowest. For example, I make sure to get the melee defense for no dachi samurai because that triples their ability to sustain combat. My "plan" varies greatly from unit to unit and is often a result of how I want to use the unit.

    That is exactly the opposite I do and recommend. IMHO it's a terrible mistake upgrading the units you describe. Raise dominant/bigger stat. No dachi are made for killing as quickly as possible, to use vs high defence units - not to defend. Defence of 1 or 4 is hardly difference at all. It's cr ap in both cases.
  • The KestrelThe Kestrel Senior Member Posts: 848Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    I often get attack and charge for the no dachi as well, but as a large portion of my core, I find that they hold up better in the unfortunate case of sustained combat with defense. This is especially the case when they are engaging monks, because the initial charge will kill many, but often does not break them. Their high morale allows them to hold on past the duration of the charge.

    I tend to get 1-2 attack, melee defense, 1-2 charge, and morale for a center-placed no dachi. Those at the flanks get morale and lots of charge (morale because they will not get bonuses from their nearby comrades and charge as they often sweep up flanks).

    Thorien, I know that you are a highly-esteemed player, so I would appreciate further suggestions on this.

    As a side note, for my soon to be rank 9 Bow Cavalry, should I increase missile damage to even higher amounts or increase range? How much does range increase with upgrades?
  • Thorien KellThorien Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    You won't like my advices ; ) You are using your units wrong. No dachi are great units, but they are shock troops, not core. I have yet to face no dachi core army to even remotely endanger me. One more thing: No high rank players use them as a core. I have plenty of friends in ladder top 100 and play with top tier players every day. No dachi enabled with defense like yours for core duty will be useless vs really good core army. When you face lvl 9 naginata with 18 defence, armor 10 and banzai? Or WM with defence of 23? What then? they will break like waves on rocks. Use katanas, naginatas or WM as core. About upgrades, I wrote everything already in my LITTLE SCHOOL post. Raise attack only. NOTHING else, if possible. If you must (for clan upgrades) 1 point in morale, 1 in charge.

    About missile cav (God I hate that unit ; ) raise range. Missile units 1) reload 2)range 3) accuracy - by importance.
  • The KestrelThe Kestrel Senior Member Posts: 848Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Thanks. That actually ought to work. My core is a weird hybrid of naginatas to hold the enemy down and no dachis to rip them to shreds. I thought I needed the defense for when the enemy refused to be ripped to shreds.

    The missile cavalry should be great with range as you say; I hate dealing with infantry archers.

    Thanks again. I guess I gotta start over with the no dachis...

    Oh well, just more battles!
  • TheDukeTheDuke Banned Posts: 365Banned Users
    edited May 2012
    nodachis with 7 def and 24 attack were actually pretty good. If your gonna put def on your nodachis you gotta get both def upgrades. which would make them expensive.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Getting the basic defense and morale upgrades for no dachis to get them into the clan upgrades area is fine. Charge doesn't do anything for them, as illogical as it sounds. Get 4 attack, 1 or 2 defense, 1 morale for no dachi samurai.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • general_advancegeneral_advance Senior Member Posts: 111Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    charge all depends on the spread of a unit, and with no dachi's already pretty much killing every guy they get into contact with on the charge i gotta agree with it being a fairly useless upgrade. 24 attack 7 defense does sound like a ****ed effetice no dachi to me kell, i wouldnt bet on many units wanting to tank that
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    With the upgraded defense they are like a katana with extra attack and banzai. Sure enough, they are also more expensive, but I've seen plenty of good players use them to great effect, even as a core sort of unit. If they don't work for somebody it's because they don't fit his playstyle imo.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Thorien KellThorien Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    As I've already stated once - not everybody will back me up on this, people have their own reasoning and that's OK. For my views pumping up the defense in unit build for offense is waste of resources and fail in understanding real concept behind the unit. I'm searching for article made by some older user that posted here a while ago where he claimed that in their tests having weak defense (4-6) or worse defense (1-2) made no difference in battle results with no dachi units at all, but I cannot find it. In any case you've heard both sides and their arguments - now make your call and decide for yourself.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    I personally upgrade defense to get the 4 basic upgrades completed. I agree that normally giving a no dachi better charge should be a good idea, but it really isn't. I had to delete all mine when I noticed. Anything above 20-25 charge doesn't really matter as you won't hit more people because of it. In this case the "make the unit even better at what it's meant for" policy doesn't work. I have to say that I would prefer it if it did.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Thorien KellThorien Kell Senior Member Posts: 1,087Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    I agree on charge. I never upgrade it in any of my units. Units built for charge - already have good charge. In all other cases it's a waste - like putting anti cav on WM or naginata ;) - I used to love that in my noob days : ) it's just nothing much better you can take. Charge is added as a bonus to attack in several second period after initial charge. And yes, having totally OP attack or even more then totally OP attack is same thing essentially.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Now that I think of it, charge may actually be only useful on units that aren't meant for it, i.e. katana samurai and katana cav. I personally haven't tried it yet, but getting them to the "magical border" that is 20 charge might actually boost their effectiveness. I'd have to test this though and I'm afraid I might waste a katana sam. Then again, I have a single vet slot left, so I could use it for that until I get my 3rd monk cav back.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • ViivrabeViivrabe Senior Member Posts: 434Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    when i upgrade No-dachies i go 2attack 1 defense 2 fatigue resist then 1 defence and more attack
    it makes them beastly units. and i have used them as a core to hold the line.
    i dont think the moral is useful to no-dachies, they are not cowardly ar****aru and have decent moral already.

    the thing you have to remember is Attack, defense and moral all drop as they get tired, so while having more moral may seem like a good idea a unit that is tired takes a -2 moral penalty (they also kill at a slower rate and die quicker) so you could spend 100kuku on moral upgrades to negate this, or 50-100 on fatigue resist and keep them in the fight longer, because they wont die as fast (taking more moral penalties from lost units) and kill faster as well

    now in FotS, i dont spend much on upgrades. thinking about it the only units I field with upgrades are bow kachi with maxed acc and reload, and i use them to take advantage of range and hills. but aside from that i have vanilla cav, vanilla line an un-vetted US marine (not even upgraded to 150 range. no upgrades at all) and unvetted melee (shogati, they can wipe out those nasty mariene units very easily, trading 1.5k unit for a 950 who will have enough men left over to cripple another unit) and an unvetted cannon (amazing how people will do anything in there power to kill off that thing leaving themselves at a severe disadvantage [sacrificing large portions of there cav sure i loose the cannon, but i get the cav advantage which is way more useful])

    Now that I think of it, charge may actually be only useful on units that aren't meant for it, i.e. katana samurai and katana cav. I personally haven't tried it yet, but getting them to the "magical border" that is 20 charge might actually boost their effectiveness.
    on katana cav it is very very effective

    haven't tried on katana sam. let me know what you find out if you do test it out
    Point is, there is a reason that the ESRB does not rate online [play].

    A Knight in shining armor is a knight who has never had his metal truly tested.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Very good point on fatigue resistance. However, I do have the fatigue resistance aura on my general, so it would hardly pay off to upgrade that as I already see my units get tired very rarely.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
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