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Why no Squares?

JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior MemberPosts: 19Registered Users
edited July 2012 in Fall of the Samurai
I know Infantry Squares were nearing the end of their usefulness but during this time period they were still in use. Why must we consistently deal with Cavalry shellgames and spamming without the NORMAL method of countering them.
90% of the people you fight exploit this fact. 2 or 3 Infantry Squares and most of these people wouldn't stand a chance
Post edited by JohnkSmith on
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  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,610Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Some players have already made a thread about this.

    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/38119-No-square-formation

    Try looking there for answers on how to dodge cavalry.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • Colonel MallardColonel Mallard Senior Member Posts: 1,044Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Guns being so powerful and accurate now, I don't think it's necessary to give infantry an ability that makes them immune to cavalry. Hell, why not just give them that? It would do the same as squares to the gameplay...
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it...

    "If at first you don't succeed, you fail."

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    Total War:Barbarian Invasion 2:The Invadening
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,610Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Guns being so powerful and accurate now, I don't think it's necessary to give infantry an ability that makes them immune to cavalry. Hell, why not just give them that? It would do the same as squares to the gameplay...

    Revolver cavalry is also good at anti-cavalry combat with their fast reload rate.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Revolver cavalry would also destroy any squares. The firepower that armies of this day and age had was far too great for squares to be efficient, which is why it's not present in the game. Besides that, the square formation simply wasn't used in the Boshin war.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,610Registered Users
    edited May 2012
    Revolver cavalry would also destroy any squares. The firepower that armies of this day and age had was far too great for squares to be efficient, which is why it's not present in the game. Besides that, the square formation simply wasn't used in the Boshin war.

    Not only that, but artillery can decimate square formations as well, especially seeing how their shrapnel shot has the same range as the explosive shot.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Guns being so powerful and accurate now, I don't think it's necessary to give infantry an ability that makes them immune to cavalry. Hell, why not just give them that? It would do the same as squares to the gameplay...

    You know that could just be why Cavalry first evolved to Mounted Infantry then evolved into Armored vehicles. I'm not asking where is some piece of equipment that made men immune to the charge of cavalry, I,m asking why I'm not allowed to use normal widespread commonly used defenses. As to "gameplay" I have been a fan of Total War Since the first Shogun because it reasonably depicted reality, if I wanted to just play a game I would have bought axis and allies.
  • Half Life ExpertHalf Life Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USAPosts: 4,561Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    JohnkSmith wrote: »
    I know Infantry Squares were nearing the end of their usefulness but during this time period they were still in use. Why must we consistently deal with Cavalry shellgames and spamming without the NORMAL method of countering them.
    90% of the people you fight exploit this fact. 2 or 3 Infantry Squares and most of these people wouldn't stand a chance

    squares require bayonets, which FOTS does not have
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  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Revolver cavalry would also destroy any squares. The firepower that armies of this day and age had was far too great for squares to be efficient, which is why it's not present in the game. Besides that, the square formation simply wasn't used in the Boshin war.

    Neither were the tactics used by gamers that exploit this lack.
  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Revolver cavalry would also destroy any squares. The firepower that armies of this day and age had was far too great for squares to be efficient, which is why it's not present in the game. Besides that, the square formation simply wasn't used in the Boshin war.

    tell ya what you bring 3 units of revolver cav Ill take 1 English NTW line inf and we will see how well that cav does being shot to pieces long before they open fire
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    There was no rev cav in NTW. I think you should watch AMP's videos on revolver cav before you talk.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • DaimyoUesugiDaimyoUesugi Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    There was no rev cav in NTW. I think you should watch AMP's videos on revolver cav before you talk.

    I don't think he was saying there was. I'm pretty sure he was just making a point about infantry squares being able to trump revolver cavalry.
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    are they really needed? line inf will usually beat non elite cav in a fight.
  • MikuferMikufer Senior Member Posts: 568Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    are they really needed? line inf will usually beat non elite cav in a fight.

    Not to mention that elite infantry have 7 bonus against cav.
  • daniudaniu Senior Member Posts: 2,081Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    I don't think he was saying there was. I'm pretty sure he was just making a point about infantry squares being able to trump revolver cavalry.
    Not a valid point, however, Rev Cav would shred a square to pieces within seconds; the lower fire rate is the main problem of squares.
    Rev Cav would take out the side pointing towards them with the first two volleys (for which they don't even need to reload); the square wouldn't even get out of the reformation animation.
  • da Mottada Motta Banned Posts: 124Banned Users
    edited June 2012
    Try to use your infantry in 3 line and you will see that cavalry will loose even if you get attacked in the flanks if your fast enough they will shoot the cavalry, only if your infantry is attacked in the rear .Or just use 2 ashigaru yari in your flanks.
  • dark as silverdark as silver Senior Member Posts: 1,510Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    daniu wrote: »
    Not a valid point, however, Rev Cav would shred a square to pieces within seconds; the lower fire rate is the main problem of squares.
    Rev Cav would take out the side pointing towards them with the first two volleys (for which they don't even need to reload); the square wouldn't even get out of the reformation animation.

    I think squares have the same fire rate, just 1/4 of the unit can fire unless they're surrounded
  • daniudaniu Senior Member Posts: 2,081Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    I think squares have the same fire rate, just 1/4 of the unit can fire unless they're surrounded
    Yes, that is what I meant.
    Against a single attacker, it does have the same effect as a lower fire rate.
  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Revolver cavalry would also destroy any squares. The firepower that armies of this day and age had was far too great for squares to be efficient, which is why it's not present in the game. Besides that, the square formation simply wasn't used in the Boshin war.

    The Square formation was never a beat all concept. To point out the obvious ways to counter a square (you forget its ancient nemesis artillery which can render a tightly packed formation to shreds rather quickly, not to mention how it was not usually a good idea to form a square while infantry might attack it) does nothing but distract from the question.
  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Um this is what is referred to as an abstract concept. Duh there were no revolver cav in NTW. However the idea was that I believe 1 unit of good line infantry in square can defend itself from 3 units of revolver cav.(and thats just a ****ed out number btw before you go thinking I sat down and did complicated math or something) Now is that clear enough for you, or do I need to explain more portions of it with smaller words.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Posts: 2,437Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    I don't see the reason for your condescending attitude. There won't be squares in this game. There's no reason for squares to be in this game. What this game needs is less bugs and useful skirmishers.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    daniu wrote: »
    Not a valid point, however, Rev Cav would shred a square to pieces within seconds; the lower fire rate is the main problem of squares.
    Rev Cav would take out the side pointing towards them with the first two volleys (for which they don't even need to reload); the square wouldn't even get out of the reformation animation.

    I think you underestimate to firepower of "Fire By Rank" but it is also possible I OVER estimate it. I do know the rev cav would take a beating before it could deliver a shot. But you are absolutely right I was making a point. I do know that Lt Dragoons don't stand a chance nor any other missile armed cav so far. And lets not forget that before said Rev Cav. could deliver said shots it must first be subjected to the longer range of the rifle armed square.
    As to getting out of the formation, chances are that same unit just responded to the cav and delivered some damage. Doing so BEFORE taking damage, which is a HUGE improvement over the current situation.
    The biggest advantage these GAMERS use is the distraction. 3 units over here, 4 units over there and while you are trying to counter that his inf take advantage of you trying to cover your little brown star, not to mention how a unit of cav can literally pull off moves that would make a quarter-horse proud or a College Quarterback/Running-back a first round draft pick.
    Its not like the Japanese are unfamiliar with squares. This is not a concept they need to be taught unless the earlier games are completely inaccurate. I suspect they didn't use them because they COULD counter the movements of cav with inf and did not face the same challenges being faced here.
  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    da Motta wrote: »
    Try to use your infantry in 3 line and you will see that cavalry will loose even if you get attacked in the flanks if your fast enough they will shoot the cavalry, only if your infantry is attacked in the rear .Or just use 2 ashigaru yari in your flanks.

    I will give the 3 line idea a try. To be honest I'm less than optimistic. I already include 2 units of veteran levy spear in most army setups specifically for anti cav rear guard actions. Once they can catch the cav its all good for them. I have discovered however ashigaru to be rather spendy and 2 units cost prohibitive unless I'm focusing on a blitz melee attack. However please see my earlier post dealing with what I see as the primary dangers from this exploit.
  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    I don't see the reason for your condescending attitude. There won't be squares in this game. There's no reason for squares to be in this game. What this game needs is less bugs and useful skirmishers.

    Tell you what, you don't treat me like I'm stupid. I won't take offense. Fair enough?
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,610Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Ok, like I said before, Square Formations by this time were obsolete because of several factors.

    1. Artillery: by this time, artillery was becoming very accurate and could shred a square to pieces with either shrapnel shot, or explosive shot.

    2. Cavalry: Cavalry weapons by this time were light enough to where they had the same range of rifles, mainly because of their breech loading carbines which were rifled and had the first generation of bullets as well. Not only that, but cavalry could close in on enemy square formations while skirmish infantry and artillery forces the enemy in the square formation into loose formation, and basically had to lay on the ground making their weapons far less accurate, and increasing their reload time ten fold, or no existent if they are musket armed troops.

    3. Skirmish infantry and snipers: by this time, scoped weapons were becoming far more common from when they were in the American civil war, and therefor further caused the decline of square formations.
    "All it takes for evil to prevail is for good men to do nothing. "
  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    It should be noted that if inf could better respond to the presence of cav I would see no need for squares. In fact outside the PvP the enemy can field an entire army of yari cav for all I care. However there are some very real non-player differences between PvP and Normal Campaign (including PvP campaigns) which all give cavalry huge bonuses while taking from infantry normal abilities( such as Group Units, Defend this area which I never used or needed to).
    So far only one suggestion of those put forth falls in the "New to me, have yet to try that" category. AND that's only the tip of the iceberg of what I have tried.
    Currently (when my comp gets fixed) I will be focusing on Teams as that seems to be the only way to field enough units to cover the flanks.
  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 12,334Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    JohnkSmith wrote: »
    Tell you what, you don't treat me like I'm stupid. I won't take offense. Fair enough?
    How about everyone stay courteous and I don't have to ban anybody?

    That's not a question BTW. That's me telling everyone to behave.
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  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    Ok, like I said before, Square Formations by this time were obsolete because of several factors.

    1. Artillery: by this time, artillery was becoming very accurate and could shred a square to pieces with either shrapnel shot, or explosive shot.

    2. Cavalry: Cavalry weapons by this time were light enough to where they had the same range of rifles, mainly because of their breech loading carbines which were rifled and had the first generation of bullets as well. Not only that, but cavalry could close in on enemy square formations while skirmish infantry and artillery forces the enemy in the square formation into loose formation, and basically had to lay on the ground making their weapons far less accurate, and increasing their reload time ten fold, or no existent if they are musket armed troops.

    3. Skirmish infantry and snipers: by this time, scoped weapons were becoming far more common from when they were in the American civil war, and therefor further caused the decline of square formations.

    This may be true, however those aspects are NOT included in this game. A Square Formation never ceased to be a viable option when faced with lance or sword armed cav. If it were not for the unreal ability of cav vs the very limiting response capability of infantry (not to mention the lack of explosive shells or shrapnel shot that amounts to about 1 round every few minutes) in this game it wouldn't be an issue.
    Um by the way, you might want to reconsider your response portion number 2. Combined forces attacks upon a square has since the beginning of the square concept thousands of years ago been the best way to deal with it. So your not saying anything there that can be considered a new concept.
    Also please stop discounting the very real historical fact that although obsolete, they were not abandoned and saw use when needed even after the Boshin War as late as 1879. Also Wikipedia references the Fuzzy Wuzzy, if you follow that link you will discover it was not until 1883 that the Napoleonic Square was replaced by the large multi-unit formation being referenced earlier. Earlier Napoleonic battalion size formations which included the square as an aspect of, were simply that "Battalion/Brigade Formations".
    I gotta tell you man, after checking MY facts its very clear you need to check yours. There was only 4 years between the American Civil War and the Boshin War. There was another 10 years between the Boshin War and the Fuzzy Wuzzy incident and still another 4 years before the final incarnation of the Infantry Square was even created. Or at least that's what history records.
    So go ahead say it a few more times. Won't make it any more true but you can say it.
    BTW Napoleon branded Austrian Snipers as spies and had them shot when captured, so obviously snipers were not new either.
  • JohnkSmithJohnkSmith Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited June 2012
  • fergusfergus Member Posts: 57Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    One of the ways to beat revolver cav. is to use infantry's superior range, turn your unit to face them well in advance - because if you let them flank you you get decimated by the quick reload rate.
  • Colonel MallardColonel Mallard Senior Member Posts: 1,044Registered Users
    edited June 2012
    squares require bayonets, which FOTS does not have
    They are only not there in theory. In practice they seem to be, hence the anti cav bonus line gets. The only impact this would have on square would be that they would look a bit silly.
    I don't suffer from insanity, I enjoy it...

    "If at first you don't succeed, you fail."

    "All I know is that my gut says maybe" - President Average of the Neutral Planet

    Total War:Barbarian Invasion 2:The Invadening
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