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DirectX 11 in Shogun 2

SystemSystem Posts: 7,062
edited January 2011 in Total War: Shogun 2
Post edited by Unknown User on

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  • About30NinjazAbout30Ninjaz Banned Posts: 223Banned Users
    edited January 2011
    Im certain you can turn the DX11 functionality off. Or else lots of cards out there wouldnt even be able to run it at all.
  • SystemSystem Posts: 7,062
    edited January 2011
    I'm thinking more about how different the game will be if you use DX 11 instead of DX 10, will it be so noticeably different that it's better just to upgrade from my 4850 to something newer or will it hardly be different at all and I should just stick with what I have?
  • ShockedShocked Member Posts: 46Registered Users
    edited January 2011
    Yeah I am wondering whether I will need to upgrade as well, my current graphics card.. a nVidia GTS 250 1 GB doesn't support dx 11
  • About30NinjazAbout30Ninjaz Banned Posts: 223Banned Users
    edited January 2011
    Well, seeing as Metro 2033 is the only "flagship" DX11 game ive played I couldn't really say much. But what I can say is that the DX11 feautures in that game seem absolutely meaningless, tesselation makes things look off at some points and there was another feature that made it so everything farther than ten metres away was rediculously blurry, these features when both on dragged my FPS on max on 1920x1080 down to 30-40 FPS when the game normally runs at 50-70 FPS without the extra features. Now DX11 does look marginally better than DX10 when compared side by side but when your playing the game you really dont notice the difference. Hopefully they leave the option to choose DX11 extra features. Now mind you DX11 is pretty new so it may yet to be properely optimized.
  • AlJabberwockAlJabberwock Moderator Posts: 7,293Moderators, Tech Moderators
    edited January 2011
    Shire,
    LOL, see my PM on that...

    I am also carefully weighing the value of having a DX 11 card for that release, which is to say, I am willing a card to give up the ghost so I can buy one with a free conscience! I have a 6870 ready for a build but that is already promised for my eldest kid (Doh!)
    It would be great if someone with a DX 11 card AND title could tell us what they thought... I will say that if you have XP, it won't matter if you get a DX11 card, since MS is not supporting DX11 for XP (it is available as an update for Vista).

    We actually already know from direct intervention by Craig and some of his hired Animation-Thugs in a thread on these forums about a month or so back that S2 is supporting DX 11, but DX 9 and 10, and 10.1 are also supported. Your card is a 10.1 card (like mine). Some revisions of DX capability are bigger than others. The difference between 9 and 10, for instance, was not so major a change that I saw vastly superior graphics (although metallics were greatly improved imho). DX 11 is a bit different because of the potential impact of tesselation and the new handlers for optimizing the use of multiple cores (multi-threading support is supposed to be improved and backwards handle-able by 9 and 10DX class hardware as well for DX11 drivers, at least that is what is said), and there is always shader 5.0 to consider (a DX 11 only level shader). I do not own any DX 11 titles, so I cannot do a direct evaluation at the moment.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direct_X

    Let me see if I can find the original thread from this forum to link.

    EDIT: AhHAH! Found the thread, although it isn't that informative other than knowing by those shaders that they are supporting 9, 10 and 10.1 as well as 11. Lordmaximus's other questions were deftly unanswered...
    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/3180-6-Questions-for-CA-regarding-S2TW-(Technical)?highlight=technical+question+Shogun

    SECOND EDIT: Sorry About30Ninjaz, was still writing when you posted... Useful information, although hard to say how that translates to S2 in three months. As you say, drivers may very well improve over that time, on the other hand, DX 11 isn't that new anymore, it simply hasn't been that widly used until recently -and the cards have been out for what, over a year anyway...
    Al
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  • About30NinjazAbout30Ninjaz Banned Posts: 223Banned Users
    edited January 2011
    Yea I have a DX11 card AND game...
  • AlJabberwockAlJabberwock Moderator Posts: 7,293Moderators, Tech Moderators
    edited January 2011
    Yeah Sorry about that! You posted while I was till writing, see my second edit above, lol!

    So, you would try them but might want em off you say? What card are you using?
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “Every so often things happen that can’t be rationalized in a conventional way. People wanna know their government has a response. I am that response.”
    ― Kent Mansley (in "Iron Giant")

    For most general problems, for which you have no idea of the culprit, your first port of call should be:
    https://help.sega.com/home

    If you are aware of a bug or a specific issue for which you know the cause, post in the support section for the specific title on our forums. Feel free to PM me or Matthias CA if you haven't received a response within 24 hours, 48 hours on the weekend. ~Al

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
  • About30NinjazAbout30Ninjaz Banned Posts: 223Banned Users
    edited January 2011
    Yes, and no problem :P, i would say that DX11 at its core is preferable over DX10 (ovcourse if you can run it well, even though it isnt a big difference at all.) but with what ive played in games so far I actually think the game looks better without the "special" effects. BTW incase your wondering im using a GTX580.
  • RumpullpusRumpullpus Senior Member Posts: 1,216Registered Users
    edited January 2011
    ATI 4000 series isnt bad ( i got the 4870) and it might be useful to update to a DX11 card soon too.

    but im personally gonna wait, there isnt alot of games out right now that even support DX11 and it really hasnt been out long enough to get all the bugs out i think. the newest cards that support DX11 are gonna be overpriced, and probably not very efficent.

    i say wait until DX11 is more of an industry standard, the card you got now should be fine for a while.
  • HardwaremasterHardwaremaster Senior Member In 3dsmax Los Angeles CaliforniaPosts: 6,391Registered Users, Tech Moderators
    edited January 2011
    On DX 11, the game will be smoother and run better than in DX10, however obviously with the effects like Tessellated animation and Volume lighting, there will be a overall larger load on the Graphics chip than on the CPU.

    All DX11 setting will be optional, theres no way that its required or most people here wouldn't be able to run it.
    The will be a very noticeable difference due to the deferred rendering system they are using. Advanced Shaders, better SSAO or HBAO even.

    Overall Shire I wouldn't be too worried, eventually when you want to upgrade to a DX11 Capable card. You'll be able to enjoy all the changes. Till then you should be fine.

    @Rumpullpus:

    Inturesting you should mention the lack of game support for DX11, actually there are a lot of games that support DX11, its being used 10's of times faster than DX10 was. DX11 is a substantial improvement over DX10 and 9... So much so its being used in record time from release.

    Have you seen the new benchmarks for DX11? its insane!! realtime stuff too.. Check out 3DMark's 2 new benchmarks.
    Very Unusual to say the least.


    @:Everyone:

    Having tested many DX11 titles, such as Metro 2033, Dirt 2, ect..
    I can say that DX11 is going to be the best upgrade for DX since from 8 to version 9b. Tesselation makes textures and organics look much better. Especially in metro 2033 this was portrayed very well, especially after the patch that released the benchmark tool.

    Tesselation still needs a little work, but TES curves are still a WIP and as of yet DX11 doesn't support Sunlight Accumulation on textures. But thats another story, its gonna get much MUCH better over time.

    Totally worth it if your like me and look at the details, also Bokeh Was great in Metro 2033. If you dont like how much there is, adjust the config file.
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  • About30NinjazAbout30Ninjaz Banned Posts: 223Banned Users
    edited January 2011
    @Hardwaremaster:

    Do you think SSAO will be worth it next time around? In Napoleon it dragged my FPS down by 25. I can run the game normally at 50-70 FPS at 1920x1080 at 4xAA with my card. So I really hope before they add anything like HBAO before they better optimize SSAO. Also, is tesselation better in other games than metro? It seems to be unnecessary, and advanced DoF looks pretty rediculous :P.
  • HardwaremasterHardwaremaster Senior Member In 3dsmax Los Angeles CaliforniaPosts: 6,391Registered Users, Tech Moderators
    edited January 2011
    Metro handles Tesselated Textures fine, characters not as much.. The initial rigs for their characters were not designed for TES Curves for Dynamic Tesselated surfaces.

    However everywhere else it really added a lot to the game, you have to have textures on Ultra for you to see the effects.
    Bokeh was a very large step up in terms of Visual representation of DOF Blur, they included Hexi, round, and teardrop shapes for blurring.

    About SSAO, I cant say for sure. But I think that they will probably use HDAO or HBAO, considering large scale DX11 adaptation. Though SSAO works fantastic on my system, could be a recent Driver thing. Then again Nvidia Cards have always been better at running more complex lighting models. Very apparent with my CE3 Tests.

    Overall I can only say that its hopefull.
    Total War Forum: Terms and Conditions
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  • About30NinjazAbout30Ninjaz Banned Posts: 223Banned Users
    edited January 2011
    Whats your GPU set up?
  • AlJabberwockAlJabberwock Moderator Posts: 7,293Moderators, Tech Moderators
    edited January 2011
    LOL, he has a killer SLI rig, not to steal his thunder,... if we all had what he had, sure it would be worth it!
    ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
    “Every so often things happen that can’t be rationalized in a conventional way. People wanna know their government has a response. I am that response.”
    ― Kent Mansley (in "Iron Giant")

    For most general problems, for which you have no idea of the culprit, your first port of call should be:
    https://help.sega.com/home

    If you are aware of a bug or a specific issue for which you know the cause, post in the support section for the specific title on our forums. Feel free to PM me or Matthias CA if you haven't received a response within 24 hours, 48 hours on the weekend. ~Al

    https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/172193/forum-terms-and-conditions#latest
  • RumpullpusRumpullpus Senior Member Posts: 1,216Registered Users
    edited January 2011
    On DX 11, the game will be smoother and run better than in DX10, however obviously with the effects like Tessellated animation and Volume lighting, there will be a overall larger load on the Graphics chip than on the CPU.

    All DX11 setting will be optional, theres no way that its required or most people here wouldn't be able to run it.
    The will be a very noticeable difference due to the deferred rendering system they are using. Advanced Shaders, better SSAO or HBAO even.

    Overall Shire I wouldn't be too worried, eventually when you want to upgrade to a DX11 Capable card. You'll be able to enjoy all the changes. Till then you should be fine.

    @Rumpullpus:

    Inturesting you should mention the lack of game support for DX11, actually there are a lot of games that support DX11, its being used 10's of times faster than DX10 was. DX11 is a substantial improvement over DX10 and 9... So much so its being used in record time from release.

    Have you seen the new benchmarks for DX11? its insane!! realtime stuff too.. Check out 3DMark's 2 new benchmarks.
    Very Unusual to say the least.


    @:Everyone:

    Having tested many DX11 titles, such as Metro 2033, Dirt 2, ect..
    I can say that DX11 is going to be the best upgrade for DX since from 8 to version 9b. Tesselation makes textures and organics look much better. Especially in metro 2033 this was portrayed very well, especially after the patch that released the benchmark tool.

    Tesselation still needs a little work, but TES curves are still a WIP and as of yet DX11 doesn't support Sunlight Accumulation on textures. But thats another story, its gonna get much MUCH better over time.

    Totally worth it if your like me and look at the details, also Bokeh Was great in Metro 2033. If you dont like how much there is, adjust the config file.

    true but from my experince from the games that do use DX11 have been having problems with it mostly stability. (ofcourse this varys from game to game and will only get better the longer DX11 is used)
    that and i dont see how a small performance boost could warrent another $300 being sucked out of my wallet when the card i have now ( ATI HD 4870) can play all of the newest games more then well enough, even if its only DX10.1.

    i have been wonder how well the new DX11 cards have been holding up however, are they more powerful then the 4000 series or is the really all about DX11. because personally i cant see how DX11 can really help that much.
  • HelioconHeliocon Senior Member Posts: 190Registered Users
    edited January 2011
    Throw in my 2 cents as I have alot of experience with comp hardware etc. I just 2 months ago completed my DX11 rig, atm I am waiting for my 580gtx because of EVGA step up. This is what you need to know: DX10 did little interms of effects other then some lighting modifications and some threading. DX11 is the big step so for all intensive purposes if you run dx10 = dx9. Many many new games in 2011 will be dx11, actually properly implemented unlike metro! To comment: Metro makes very very little use of dx11. It does minor tesselation and DOF effects which kill your framerate because they were thrown in last minute. For a sense of DX11 go watch Unigine heaven 2 on youtube, that is near two years old too. I would upgrade, this is coming from someone who avoided going to vista like the plague and delayed an update by 2 years for my current one ^^

    To address the post above: DX11 has a few big +s. 1. Its been redesigned from the ground up vs dx10, it runs more efficient and is far easier to program for. It has a whole host of features with it unlike dx10. DX11 is also programmed to handle multiple data threads from the cpu (multicore) and again makes everything faster.


    So what is dx11 features?
    1. Tesselation = the ability to zoom out and into objects while the GPU dynamically adjusts polygon count for the object or surface. Go search "Ungine Heaven 2 DX11" on youtube, its a benchmark. A good exmaple of tesselation is the cobble stone road is actually ALL geometry. It uses the bump map and extrapolates it out so that each brick, or stone, is actuall polygons. The performance hit is very low also due to the "smart" use of the generation, based on distance and size.
    2. Direct Compute = Far better particle physics (water, smoke, dust - this will give the pooling effects from rain in shogun and I bet your soldies will splash through the mud!). Also reduces performance hit vs dx10/9.
    3. Multithreaded pipeline = the cards can do more things at once simulatneously. Also if you have a multicore CPU the gpu communicates much more efficiently.
    4. Improved physics for cloth and hair etc

    So basically DX11 will give you from what I can imagine/seen:
    Much more detailed soldiers, especially upclose due to tesselation. It would be like maxing out the details at ultra but not taking any performance hit since its based on distance and what you yourself can see with your resolution.
    Better lighting effects in general, including fire, ambient lights etc.
    Better physics in smoke, fog that can dynamically move while troops distrub it, volumetric clouds. Water effects for troops having a bath. Flags and banners will ripple realistically and may be affected by the wind, maybe trees also.
    Better Anti aliasing and performance all around. Especially better for ship battles btw.

    And of course last but not least: All of this also = bigger battles! DX11 is far more efficient then previous versions and with Win7 + multicore cpu (you want to get prob a Bulldozer or i7).

    But ya no point in upgrading your gpu unless you have a 4 core CPU, and of course you are "required" to run Win7 (and you want that in 64 bit :P).
  • GrudgeNLGrudgeNL Senior Member Posts: 7,082Registered Users, Cakes!
    edited January 2011
    @Heliocon

    And not the forget the dozens of dynamic lights will be added too =D
    Yay, cant wait to see how long my gamers laptop will be able to handle that lol. ( I give it 12 minutes)
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  • lordmaximus77lordmaximus77 Technical Moderator Leeuwarden, NLPosts: 3,063Registered Users, Moderators, Tech Moderators
    edited January 2011
    Well this interview confirms DirectX 11 Tesselation support: http://news.bigdownload.com/2011/01/05/interview-we-chat-with-the-creative-assembly-about-total-war-s/
    The game will be one of the few titles that will use DirectX 11 graphical features to its fullest. What can you tell us about some of the more cooler aspects of the graphics in the game?

    The engine was rewritten to support Direct X 11 and to take advantage of the latest DX11 hardware providing tessellation support and longer shaders essentially improving the level of detail and variety in the terrain, buildings and the units. The integration of DX11 also allows us to support asynchronous animation resulting in a more irregular and immersive experience; gone are the days of the clone army!

    We are currently working with graphics partners to optimize our overall graphics performance and DX11 helps to both speed up the rendering and allows us to deliver visual improvements and an all-round smoother frame rate.
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  • About30NinjazAbout30Ninjaz Banned Posts: 223Banned Users
    edited January 2011
    How do you guys think a GTX 580 will stand up to this awesome? :P
  • darren jkdarren jk Senior Member Posts: 2,059Registered Users
    edited January 2011
    Whats really weird is i know what you guys are talking about.This forum is educational i have learned some cool stuff.
    VENI VIDI VICI :D
  • HelioconHeliocon Senior Member Posts: 190Registered Users
    edited January 2011
    They confirmed DX11 a long time ago for the game. Here is a good nuget for techies on CPU's specifically for Shogun 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IXd5ZKFOylA

    Just so people know exactly what DX11 vs DX10 is and what tesselation is look at this video. They are both short and show the geometry mesh and the level of detail change. Also DX11 has alot of other features btw.
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bkKtY2G3FbU
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=axMAtpYphLA&feature=related
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