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New to Shogun - Couple questions

SoltarosSoltaros Junior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 17
Hello,

I used to play Rome and Medieval Total War but am new to the Shogun series. Got a couple questions I hope the resident players here can answer.

1) Is there a good reason to start with Shogun 2 or can I go straight for the Fall of the Samurai campaign? (I think I like that time era a bit more)

2) How is the campaign map of the two? Both campaigns can be continued playing after you 'won'? Same map I assume? Any big differences?

3) I'm unable to find a list that has all the unit and clan details, like Medieval used to have very detailed .pdf's. (FotS) Are there any good sources you guys can help me out with?

Thanks a lot!
Post edited by Soltaros on

Comments

  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    Hello and welcome.

    1) Not really. They play very differently and the main campaign provides no knowledge that just playing the other campaign won't give you just as quickly. The only thing FotS doesn't have is a dedicated tutorial.

    2) FotS includes 10 extra regions at the northern and southern ends. Some provinces have different specialties (new ones have been added as well) and the roads are sometimes placed differently, but I doubt this will concern you if you're not used to one map or the other. You can keep playing for as long as you want.

    3) The encyclopedia should provide a decent amount of info. Otherwise there is the option of downloading the assembly kit and looking at the respective xml file(s). The latter is recommended if you care a lot about the base reload times different guns give you, even though this won't be very important in campaign as you don't have the same kind of upgrades that you do in avatar mode.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    Thanks Damadman,

    It's late now so I'll start tomorrow. Is there anything important I should be aware of? Are there any kind of mistakes that when made, cannot be corrected for example?
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    Dishonoring treaties will hurt diplomatic relations for a long time. This is remedied by the fact that half the country already likes you though. Also be really careful about attacking somebody, if they are allied to a clan you don't want as your enemy that is. The clans in this game are very peculiar about that honor thing.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited April 2013
    Soltaros wrote: »
    Hello,

    I used to play Rome and Medieval Total War but am new to the Shogun series. Got a couple questions I hope the resident players here can answer.

    1) Is there a good reason to start with Shogun 2 or can I go straight for the Fall of the Samurai campaign? (I think I like that time era a bit more)

    2) How is the campaign map of the two? Both campaigns can be continued playing after you 'won'? Same map I assume? Any big differences?

    3) I'm unable to find a list that has all the unit and clan details, like Medieval used to have very detailed .pdf's. (FotS) Are there any good sources you guys can help me out with?

    Thanks a lot!

    Welcome Soltaros!

    for #1) since you say you are a veteran of Rome and Medeval, I would most certainly recommend playing Shogun 2 by itself before Fall of the samurai, it should be an easier gameplay transition. The matchlocks in that campaign can help you prepare for the modern rifle-muskets of the 1860s in FOTS. I was great with FOTS from the start only because I had already logged about 200 hours in Napoleon total war, where many of the same principles still very much apply in terms of battlefield tactics.

    For #2) The shogun 2 and Rise of the samurai maps are the same. they cover 3 of the 4 main Japanese islands: Honshu (the largest), Shikoku, and Kyushu, as well as a couple smaller islands called Sado and Awajii.

    Fall of the samurai obviously stays in the Japanese islands, but there is the addition of southern portions of Hokkaido (the northern most main Japanese island), and 3 new islands off of Kyushu to the west. There is also the addition of direct trade with three Western powers: the British Empire, the French Republic, and the United States of America. You can obtain through trade missions Marines and Ironclads from any or all of them.

    Yes, as in all TW games, you are fully free to continue after you win or lose.

    for #3) with a few exceptions, there are few visual differences between clans (factions) other than colors and Insignias.

    With shogun 2, the clan differences are as follows:

    Religion: the 3 religions are Shinto Buddhism (essentially Japanese Buddhism from what I understand), Ikko, and Christianity.

    Clan traits: clans have their own bonuses with certain units, economics etc. for example: shimazu have katana bonuses, Chosokabe have bow bonuses, mori have naval bonuses. all of these inherent bonuses are readable when you select a clan for a new campaign.

    In fall of the samurai:

    Clan traits: same idea as above, just read them when you choose a new clan for campaign.

    Allegiance: the primary conflict in fall of the samurai is the Divine Emperor vs the Shogunate over who will rule japan. there are Pro Emperor and Pro Shogunate Clans to chose from, they are clearly labeled as such when you choose a clan. When realm divide occurs, you have the option to take the lead for your side (Imperial or Shogunate) or go independent and face off against everyone.

    Unique units: depending on allegiance, some units are available and some are not. EX: Kyoto Police are only available to imperial Clans whilst Shogitai are only available to Shogunate clans, and Republican infantry are only available if you become an independent republic at realm divide

    as said before, the encyclopedia is absolutely vital for you in your situation


    My advice for a starting faction would be ether Shimazu or Chosokabe in Shogun 2 basic (the Satsuma and Tosa in FOTS as trivia). They start in south western Kyushu and southern Shikoku respectively. This means they are out of the way of most threats initially.

    I also strongly advise playing all tutorials. Even a seasoned TW vet such as myself play the tutorials first and foremost with all new TW games, I even go back every now and then to refresh my memory on certain things.

    I obviously couldn't have covered as much as I would have liked, so please feel free to ask myself or any one of the veterans on here for any specific questions you may have about any aspects of Shogun 2/FOTS

    once again, Welcome aboard!
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    Thanks for the great post!

    As far as the unique units go, does that mean all clans have exactly the same ones and only your allegience gives you a few extra (and not even that unique)?

    That's certainly a bit different from what I'm used to with Medieval. :) Though I guess it makes sense since it's all taking place in a much smaller region of the world map.

    I have seen the encyclopedia for Shogun 2 but can't seem to find the exact details for FotS
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    Some unique units are allegiance bound while others are faction bound. Anything that has imperial or shogunate in its name is allegiance bound, as are shogitai and shinsengumi police force. Stuff like bear infantry, Tosa riflemen or anything with "force" in the name aside from shinsengumi police force is faction specific.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    Ok I got the game now and am delving into the encyclopedia. Yay :)

    It is a little confusing that they don't list which units are from which faction though.
    The imperial/shogunate is easy enough to understand. Is going independent also a good option reward-wise?

    And if it's not too much to ask, can you give me your opinion on which faction units (late game) are the best in their category?
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    Going republic is a challenge. Everybody will attack you, you will have to convert all of your population to the new allegiance and all shogunate/imperial agents and units you have will disappear. Basically don't do it until you feel confident in your abilities and play the campaign with that in mind. You will also get the worst guard cav unit of all.

    No faction specific units are mandatory. Tosas are the best skirmishers due to their fast reload. Bears and azure dragons are better than standard line infantry but inferior to the imp/shog inf. The most important units for the late game are the allegiance specific ones though, so as long as you're not playing as Tosa there's little to worry about here.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    I found this thread regarding faction units:
    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/36538-Unique-faction-units

    Is it accurate? It seems there are few to none differences between some factions and the only real difference are the percentage bonus stats like +economy and such. That's a little disappointing all clans are mostly alike. Are the differences bigger in Shogun 2 original campaign?
  • Imperial GuardImperial Guard Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 543
    edited April 2013
    In FOTS practically all clans have exactly the same units with minor exceptions and of course the units that are dependent to the clan allegiance. In S2 there is even smaller difference between different clans units. It's completely different from any other TW game but it's to be expected as it covers only short time frame and basically only 1 nation and culture.
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited April 2013
    Soltaros wrote: »
    Ok I got the game now and am delving into the encyclopedia. Yay :)

    It is a little confusing that they don't list which units are from which faction though.
    The imperial/shogunate is easy enough to understand. Is going independent also a good option reward-wise?

    And if it's not too much to ask, can you give me your opinion on which faction units (late game) are the best in their category?

    they aren't listed because most units are available to all factions. some have a faction name tied to them, others you may just have to read the description

    going republic is a very big challenge indeed, as everyone else goes to war with you. It's not a death sentence though, I've got an inactive campaign when I went republic in 1869 and im still in existence in 1874 (each turn is 2 weeks)

    there is no specific fall of the samurai section in the encyclopedia, it's just mixed in with the rest. For example, when you just go to the general units page, there should be 3 options: Shogun 2 units, Rise of the Samurai Units, and Fall of the Samurai Units
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    @Soltaros: Shinsengumi police and shogitai are available to all shogunate factions. Republican guard cav is missing is that post. Yugekitai are exclusive to the Jozai. Otherwise it all seems accurate to me.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    Yeah I've been going through all the units/clan lists and tutorials today. Will start my campaign tomorrow. I've settled on going with original Shogun 2 first.

    There seems to be more variety between the factions in the original campaign and it has more of a balance between the different unit types (where not just guns rule everything).

    I'll probably go with the Tokugawa or Hattori clan and use the Kisho ninja's a lot. They seem rather neat and allow for more tactical possibilities. For a more traditional army I'd go with the Uesugi with bow and warrior monks. Any thoughts on these units?

    Lastly, I've also been looking at the region map and which provinces have useful resources to train units in and such like a blacksmith.
    - What about (for example) iron? It says something about 6-25 ton of it. How does that work? How much do I need, and would I need multiple iron provinces if I want to upgrade everything in every city?
    - Can you acquire these needed resources also by trading them? And would that be just a one time thing or do you need a steady supply of it?
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited April 2013
    If you go with Tokugawa, I wish you luck, they are hard
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    Resources have to be owned or traded. When you build a building that requires access to a certain resource you need to have access at that very time, stockpiling is not possible. Once the building is under construction you don't need that resource anymore I think.

    Having more of any given resource basically means you make more money off of it, preferably by trading. If you don't have anybody to export it to you still make a smaller sum which is increased by having more of said resource. This is also the only thing owning multiple provinces with the same resource is good for, otherwise access alone in whatever quantity will do.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • Half_Life_ExpertHalf_Life_Expert Senior Member Oak Park, CA , USARegistered Users Posts: 4,686
    edited April 2013
    damadman is correct, you must have access to resources to build or recruit things that they require. For example, the Gatling gun in Fall of the samurai requires the "Iron" resource. Trade can get you access, but it is quite vulnerable as im sure you can imagine
    "we have officially entered into pre-whinning about our games."- Cogre

    I will always respect differing opinions on here, so long as they are presented maturely and in a civil manner

    "No Battleplan ever survives contact with the enemy"- Helmuth Von Moltke the Elder

    The WWI Thread: https://forums.totalwar.com/discussion/30914/why-a-world-war-i-themed-total-war/p1

    I'm skipping TW: Warhammer
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    Aah, makes sense now. Thanks guys!

    As far as the Tokugawa or Hattori go; are their Kisho ninja unit exactly the same? Because the game lists some different bonuses for the Tokugawa (like less upkeep) that the Hattori also seems to have without it listing specifically.
    And in some old (online) files the Hattori ninja seems to have more armor, yet in the ingame encyclopedia they are now the same.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    I think their stats are the same. I can't comment on the upkeep. Hattori units in general are more expensive though.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    Yeah that's the main reason I was thinking about Tokugawa since some of their basic units are cheaper and I don't need to place them wherever I want. Just the ninja's.

    By the way, I'm having a bit of trouble with the camera controls. Is there a way to remap the middle mouse button/freelook camera setting? It seems to me that option is missing and can only be replaced with separate buttons for each axis which is a bit silly.
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    Ok the only way I've found a way to do so it with a macro program that just tells your PC that button X = something else. Seems to work fine now.

    I was wondering about this as well.. does anyone know if you upgrade an archery dojo all the way to legendary status (kyodo school), do you get the "+10% accuracy for all bow units" also to apply to your cavalry bow units?

    Oh and what is the maximum amount of buildings you can make inside 1 province? I'm not used to this feature yet since in Rome/Medieval you could just upgrade a town to the fullest eventually :)

    Edit: is there a change where smiths don't apply to cavalry anymore? There seem to be some conflicting (old) posts and the ingame descriptions
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    I think it should apply to missile cav as well.

    Each castle upgrade gives you another slot up to a total of 5 slots. For the "castle" level you'll need iron. For the citadel you'll need epic architecture.

    Smiths always apply to all units.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    5 slots seems reasonable. :) Just makes it more specialized between economy and military I guess.
    Smiths always apply to all units.
    Hhmm are you 100% sure? It says specifically that it applies to Warrior monks/Kisho Ninjas/Siege Weapons/Samurai & Ashigaru.

    None of these categories include the Takeda Fire Cavalry or Takeda Bow Cavalry it seems.
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    Woops, sorry, you'll need stone, not iron for the 4th level castle upgrade.

    Yes I am. I know cav is always affected and I'm sure the same goes even for artillery (I did get nicely improved fire rockets and parrot guns that way). What is left? Onna-bushi? You can't recruit those. :P

    What sucks about fire cav is that you have to have the +5 charge building in your province, meaning you can't get the +2 attack one instead, meaning that the max attack of fire cav in campaign is lower than that of Takeda yari cav.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    Yeah the Fire cav doesn't seem leaps better or anything but I like the extra armor and use them for max charge mostly anyway.

    It also helps they don't need a blacksmith province since my meatshields (Ashigaru/Naginata samurai) will be using the armourer for that.
    The other two types will be:
    - 1 Craftwork province, stables, archery dojo and armor encampment for my Takeda Bow Cavalry
    - 1 Warhose province, stables, proving grounds, and eventually a legendary kenjutsu school for the Takeda Fire Cavalry.

    That should make them the best of their line I think, and hopefully having mostly those 3 unit types will be enough to secure victory.

    PS: How many missions can you hold maximum? Is there benefit in cancelling a mission that you know won't complete (or anytime soon..)?
  • damadman228damadman228 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,437
    edited April 2013
    I never tried messing with my missions, so I don't know. Sorry about that. I'm under the impression that you can only have 1 active at any given time, so if that was true it would make sense to cancel one and hope for a better one, but I'm by no means certain about this.
    This might be helpful for those still playing S2 MP:
    http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=444087

    Also check out this awesome channel:
    https://www.youtube.com/user/milkandcookiesTW
  • SoltarosSoltaros Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 17
    edited April 2013
    Thanks for all your help Damadman. Some questions aren't specific RotF anymore (as I play vanilla first now) but I don't want to create another new thread just but my silly questions. :)

    I was wondering about accuracy. I currently have a few units with above 100 rating.

    I believe it still benefits them as it is not a percentage to hit stat but a modifier of a base hit stat. However, what exactly constitutes as a miss? Can a miss arrow still kill a random troop if it happens to be in the path of that "missing arrow"? Or will an arrow that fail the accuracy check never do any damage.

    I'm asking because on my next playthrough I might play with a mostly Chosokabe Daikyu samurai archer army (which already have a high accuracy) and am wondering if +20 accuracy is really the best upgrade (over +3 armor) overall.
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