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Review from an Anonymous Developer [CA response]

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  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaPosts: 4,784Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    I like the OP post but I disagree with him about the modders being the future of the game. For TW games I never found the mods the best way to improve them. I would say that is CA duty and job to make the game perfect. They made it they are the only one capable of pulling out the best from it.

    Unfortunatly, CA cannot stay on the game for a extended period of time and will have to move onto other projects. So, the OP is correct that the modders are the best bet that the future of this game has; hopefully CA will implement Steam Workshop into Rome 2.
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  • scfs123scfs123 Senior Member Posts: 974Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    At least we know the DLC Campaigns are gonna be amazing. I barely played shogun 2 vanilla, but fall of the samurai...omaiiiiiiiiiiiii so many hours xD and once co-op gets going...ehehehehe.

    Legendary campaign is working pretty well, sad that the other difficulties aren't but alas.
  • cerberus_truthercerberus_truther Junior Member Posts: 29Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Anonymous Developer , thank you for your balanced and well written review. I have played more than a few Total War games over the past 8 years. These games include Rome 1, Medieval 2, Napoleon , Empire Total War and Shogun 2. I am by no means a veteran of the series but I enjoyed the following games (and continue to enjoy them) for their tactical and strategic depth, historical background and because they are very fun to play.

    Like many of my fellow posters I was very excited at the announcement of Rome 2. I pre-ordered the game on Steam and stayed up till 3:00 am EST to play it on release. I was all on board the hype train for what promised to be the most well funded and largest Total War game to date. Now that a few days have passed and the initial hype /excitement has worn off, I feel a certain lack of satisfaction that I have had previous Total War titles. Although the campaign map is beautiful and I find the diplomacy to be an innovative addition, it does appear some key aspects of the game have been dumbed down for a more casual player.

    I will continue to play my Egyptian campaign but I hope that CA move to patch these gameplay issues.

    There are many other well written reviews of the game here in this forum, however I am afraid that CA will not read them and won't take action. I hope they do though.
  • madmariomadmario Senior Member Posts: 115Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Hogiewan wrote: »
    Big publishers are always the death of any new media. Once it becomes a purely commercial enterprise, products become lacklustre and marketing budgets double.

    Publishers have no love of great games they take a purely mercenary outlook. The issue is they are the only ones with the money to fund the scale of game we want to play, so any developer has to dance to their tune.

    In respect to Rome 2, I honestly believe CA did their best with the budget and time they had. We need to face facts that they're only the Director of the game, and no matter how talented a Director is, producers have final say on deadlines and budget. You could be the greatest game developer of all time and still make bad games if they're rushed out the door.

    Ever see a terrible movie and then hear the Director's cut was awesome? Same principle :(

    I only disagree that publishers have no love for the games they make. Having a friend who is a VG producer, they often do. By law, corporate officers have to put stockholder interests first. There's room for judgment, yes, but there are limits on that judgment and who wants to get sued. So a small enterprise can take risks a large one cannot--corporate officers risk being sued themselves.

    So the story in my view is that it's the nature of the beast and unfortunate timing & dealmaking that couldn't be course-corrected. But this is also a competitive advantage independent producers/developers have. Cf. Paradox.
    "[A]ges of siege warfare culminated in the use of torches. It is simply not plausible." Garbarsardar
  • FilthyFilthy Senior Member Posts: 247Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Thank you OP for a very well thought out and written review.

    I'm confident that our response as a community to this poorly thought out game will ruffle some feathers and hopefully get some much needed patching/changes done.
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  • BadvocBadvoc Junior Member Posts: 19Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    markorply wrote: »
    I was talking about the threads op..not this...mainly the fact his thread remains while he is not a dev

    Please stop. You made your point, others disagreed. This thread deserves to be free of such pedantic back and forth over insignificant minor points.

    The OP's message is a good one and criticism is not always wrong. It's how the market for a product can show it's dissatisfaction and make the producer take notice.
  • Emperor DomitianusEmperor Domitianus Senior Member Posts: 1,243Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    Unfortunatly, CA cannot stay on the game for a extended period of time and will have to move onto other projects. So, the OP is correct that the modders are the best bet that the future of this game has; hopefully CA will implement Steam Workshop into Rome 2.

    Yes you are right. However I hope they could tweak the game before moving on. The next TW game will be the son of the game and the legacy will contain every bit of it.
    I like Steam workshop more thant the usual forums.

    scfs123 wrote: »
    At least we know the DLC Campaigns are gonna be amazing. I barely played shogun 2 vanilla, but fall of the samurai...omaiiiiiiiiiiiii so many hours xD and once co-op gets going...ehehehehe.

    Legendary campaign is working pretty well, sad that the other difficulties aren't but alas.

    I agree with you. I am confident in their future add-ons
  • HogiewanHogiewan Senior Member Posts: 150Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    Unfortunatly, CA cannot stay on the game for a extended period of time and will have to move onto other projects. So, the OP is correct that the modders are the best bet that the future of this game has; hopefully CA will implement Steam Workshop into Rome 2.

    Why can't they though? Cause they're busy thinking up the next game they're going to half finish and then charge me 60 sheets for? The only way to stop them doing this over and over is to not buy their products.

    Empire was such a nightmare at launch I didn't buy NTW at all, and held off on Shogun 2. The only reason I pre-ordered this one was nostalgia for the first game - a mistake I won't repeat.

    In the interest of fairness I should point out that ETW at present is one of the best TW games to date and the after release fixes were the only reason I trusted CA enough to buy Shogun 2!
  • ArdeptArdept Junior Member Posts: 10Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    A well written post from the OP, and while i appreciate the points you make there is one thing i find myself in disagreement with. The assumption that the game was not tested, i think it was, i think they were well aware of the condition of the game right up to the moment it was released.

    Why do i think this, because you only have to have or two people turn the game on and select Prologue or Campaign and play a battle or two to start noticing problems, if you play more than a few turns in the Campaign you certainly see how things are going, or not in the case of the AI.

    The graphical glitches, CTD's etc i can understand, however the Prologue took me two attempts to finish, once because when i captured the city it didn't move to a cut scene, the game just continued, and when i moved to take the last Gaul city the AI attacked the main story city and the screen moved to the battle options but wouldn't allow me to select any so it had to be abandoned, the second time i was careful to take all cities before the story city and to block or kill any stack outside.

    On the Campaign games, well there are pages of posts about that, i doubt you would need to have put very many hours into testing to see how this game is playing and the faction page, really, what is the point of that aside from picking from an option or two when some cow or sheep should be sacrificed. How many battles do you need to fight to notice how fast it is, or that units sit there being attacked while the whole force remains stationary?

    So i do think they did some testing and they knew what we were getting because you must have never seen the game at all not to see some of the problems that have been released. Which leaves us with either they knew it was horrible but were trying to get it finished (one reason for such a fast patch perhaps) but either didn't have time/didn't know how, or they thought this was gold and we would love it, in which case they truly have no idea and fixing it will never happen.

    I was hesitant to buy this after recent releases, but it was Rome, it is as poor as i worried it might be, so i guess let that be a lesson to me.
  • madmariomadmario Senior Member Posts: 115Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Hogiewan wrote: »
    Why can't they though?

    Because people eat & pay rent.
    "[A]ges of siege warfare culminated in the use of torches. It is simply not plausible." Garbarsardar
  • markorplymarkorply Senior Member Posts: 733Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Badvoc wrote: »
    Please stop. You made your point, others disagreed. This thread deserves to be free of such pedantic back and forth over insignificant minor points.

    The OP's message is a good one and criticism is not always wrong. It's how the market for a product can show it's dissatisfaction and make the producer take notice.
    oh yes, let's return to praising the OP, infact all who disagree should be blocked too and lets agree CA are totally allowing this thread to float because he is an anon dev!
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  • DalamarthDalamarth Senior Member Posts: 202Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Great post. I worked as a tester in the video-game industry. I made a "manage your expectations" thread to help people understand what aspects of the game are fixable with the patches we're likely to get, and what isn't.


    http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/80049-What-can-and-cannot-be-fixed.
  • HogiewanHogiewan Senior Member Posts: 150Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Because people eat & pay rent.

    If the game was a bust you might have a point. But im fairly sure they'll make enough money from the preorders alone to fund the fixes necessary. You're painting greed as necessity. Even if it was necessity, if I sold you an item from a shop that was sub standard, how badly I need the money does not alleviate my obligation to make amends.
  • madmariomadmario Senior Member Posts: 115Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Hogiewan wrote: »
    If the game was a bust you might have a point. But im fairly sure they'll make enough money from the preorders alone to fund the fixes necessary. You're painting greed as necessity. Even if it was necessity, if I sold you an item from a shop that was sub standard, how badly I need the money does not alleviate my obligation to make amends.

    "Greed"--profitability--is a necessity. Legally. If Sega execs don't privilege and prioritize the interests of stockholders, they risk a derivative suit in the US--and then there is the total mess of international law on these things. They will make a lot of money, yes, and they have to pay many people, including stockholders. They have to make a good showing for the tremendous investment of capital made. I imagine CA (and Sega) can't just up and hold off on other stuff. Projects this large are planned years in advance, and have tremendous budgets and tremendous expenses. I imagine a smaller company on a smaller project could act more nimbly in response to unforeseen problems or slowdowns. I'm going to guess that this is a bitter pill to swallow for many.
    "[A]ges of siege warfare culminated in the use of torches. It is simply not plausible." Garbarsardar
  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Posts: 1,772Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    markorply wrote: »
    I was talking about the threads op..not this...mainly the fact his thread remains while he is not a dev

    Just stop... no one cares, all right... done, enough, no more... some will take his word, some will not... it matters not, it's his free will to sell us on this prospect, just like it's your free will not to believe it. You're just derailing an important well thought out post. For pretty much no reason. Remember when CA employees got all whiny about Paradox employees calling them out on the AI in Empire.... yea there's no need to create that situation.
  • CloverClover Senior Member Posts: 4,964Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Hogiewan wrote: »
    Why can't they though? Cause they're busy thinking up the next game they're going to half finish and then charge me 60 sheets for? The only way to stop them doing this over and over is to not buy their products.

    Empire was such a nightmare at launch I didn't buy NTW at all, and held off on Shogun 2. The only reason I pre-ordered this one was nostalgia for the first game - a mistake I won't repeat.

    In the interest of fairness I should point out that ETW at present is one of the best TW games to date and the after release fixes were the only reason I trusted CA enough to buy Shogun 2!

    Because it costs money. Every day CA works to fix the game costs, assuming $30/hr for a team of 50 working 10 hours a day each, 15,000 dollars a day in wages. This is just a piece of the actual cost though. It's expensive.
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  • TruthTruth Senior Member Posts: 415Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    I doubt this post with be seen, and since this forum doesn't feature a notification system, conversations between members is quite hard and thus discussing this further will be difficult, so sometimes I question why I bother, however...

    I would just like to point out that, personally, I like that cities are limited in the number of buildings they can have. I feel that makes your choices more meaningful. In Rome I and Medieval II every city would have everything. They'd be self-sufficient, and money-making, army-pumping-outing (definitely a word) factories. They were boring, had no difference or flavor between them, and lacked all strategy and city-management. It also gives somewhat more replayability. So I personally like that they created building slots in Empire and Rome II, etc.

    Everything else I agree with, except the demo idea. Demos are not really required to test a game. Internal and external testing is.
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  • RumblefishRumblefish Senior Member Posts: 419Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Anon asked what Darth was up to now - http://www.ultimategeneral.com/

    As for whether CA will do the decent thing and drastically overhaul the game, just remember they are "very pleased with the response to Rome 2" - nuff said
    This just might be the best thing that's happened to the TW series - http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?680834-Ancient-Empires-Attila-202BC-Project-Outline
  • theedge634theedge634 Senior Member Posts: 1,772Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Rumblefish wrote: »
    Anon asked what Darth was up to now - http://www.ultimategeneral.com/

    As for whether CA will do the decent thing and drastically overhaul the game, just remember they are "very pleased with the response to Rome 2" - nuff said

    Still can't wait for Darth's game that screen shot looks wonderful
  • madmariomadmario Senior Member Posts: 115Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Clover wrote: »
    Because it costs money. Every day CA works to fix the game costs, assuming $30/hr for a team of 50 working 10 hours a day each, 15,000 dollars a day in wages. This is just a piece of the actual cost though. It's expensive.

    Plus overhead--rent, phones, computers, health insurance, people to answer phones, people to fix computers, people to explain the health insurance, people to issue payroll checks, people to count the money and pay the taxes, people to manage human resources, lawyers to write the contracts and defend lawsuits, &c. Every day on one project is a day not advancing another one, and someone(s) invested money for an agreed thing, not a thing +extra $Ms surprise. Unfortunate but--reality.
    "[A]ges of siege warfare culminated in the use of torches. It is simply not plausible." Garbarsardar
  • LusiadLusiad Member Posts: 31Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Great post and agree with OP in most aspects,my thinking is that there may be a culture at CA of far to many people "patting each other on the back" far too often where criticism was probably needed,and ideas that broke what TW fans loved so much in the game that were implemented were allowed to flourish instead,my goodness,was there anyone in the dev team who saw what was happening with the damaging changes but were too worried that they were not being part of the "team" atmosphere because they werent towing the conventional line of change and simplicity,theres an old saying that goes "if it aint broke,dont try an fix it"
  • EtheralBlazeEtheralBlaze Member Posts: 69Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Exactly , CA`s performance wasnt good and the thing that **** me off is that they lied and skipped the gameplay in the earlier gameplay videos. What a shame for a big crew/publisher that 1 guy or maybe a very little group will fix this game. Next game will be played as cracked version :). Maybe i buy it later then its fixed for half of the price , but who knows.
  • black-black- Senior Member Posts: 279Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    As a programmer myself, I can tell you there would be no bugs if they had ONE dedicated AI programmer sitting there the last 2 years. Even if they had paid a STUDENT with zero knowledge in AI programming, he could have learned it and made it MUCH better - or at least do something usefull!

    If they had one, let him/her clean the cellar and PCs and don't give him/her a keyboard again.
    Give us tools/access to recode AI, I promise you, the results of 2 weeks will make this game work.
  • AfricanWishboneAfricanWishbone Senior Member Posts: 127Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Fantastic review. I hope CA reads this. You sir hit the nail on the head!
  • Commander NimmoCommander Nimmo Member Posts: 67Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Nice post, and adds credibility to the complaints that a large number have with the game.

    Sounds like someone from Eugen Systems to me, 50 employees compared to CAs 300, recently released Wargame: AirLand battle (great game). They also threw in beta access if you pre-ordered it (which I did as I loved the first game), and the game itself was improved, more factions added and air combat was added. That's a developer who knows what they're doing.
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  • AfricanWishboneAfricanWishbone Senior Member Posts: 127Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Remember Jack's Macedon Playthrough? He didn't use video footage but instead screen shots. It seemed odd at the time but now I know why. CA new the game was so buggy they couldn't show real gameplay even up to release, but instead showed us carefully picked screenshots...
  • Ace_BlazerAce_Blazer Senior Member Toronto, CanadaPosts: 5,918Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    AnnonDev wrote: »
    Thank you, have you noticed that we are 8 pages in and so far there haven't been any fanboys here...perhaps the facts put in the way I have has driven them away.

    Also notice that this hasn't been moved yet, a good sign from CA so far.

    A post from Trish would be a helpful sign.
    I appreciate the effort put into the substantial OP, and the moderating team is keeping an eye on it to make sure no flaming or useless troll posts plague the thread unlike many we've had to move; however, we do also ask that people please refrain from the more paranoid conspiracy type posts. Thank you.
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  • markorplymarkorply Senior Member Posts: 733Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Ace Blazer wrote: »
    I appreciate the effort put into the substantial OP, and the moderating team is keeping an eye on it to make sure no flaming or useless troll posts plague the thread unlike many we've had to move; however, we do also ask that people please refrain from the more paranoid conspiracy type posts. Thank you.
    this thread is like politics
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  • vizzovizzo Senior Member Posts: 527Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Agree with the entire post.
  • Artyom_CatArtyom_Cat Senior Member Posts: 109Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    I could never agree more with this post. It's just superb!
This discussion has been closed.