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Total War: Rome 2 - Overpowered Multiplayer Builds

ThePrussianPrinceThePrussianPrince Senior MemberPosts: 295Registered Users
edited September 2013 in Total War Eras - Multiplayer

What do you think about the builds showcased in the video? Do you think they're overpowered, or are you fine with them? Personally, I believe something needs to be changed. From what I've heard about the next patch, things might be better though, but I doubt that would be the only change necessary.

Heavy infantry seems to be required in this game, and they are just so hard to deal with when using cavalry. It seems like just bringing a spam of them would guarantee at least 80-90% win ratio (until more people start using them), since they're so easy to use and so hard to counter.
Post edited by ThePrussianPrince on
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Comments

  • PiohrunPiohrun Member Posts: 70Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    I think that the best way to deal with these kind of builds would be to increase dramatically cost of every unit above 4 (of the same unit of course). And on top of that buff other factions.
  • prehusseinprehussein Senior Member Posts: 576Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Should do something about all elite units. If system gives only soft caps on same unit types, then a faction which have various elite melee inf will prevail anyway.
  • PiohrunPiohrun Member Posts: 70Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Well, I agree, but what I am proposing is just a quick fix for spartan pike walls. Balancing the whole system is necessary but can take a lot of time.
  • KimmyKimmy Member Posts: 54Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Yeah. Pikes are way too killy. They should be a tough-skinned, (relatively) toothless delaying unit, the anvil. Right now it's a hammer with ICBM's strapped to the side.

    Also sick of seeing all-elite armies. Praetorians don't seem very epic if there's armies full of them. As a Suebi player I've been trying to find ways to utilize light-medium infantry(e.g. Spear Brothers) as delayers, but they just disintegrate in seconds. Hell I tried using Sword Masters(toughest unit Suebi has) to pin down Foot Companions while flanking with berserkers, but the Swordmaster-anvil routs within 10-15 seconds. Run-through is the only thing that seems to work, but it feels exploity.

    So yeah, I'd love to see big armies of medium inf, with a few elites, and cav+ranged added as sauce.
    Also pikemen being anvils rather than Space Marines. Sadly I haven't a clue how to fix these things. A soft cap through price is an idea I guess, but some factions have like 3 different Pike types. Maybe when overall kill-speeds are toned down, medium inf might be able to delay for longer?

    Thanks for the effort Prussianprince. I'm curious if you know a way to make Suebi work in current MP? Their Longbows(8 AP!) have potential if anything..
  • ThePrussianPrinceThePrussianPrince Senior Member Posts: 295Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Me and some of my friends have done tests, not with Suebi (at least not me), but with other factions and it's almost impossible to win if the spammer doesn't make a mistake. It's just such a joke that in 2v2 you can cover the whole map from one side to the other with 2 pike armies, for example.

    I don't know what to do yet against those spams, sorry. :/

    As for making Suebi work, well... You can make anything work on MM because unfortunately, people aren't that great. It's just that when you get to the competitive side of things, these things start mattering. And there you use the most efficient and easy way to win, which is currently spamming heavy inf.
  • HarbaHarba Senior Member Posts: 256Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Kimmy.

    I lost you at "to pint down Foot Companions while flanking with berserkers".. You are doing it wrong if you go frontal against pikes, you deserve to die. Never go full frontal against pike phalanx. Use your Suebi mobility and those Suebi Longbow Hunters to weaken his Foot companions, make him move and make mistakes

    But I totally agree with you in all elite armies, I think the elites are the most broken thing in the game. They cost way too little for their prowess.

    And regarding the video, spartan pikemen is the most broken unit in the game. 50 hp pike unit with decent stats for 510 is just OP. They should cost something close to 800.
    Clan GERUDO
    www.clangerudo.net
  • KimmyKimmy Member Posts: 54Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Me and some of my friends have done tests, not with Suebi (at least not me), but with other factions and it's almost impossible to win if the spammer doesn't make a mistake. It's just such a joke that in 2v2 you can cover the whole map from one side to the other with 2 pike armies, for example.

    I don't know what to do yet against those spams, sorry. :/

    As for making Suebi work, well... You can make anything work on MM because unfortunately, people aren't that great. It's just that when you get to the competitive side of things, these things start mattering. And there you use the most efficient and easy way to win, which is currently spamming heavy inf.

    Thanks for the input! Yeah I watched the Flash tournament on Zaripts' stream, some builds were a bit of a joke(oh gosh that pikebox..). Oh well, we'll find a counter some day. Or a patch. :)
    Harba wrote: »
    I lost you at "to pint down Foot Companions while flanking with berserkers".. You are doing it wrong if you go frontal against pikes, you deserve to die.

    Mhm I completely understood that many would die, just not this fast. The idea behind it was that if you try to run around with berzerkers while not engaging the pikes, the pikes can constantly reposition. If they're occupied in combat they can't wheel around. The Swordmasters didn't have to win, they just had to occupy. Wanted to avoid a run-around-the-repositioning-pike benny hill theme scenario. Oh well. Catch my drift?
  • PiohrunPiohrun Member Posts: 70Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    I do, but it's clearly not a valid strategy for a moment.
  • ThePrussianPrinceThePrussianPrince Senior Member Posts: 295Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Actually, while writing this I've done some tests as Arverni with oathsworn spam, while my opponent (zaript) used Suebi, and tried skirmishing me out and such. Didn't work for him it seems, but we're still testing. :) I'll edit this post in case we find something worthwhile against oathsworns.
  • HarbaHarba Senior Member Posts: 256Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Kimmy, I know, but pikes are not nearly as mobile as swords are. You can spin your enemy around while using your missiles to shoot him in the back and flanks. You need more missiles. And don't move as a big blog, divide your army, you can force him into a pike box with movement and then shower him down with missiles.

    I'm afraid that if they nerf pikewalls, sword spams will become even more powerful, as if they are not powerful enough now.
    Clan GERUDO
    www.clangerudo.net
  • DU1WELDU1WEL Member Posts: 36Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Guys seriously if you stop making peasant armies by trying to "prove" you are more skillful & can kill these elites with peasants and just build regular armies with many elites yourselves this wouldn't be a problem...
    AUT VIAM INVENIAM AUT FACIAM

    DUX EX LEGIONIS VII & XIV
  • LogliuLogliu Junior Member Posts: 28Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    I'm curious, have you tried out switching 2 units in that Egyptian group for war elephants and tried that vs the spartan pike spam? In my single player experience pikes need to be rather thick when encountering elephants else the elephant will trample right through killing an immense amount. If the elephants get bogged down in too many enemies they do a lot worse but are still decent in my experiences. Biggest problem is that they go from fresh->exhausted very quickly in prolonged combat somehow, doesn't seem to be tied to any ability and there is no inbetween state for them.
  • King_LorenzoKing_Lorenzo Junior Member Posts: 10Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    This is a pretty major balance issue atm, heavy infantry has no real counter atm. What I've noticed is there is no advntage to holding thick ranks, now for pike units this just makes no sense. Surely more pranks means more pikes per square metre, but in the game this doesnt count for much. Rome I used to have a good mechanic where pikes in long lines would just die and be weak, while in thick ranks they could outmatch other infantry. All we're seeing atm is long thin lines of heavy infantry or pikes charging forward and simply envenveloping more conventional (and logical) deployments (reserve lines etc).
  • KimmyKimmy Member Posts: 54Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Harba wrote: »
    Kimmy, I know, but pikes are not nearly as mobile as swords are. You can spin your enemy around while using your missiles to shoot him in the back and flanks. You need more missiles.

    Thank you kindly, I'll keep practicing on that and bring more missiles(atm I usually go 4-5 Longbow Hunters).
    DU1WEL wrote: »
    Guys seriously if you stop making peasant armies by trying to "prove" you are more skillful & can kill these elites with peasants and just build regular armies with many elites yourselves this wouldn't be a problem...

    There's something between a peasant and a Praetorian Guard you know? Like a standard Legionairy Cohort.
    Perhaps you're fine with people using only 10% of the available unit types, but others find that a bit dull.
  • CinnamonCinnamon Member Posts: 49Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    So health goes

    30 light
    35 regular
    40 elite
    50 spartan regular

    What?

    It seemed that in every DLC that CA got insecure or overenthusiastic and made some unit or other in the DLC a must have. Not totally necessary but they were often one per army at least.

    Not sure if hoplites were intended to be the counter to long pikes in a way. Hoplites have high armour which suggests that they were intended to be able to get past the pointy end of the pikes and engage with a close range stat advantage. But only working with spartans because they can survive well enough to do a pull through suggests also that hoplites are not working well enough if so.

    The ability to engage from the side is a good idea but in this game so far there is not the right penalty to mobility for pike phalanx. That's not to say it isn't there but famously the formation was only able to move forward when in formation. It could not quickly enter or leave formation or wheel around in formation.

    At least it appears to me that CA intended for a rps balance with Hellenic infantry units that goes sword>hoplite>pike>sword.
  • prehusseinprehussein Senior Member Posts: 576Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Well, actually, not only spartans but also any elite units can hug foot companions pikes by force moving order. If pikes' rank is not enough, almost any melee elites(whether they are sword unit or greek hoplites) can penetrate pikes' rank. Even though pikes' rank is somewhat deep and failed to penetrate, just hug them then elites melee can win elite pikes at the last(but yes it's very costly). With quite simple micro, you can do this.
    But you need top elite unit doing so. Any units below 900$ will just meltdown doing so. I think there's some hidden factors in elite melee units or stats are not direct proportion of power.
  • LKHEROLKHERO Member Posts: 296Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Not sure if any of you realize, but other faction's elite pikes **** on Spartan regular pikes on a biblical scale.
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  • KimmyKimmy Member Posts: 54Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    prehussein wrote: »
    Even though pikes' rank is somewhat deep and failed to penetrate, just hug them then elites melee can win elite pikes at the last(but yes it's very costly). With quite simple micro, you can do this.

    Yeah, sadly players with half a brain have troops behind their pikemen which'll lay a giant doodoo on your damaged pull-through unit.
  • prehusseinprehussein Senior Member Posts: 576Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    No you don't understand. You are not that badly hurted by performing push through if you have elite melee units. If you can't believe, just try it. If they have thick colum, just hug them that's enough to win after about 1 or 2 minutes of long combat and heavy casualties for both. And if pikes have second line, you even don't have to push through. Just flank them. Top tier elite units have simillar price, so if pikes have second line, that means you have extra units to flank them. If you flank pikes with elite melee, then you can break them much easily.
  • TinkerbellTinkerbell Member Posts: 33Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    I can't see how a game that had this time spent on it can be so wide of the mark. The maps make the unit dominance worse.
  • JoCoolJoCool Senior Member Posts: 594Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Disclaimer: No ad hominem intended. I am critizising what happens in the video and on the boards.

    The OP is wrong. These builds can easily be countered with better setups that have ranged, melee and cav. Unfortunately many people will copy his builds since he's doing YT videos. Seems he is only fighting beginners. He should battle some of the bigger names like people from WoC or other good clans.
    Also, many new TW sheep will cry for a nerf, because of a few propagandizing about imbalances. Also, because they have no idea how to play better yet.

    I agree to you that for noobs, these builds are good. If all a player can do is march in a line and attack straight on, and all his opponent can do is the same, then the one with the inf spam build will win.

    But if one of those knows what he's doing, a balanced build may turn out much much better. You may be surprised.
  • KimmyKimmy Member Posts: 54Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    That's exactly the thing JoCool, it appears that these kind of builds are popular among the bigger names/better players. You'll see stuff like 2-3 cav+1 big onager+rest pikemen builds.

    However if you have a few youtube movies of top players beating other top players using aforementioned builds with balanced ones, I'd love to see it. Always open to learning new things! Wish replays worked properly, then we could have something like gamereplays.org is to CoH2. :)
  • ThePrussianPrinceThePrussianPrince Senior Member Posts: 295Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    JoCool wrote: »
    Disclaimer: No ad hominem intended. I am critizising what happens in the video and on the boards.

    The OP is wrong. These builds can easily be countered with better setups that have ranged, melee and cav. Unfortunately many people will copy his builds since he's doing YT videos. Seems he is only fighting beginners. He should battle some of the bigger names like people from WoC or other good clans.
    Also, many new TW sheep will cry for a nerf, because of a few propagandizing about imbalances. Also, because they have no idea how to play better yet.

    I agree to you that for noobs, these builds are good. If all a player can do is march in a line and attack straight on, and all his opponent can do is the same, then the one with the inf spam build will win.

    But if one of those knows what he's doing, a balanced build may turn out much much better. You may be surprised.

    Actually, I have only lost twice in 1v1 MM, and it's been to oathsworn spams. :) Everybody who went with a balanced build lost to this. I have tested with zaript as well, and he went with "ranged, melee and cav" like 20-30 times in a row against my oathsworn spam, and he didn't win once. Not once.

    I have played against some of the top players, previous top Shogun 2 players as well. And it's funny that you mention WoC, because coreofexistenz is one of their members and he streams and spams as well and it works very well for him.

    It still technically is beatable, but it requires an insane amount of skill and a little luck.
  • LeninadeLeninade Member Posts: 52Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Played one of the Praetorian spammers yesterday that used this exact build except for lack of gladiators as Carthage. We had equal numbers of infantry, as I had taken Libyan infantry with three cav, war elephants, and peltasts. My strategy was to leave my left flank high and dry and hope they survived long enough for me to roll his left flank with a mix of cav and my elephants. Much to my surprise however not only were my Libyans not dying, they were actually winning that fight. Can anyone else confirm whether this was just a fluke?
  • lolpierandomlolpierandom Junior Member Posts: 27Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Logliu wrote: »
    I'm curious, have you tried out switching 2 units in that Egyptian group for war elephants and tried that vs the spartan pike spam? In my single player experience pikes need to be rather thick when encountering elephants else the elephant will trample right through killing an immense amount. If the elephants get bogged down in too many enemies they do a lot worse but are still decent in my experiences. Biggest problem is that they go from fresh->exhausted very quickly in prolonged combat somehow, doesn't seem to be tied to any ability and there is no inbetween state for them.

    You sure about that? From my experience I've been lucky to get elephants to pay out for how much they cost. They don't get much kills, even on backcharges with enough time to accelerate fully, and putting them into a pike unit head on? Maybe if it's one or one and a half deep, but anything beyond that and I'm 99% sure they'd get poked to death very quickly.
  • LKHEROLKHERO Member Posts: 296Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Leninade wrote: »
    Played one of the Praetorian spammers yesterday that used this exact build except for lack of gladiators as Carthage. We had equal numbers of infantry, as I had taken Libyan infantry with three cav, war elephants, and peltasts. My strategy was to leave my left flank high and dry and hope they survived long enough for me to roll his left flank with a mix of cav and my elephants. Much to my surprise however not only were my Libyans not dying, they were actually winning that fight. Can anyone else confirm whether this was just a fluke?

    @OP and Leninade

    You do realize that elite pikes destroy heavy infantry like Oathsworn/PGuard/RPelts right?

    It's not even close. I can't see how Oathsworn spam is considered OP.
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  • ThePrussianPrinceThePrussianPrince Senior Member Posts: 295Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    LKHERO wrote: »
    @OP and Leninade

    You do realize that elite pikes destroy heavy infantry like Oathsworn/PGuard/RPelts right?

    It's not even close. I can't see how Oathsworn spam is considered OP.

    Because you can pull through the pike unit and hit them from behind, losing only a few men. And they are OP against factions without any pike units anyway.
  • QuixoticQuixotic Junior Member Posts: 3Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Even handing the reins of these spammy builds to hard AI is a challenge and that's with outmaneuvering and flanking. I've been trying to find a counter including incorporating the good armor penetration melee units like Hillmen and Karian Axemen, but they quickly get routed even when flanking.
  • LeninadeLeninade Member Posts: 52Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Libyan infantry are the same as manipular legionaires, read the post completely if you're going to respond to me. I wasn't talking about African Pikemen. Those are a different unit entirely.
  • LKHEROLKHERO Member Posts: 296Registered Users
    edited September 2013
    Because you can pull through the pike unit and hit them from behind, losing only a few men. And they are OP against factions without any pike units anyway.

    Got a video to share of this claim? I've labbed this several times. "Pulling through the unit" results in horrible, unacceptable losses.
    Competitive Total War: Warhammer MP
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