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why is there no give/demand region diplomacy option?

zeretexzeretex Senior MemberPosts: 220Registered Users
edited March 2011 in Total War: Shogun 2
Since the release of the demo i thought that it was only the tut lacking the give/demand region's options but when i looked on a random screen shot from jack's shimazu campaign diary ( http://img827.imageshack.us/f/shimazu1c.jpg/ ) i saw that it wasn't on the full game diplomacy screen either.

Has CA said anything about why they decided to not include this?

even though it barley happend at all it did happen or rare occasions, which is why they should make the AI rarley agree to such and offer instead of removing this deplomacy option.

also they should fix the AI spamming you with " give region x " instead of removing the diplomacy option

also:
TWC Poll
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=431474


thanks,
-zeretex
Post edited by zeretex on
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Comments

  • Crazy SteveCrazy Steve Senior Member Posts: 1,443Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    I heard two reasons, either it is because it's the demo or because it's because in feudal Japanese they didn't swap territories. Just the two things I've read on the forum myself so I don't really know.
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  • zeretexzeretex Senior Member Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    I heard two reasons, either it is because it's the demo or because it's because in feudal Japanese they didn't swap territories. Just the two things I've read on the forum myself so I don't really know.

    well the fact that it is a demo is not the reason ( check the screen shot i linked )

    and mikeb said himself
    If you think about it, matters cannot be any other way. From the moment that game loads, history is gone. Some historical processes have been abstracted and codified, but then we're selective about those too. So from the start, it’s a counterfactual, an alternate reality, something other than “true” history. We try to make something interesting and intriguing that captures some of the flavour of history, but then you get to play about with it and so stuff that never happened, might never have happened, should never have happened. It’s kind of cool, when you think about it. You get to have fun!

    which means tht history shouldnt realy matter in this case.
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  • KessenKessen Senior Member Posts: 382Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Oh rats, I was thinking of trading the Takeda some backwater province in exchange for their warhorse-producing home province.
  • TrenchKnifeTrenchKnife Senior Member Posts: 102Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    zeretex wrote: »
    well the fact that it is a demo is not the reason ( check the screen shot i linked )

    and mikeb said himself
    If you think about it, matters cannot be any other way. From the moment that game loads, history is gone.


    Yes, the specific path that history took is gone, but all TW games have always taken place within a historical framework specific and faithful to whatever time period and place they represent. The TW games have never been a pure sandbox. They have always been constrained by what was possible (or should I say probable) and likely within the given period of history. So if CA decided based on historical research that the trading/swaping of territories just wasnt done or was exceedingly rare then it makes sense for them not to include it. I too am guessing that that is why its not in the game.
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  • yakuza1979yakuza1979 Senior Member Posts: 210Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Personaly I don't miss it...
    never liked to exchange any part of my country :)
  • RikxRikx Senior Member Posts: 194Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    yakuza1979 wrote: »
    Personaly I don't miss it...
    never liked to exchange any part of my country :)

    You could demand a region as a spoil of war after crushing your opponnent on the battlefield. I used this in all the TW games to both expand my empire, and weaken the enemy. It would make sense that its not in Shogun 2, since you never hear of japanese surrendering their whole province just because the enemy demanded it. Then again, thats the whole point of The Art of War: to win without fighting. So if the game really follows the Art of War, it would this diplomatic option (although you could just siege the city and take it without having to fight, but they always fight or attack you so you end up fighting anyways).
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    I am personally glad that my enemy will stop spamming me with:

    "Give Region: X for ceasefire" after taking over 2/3 of their country."

    Quite honestly.
  • Temujin64Temujin64 Member Posts: 85Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Kessen wrote: »
    Oh rats, I was thinking of trading the Takeda some backwater province in exchange for their warhorse-producing home province.

    I doubt they'd ever agree, especially as it's their capital and I don't think you can move your capital either.
  • WargamerWargamer Senior Member Posts: 525Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Historically conceding/acquiring or swapping territories was not unknown in Japan, I think. Not 100 percent sure but I think it was more frequent than in the West.
  • SilvaSilva Senior Member Posts: 674Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Wargamer wrote: »
    Historically conceding/acquiring or swapping territories was not unknown in Japan, I think. Not 100 percent sure but I think it was more frequent than in the West.

    In general, if the land goes, the people, the clan, and the soldiers go with it. Clans and people were tied to their lands. The same as China. So it would be an incredible thing to see any lord willingly surrender any part of their lands, because it would constitute giving away not only the land but the people, the wealth and the resources associated with it. The gravity of such an act would be unspeakable shame, and probably lead to revolts.

    The only situations where dominion over land was willingly given by one clan to another, it usually involved one of the clans becoming a vassal. And in that case, the original clan would still technically be in power over the lands. It would just be that their lands would be in service of a greater lord in addition to their lord by alliance through hierarchy. I have not heard of any known agreements where land was given to another clan without it having been already conquered.
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  • daelin4daelin4 Senior Member Posts: 12,129Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    The only closest historical example I can find to a "swap" of territory was the Mori and Chokosabe clans' forced displacement at the end of teh Sengoku period, enforced by the new Tokugawa shogunate. Considering the resentment from such actions and the historical repercussions that came into play during the Meiji restoration, I'd say territory swap would be less historically realistic than vasslaship.
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  • WargamerWargamer Senior Member Posts: 525Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Maeda clan had to move around quite alot. Also Uesgi had to give up their terriotory and was given another piece of land. It was usually done at the insistence of their overlord but it happened, actually quite often. You guys seem to overestimate the "similarity" between China and Japan.

    Actually come to think of it, I can even find a few incidents of such nature from 2nd-3rd century China; three kingdom period.

    Anyway it is very disappointing that that feature is disabled in S2TW. Because internal trade is gone, or made non-taxable in S2TW, it would have been a lot of fun to give unmanageable terriotories to your allies so that you could gain more trade income.
  • SkurkanasSkurkanas Senior Member Posts: 533Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Eh, why shouldn't it have happened?

    Read some of the clans history on wikipedia, one get's the feeling that it happened all the time.
    A famous example would be Toyotomo Hideyoshi giving half of eastern Japan to Tokugawa Ieyasu, in order to keep his sphere of influence away from Tokyo.
    Oda was named after some forefather, wo was given that land by his overlord of that time. Then there are renowned clans like Uesugi & Maeda, you don't want to know how many of the smaller clans suffered that fate.

    So much for historical accuracy. Apart from that, i also loved that feature in earlier games. Far more satisfying than to simply conquer everything. If the actual game should follow the demo, i at least hope it's moddable
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  • KessenKessen Senior Member Posts: 382Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Temujin64 wrote: »
    I doubt they'd ever agree, especially as it's their capital and I don't think you can move your capital either.


    Really? Does that mean if you have 20 provinces, but if you lose your capital, the game ends? Or does your capital move to another province?
  • GrudgeNLGrudgeNL Senior Member Posts: 6,971Registered Users, Cakes!
    edited March 2011
    I wouldn't mind to have this feature in Shogun 2.... Although on second thought I would mind.

    I can remember those annoying "I want ur region!!" messages, every turn, again.
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  • SkurkanasSkurkanas Senior Member Posts: 533Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    GrudgeNL wrote: »
    I wouldn't mind to have this feature in Shogun 2.... Although on second thought I would mind.

    I can remember those annoying "I want ur region!!" messages, every turn, again.
    That was an Empire-thing. Albeit the most annoying one.

    So yeah i know i'm Hannover and stuff, but i do totally want this barren waste in north america! To...i don't know, set up a colony with no ressources, surrounded by enemies. What do you care anyway? U give plx???
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  • Hanzo HattoriHanzo Hattori Member Posts: 46Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Toyotomi after getting Tokugawa to end the Hojo alliance, then gave Tokugawa the Hojo land in exchange for some of Tokugawa's lands. Basically a land swap in exchange for allying with him. So that is another way that this can be used in diplomacy. To bad it isnt in the game, maybe they will patch it in?
  • zeretexzeretex Senior Member Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    GrudgeNL wrote: »

    I can remember those annoying "I want ur region!!" messages, every turn, again.

    they should rather just fix it than remove the diplomacy option for it <.<
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  • SilvaSilva Senior Member Posts: 674Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    There is a difference between having one's hand forced and strategically leaving a territory and signing over lands in diplomatic agreements. Influence and control over territory and people is much more fluid and dynamic in reality than it can be portrayed in the game. The same can be said for the complexity and depth of politics and diplomacy. When land was exchanged did happen, it was recorded as an incredible event because of how rare such agreements were. There were incredibly few events of separate clans handing over or trading entire provinces. Local rule did not equal complete control. In general, there was one person who was clearly in control of a province and had its resources and men at its call.

    @Skurkanas

    Since I know the example of Hideyoshi offering Hojo lands to Ieyasu, I will discuss this. This situation is more complex than a simple, give me your lands and have these. The lands that Hideyoshi was offering Ieyasu were still in Hojo hands, but they were expected to surrender. If they didn't, they would have been crushed by the superior force anyway. The lands offered were intended as war spoils, which implied there would need to be a quick occupation and a fast transition to the new rule. Ieyasu decided to take it for various reasons and put all his bets in.

    More importantly, it is stressed by a great many historians how incredible this event was. This did not happen on a daily basis. It was definitely not everyday that a lord left his provinces and moved to a new seat of power in a completely different region.

    EDIT: I forgot to add that despite arguing the historical side of things, I would also still like the option in the game to give and request territories. We are rewriting history in Total War (^ ^).
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  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,266Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    I am personally glad that my enemy will stop spamming me with:
    "Give Region: X for ceasefire" after taking over 2/3 of their country."
    Quite honestly.
    I'm with you on that one!
  • zeretexzeretex Senior Member Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Dribbs wrote: »
    I'm with you on that one!

    again, they should just fix this instead of removing that diplomacy option...
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  • Emperor BassoEmperor Basso Senior Member Posts: 243Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    But now you can't give one of your vassals a region after good work or something. I doubt that was something that the higher lords did, give a piece of land to your most honourable servants.

    And you can't give a region in the danger zone to one of your vassals to defend it. If you're under attack from the north and the east, and you have a vassal in the north. You can give that vassal your most northern region as a buffer. Than you don't have to pay a garrison for it, and you can fully concentrate on the east.

    (not that I use one of these options, but it might be effective)
  • DribbsDribbs Senior Member Posts: 1,266Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    zeretex wrote: »
    again, they should just fix this instead of removing that diplomacy option...
    Yeah, I do agree with you. I think it's a nice feature and should be included in the diplomancy options for human players. Unless the AI can be improved to use it in the right context, it's best left to human players.
  • Lucius BrutusLucius Brutus Senior Member Posts: 889Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Skurkanas wrote: »
    That was an Empire-thing. Albeit the most annoying one.

    So yeah i know i'm Hannover and stuff, but i do totally want this barren waste in north america! To...i don't know, set up a colony with no ressources, surrounded by enemies. What do you care anyway? U give plx???
    In Rome Total War, if you took one piece of land from someone on easy, (don't ask) they would spam you with "Give X cities back or else we will attack!" Again and again.
  • XooXoo Senior Member Posts: 2,997Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Does Shogun 2 diplomay as "County-offers"?
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  • Sol InvictusSol Invictus Senior Member Posts: 272Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    There was alot of swapping and exchange of territory during Toyotomi's reign but that is really after the timeline of the game. It didn't happen much during the height of the civil war from what I have read. I guess it would be a nice if rarely used option but options are always good. I won't miss it that much. The End War option is needed much more.
  • zeretexzeretex Senior Member Posts: 220Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    added some general tweaks to OP
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  • ranknfileranknfile Senior Member Posts: 6,311Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    Trading territories was a significant part of my NTW diplomacy ... I will miss it in S2TW, but will accept it if it is not historically accurate.
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  • amadieusamadieus Senior Member Posts: 136Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    A shame if it is indeed removed
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  • Wolfshart79Wolfshart79 Senior Member Posts: 260Registered Users
    edited March 2011
    This shouldn't have been removed. I hear those complaining about the AI spam asking for regions but that could have been easily fixed. It should at the least have been improved or limited to offering lands to vassals, as was done many times for trusted vassals during this time period. It takes the strategic nuance out of the game and relegates it to simply smash and grab expansion as the only viable play style...a very large hit for replayability. Please consider revising this CA.
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