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Garrisons of the Odrysian Kingdom & lack of anti-cavalry units

MarijanMarijan Senior MemberPosts: 2,001Registered Users
edited June 2014 in General Discussion
Hi there,

I just noticed that the garrisons of the Odrysian Kingdom do not include a single melee unit, regardless of the buildings in that region. Is this supposed to be the case or just another oversight, which is hopefully going to get addressed soon? Their garrisons are not only obviously badly balanced, but also fairly weak in terms of units quality as well, in comparison to the garrisons of many other factions.

Furthermore their unit roster in general seems to very lackluster in general, since many units are missing (for example units, which are using the Sica, which was a large dagger commonly used by Illyrians, Dacians and Thracians, or Spear-units, which are kind of essential for dealing with cavalry, especially since they also lack horse archers or cavalry with a bonus vs. "large"). It is historically inaccurate and imbalanced in terms of game-play that those units are missing, since it basically enables Nomadic factions, which happen to be located right next to them on the campaign map, to stomp this faction at ease, especially in combination with their "broken" garrisons.

I would like to know whether this lack of unit variety and historical accuracy is intended or just the result of laziness. Implementing units, which are using the Sica, would have been very easy, since they could use the exact same animations as regular sword units, but more important than historical accuracy would be giving this faction more unit variety and making it less imbalanced in comparison to other factions.

It is kind of sad that a very Hellenic Thracian kingdom is portrayed as mere Barbarian raiders, which were too stupid to use spears, or even sharpened sticks to defend themselves against cavalry, or any other melee weapons than the Rhomphaia, which limits them to blindly charging into their enemies, because they have less "melee defense" than naked savages (Thracian Warriors even have less armor than Naked Spears ...).

Even the lazy copy&pasting of units is better than no unit variety at all.
Post edited by Marijan on
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Comments

  • DetailedEyesDetailedEyes Senior Member AustraliaPosts: 4,715Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Their garrisons are currently 'bugged' just like half the DLC is, raiding is once again broken too(it gives a public order penalty again when it shouldn't) and the Getae cannot recruit archers if they upgrade the building past tier 2 :rolleyes:
    "We shall have peace. We shall have peace when you answer for the burning of the Westfold, and the children that lie dead there. When the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the Gates of the Hornburg are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet, for the sport of your own crows, we shall have peace."

    Theoden to Saruman at Orthanc, also my total war philosophy.
  • peugeot407peugeot407 Senior Member GueldersPosts: 1,362Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    The garrison thing is currently being adressed by CA, if a recent reply by the community team is anything to go by.
    Team Anything That Isn't (Western) Rome
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  • svehlic25svehlic25 Senior Member Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    I would expect a patch this week, probably tomorrow or Friday to address the issues. But than again, I would not hold my breath. we are also coming due for a bigger patch, since I don't count "patch 13" as anything substantial except a whack load of achievements for the people that care and some vague fixes.

    Only time will tell.
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  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Their garrisons are currently 'bugged' just like half the DLC is, raiding is once again broken too(it gives a public order penalty again when it shouldn't) and the Getae cannot recruit archers if they upgrade the building past tier 2 :rolleyes:

    It looks like it has been "bugged" for a while now, but they didn't do anything about it. Everyone who plays an Odrysian campaign should notice this in a matter of minutes. This thread is from March, about the same topic. Fixing the garrison of a faction shouldn't require multiple months.
    I would expect a patch this week, probably tomorrow or Friday to address the issues. But than again, I would not hold my breath. we are also coming due for a bigger patch, since I don't count "patch 13" as anything substantial except a whack load of achievements for the people that care and some vague fixes.

    Only time will tell.

    I don't know if they even recognize the ridiculously lackluster unit roster as an "issue", which needs to be addressed. Otherwise it would be an insolence to release it like that, but that didn't bother them in case of the game in general either though. I am getting really tired of waiting for essential improvements and fixes and I don't know how long I am willing to wait before I simply do not care anymore.
  • DetailedEyesDetailedEyes Senior Member AustraliaPosts: 4,715Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Marijan wrote: »
    It looks like it has been "bugged" for a while now, but they didn't do anything about it. Everyone who plays an Odrysian campaign should notice this in a matter of minutes. This thread is from March, about the same topic. Fixing the garrison of a faction shouldn't require multiple months.
    No it shouldn't, I could fix it in half an hour if I so desired using the PFM but other fixes have priority I guess :rolleyes:
    "We shall have peace. We shall have peace when you answer for the burning of the Westfold, and the children that lie dead there. When the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the Gates of the Hornburg are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet, for the sport of your own crows, we shall have peace."

    Theoden to Saruman at Orthanc, also my total war philosophy.
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    No it shouldn't, I could fix it in half an hour if I so desired using the PFM but other fixes have priority I guess :rolleyes:

    I don't think that people, which are working on those "other fixes", which have priority, like the siege-AI for example, would be improving these garrisons otherwise. It should be ridiculously easy to fix this issue and I am certain that they have separate employees for this kind of tasks. I highly doubt that all of them are so busy that nobody had time to fix this in multiple months - it just looks like they simply don't care at all.
  • svehlic25svehlic25 Senior Member Posts: 1,174Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Marijan wrote: »
    I don't think that people, which are working on those "other fixes", which have priority, like the siege-AI for example, would be improving these garrisons otherwise. It should be ridiculously easy to fix this issue and I am certain that they have separate employees for this kind of tasks. I highly doubt that all of them are so busy that nobody had time to fix this in multiple months - it just looks like they simply don't care at all.

    Looking more and more like it isnt it.
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  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    In my opinion they need, a midtier better armored rhomphaia unit, one or 2 spears while one is more tribal while the other one is greek influenced, one or two archer units with 150 range heavy shot while one is solidly armored and the other one lighter. maybe even a sica unit, if we get any. makes 14 units in the roster which is as many as the suebi have and in my opinion the minimum for every faction!
  • Alaric IIIAlaric III Senior Member Posts: 726Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Well before you moan about how limited the roster of The Odrysian Kingdom is, do remember that Thracian nobles are better than Praetorians. It's a very robust unit - I'd say CA need to be careful not to make this faction OP, it's already one of the most used factions in multiplayer from my observations.
    Vox Senatoris numquam iterum audietur
    The voice of the Senator will never be heard again

    í dauða er dýrð
    There is glory in death

    May the Visigoths prevail!
  • CSiva13CSiva13 Senior Member Posts: 809Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    rome 2 is not just multiplayer , most people play on campagn including me and O.Kingdom are ridiculus on campagn , no melee garrisson , no anti cav units you will play almost all campagn with just 1 melee unit nobles are **** to hard to get , they need a mid tier melee unit and a elit archer unit , the wiki says that the tracians have the best archers , in game they only have 1 unit of standart archer dont even have eavy shot .
    Rome 2 finished campaigns .
    GC---Odrysian Kingdom, Lusitani , Cimmeria , Iceni , Baktria , Massagetae , Sparta ,Pergamon , Getae , Athens .
    HATG---Lusitani , Syracuse , Rome .
    IA----Lepidus .
    CIG---Nervii .
    WOS---Boiotian League
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Alaric III wrote: »
    Well before you moan about how limited the roster of The Odrysian Kingdom is, do remember that Thracian nobles are better than Praetorians. It's a very robust unit - I'd say CA need to be careful not to make this faction OP, it's already one of the most used factions in multiplayer from my observations.

    They are not better than Praetorian Guards at all. They can beat them if you get a clean charge, but as overall melee unit they are inferior, because they can be countered easily and are much less flexible in terms of use, while the Praetorian Guard performs great in almost any situation. In addition to that, the Roman unit roster in general is big and has a lot of variety, which enables the player to use the Praetorian Guard more effectively, by protecting their flanks properly etc., while the Odrysian Kingdom lacks any actual anti-cavalry units for example.

    They are currently being used because they are a) a new faction, b) were anticipated for a long time, c) are at least kind of unique and look cool, unlike the copy&paste Tylis for example.
  • Sgt. JohnyMcChickenSgt. JohnyMcChicken Senior Member Posts: 405Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Alaric III wrote: »
    Well before you moan about how limited the roster of The Odrysian Kingdom is, do remember that Thracian nobles are better than Praetorians. It's a very robust unit - I'd say CA need to be careful not to make this faction OP, it's already one of the most used factions in multiplayer from my observations.

    Elephants, pikes, chariots, cataphracts and heavy skirmishers and your nobles are done for. Bad excuse for having only 2 melee infantry units. They get used, because they are new and not because they are op. Just wait people will switch back to rome and baktria before tomorrow :)!

    PS: ****, got ninjad :D!
  • Alaric IIIAlaric III Senior Member Posts: 726Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Marijan wrote: »
    They are not better than Praetorian Guards at all. They can beat them if you get a clean charge, but as overall melee unit they are inferior, because they can be countered easily and are much less flexible in terms of use, while the Praetorian Guard performs great in almost any situation. In addition to that, the Roman unit roster in general is big and has a lot of variety, which enables the player to use the Praetorian Guard more effectively, by protecting their flanks properly etc., while the Odrysian Kingdom lacks any actual anti-cavalry units for example.
    The Thracian Nobles are very flexible when it comes to use - what you've described is that Thracian Nobles are bad if you don't use them the way they are supposed to be. The challenge of using the Odrysian Kingdom is outflanking robust armies from Rome, or be destroyed. It makes sense. The Roman Empire survived, the Thracian tribes did not.
    Now I'm not including you in this generalisation, but many people complain when the campaign is too easy because factions all have the same basic build. I mean, unless you can support the idea that the Odrysian Kingdom had a huge variety of long lasting heavy infantry (additions of which into their roster would make them a Thracian-Dacian superpower - negating the intrigue of playing as the Getae or Tylis because their roster will already be covered by the OK) then I'd rather CA leave the rosters as they are. Diversity is enjoyable. By all means, include the sica - that'd be cool, but not every faction was strong in every aspect. That's why there were superpowers, and tribes that were crushed. The OK fall into the latter category, historically.
    Vox Senatoris numquam iterum audietur
    The voice of the Senator will never be heard again

    í dauða er dýrð
    There is glory in death

    May the Visigoths prevail!
  • tak22tak22 Senior Member Posts: 2,384Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    I do think it's a bit odd they don't get spears; something with low armour but good-ish defense, maybe a bit Greek-looking but with the Barbarian 'shield screen' and anti-cav abilities would go nicely, I think; as would a melee-capable heavy skirmisher unit (with the sica, since that is much-requested).

    Although, according to wiki (I know, I know . . .) the straight blade of the rhomphaia meant that, as a hafted weapon, it could be used as a 'hedge' in close formation if need be to repel cav, sort of as a substitute spear. So, in a pinch, it could be interesting to give them a 'close order' formation which would switch them to spear animations and give +bracing and +vs. cav, at the cost of mobility and vulnerability to missiles. This could make them a bit OP, though.
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Alaric III wrote: »
    The Thracian Nobles are very flexible when it comes to use - what you've described is that Thracian Nobles are bad if you don't use them the way they are supposed to be. The challenge of using the Odrysian Kingdom is outflanking robust armies from Rome, or be destroyed. It makes sense. The Roman Empire survived, the Thracian tribes did not.

    I guess every faction should have ridiculously inferior unit rosters then, in comparison to Rome, shouldn't they? Regardless of the fact that the game doesn't start during Rome's prime and is all about changing the course of history etc., and that the success of Rome wasn't solely based on the quality of their soldiers at all (especially not the quality of the Praetorian Guard, which were a) not a main component of their armies and b) the worst guards ever, considering how many emperors were actually protected by them ...).

    The Thracian Nobles are not very flexible at all. They excel if you get a clean charge, but they aren't that great anymore if you don't - or can't, for example while defending city walls. In addition to that they are ridiculously easy to counter by using trash-units as sponges for their charges for example, and very vulnerable to being charged or missile fire, which is especially great if you consider that the faction has barely any way to properly deal with horse archers of Nomadic factions or cavalry charges in general, due to their lack of anti-cavalry-units. Furthermore historical accuracy is less important than actual game-play and balance, but their lackluster unit roster isn't historically accurate at all, since they definitely used spears and the Sica and probably even had access to horse archers, since they were known for their great archers (which they btw do not have either ...) and once ruled about regions where horse archers are very common.
    Now I'm not including you in this generalisation, but many people complain when the campaign is too easy because factions all have the same basic build. I mean, unless you can support the idea that the Odrysian Kingdom had a huge variety of long lasting heavy infantry (additions of which into their roster would make them a Thracian-Dacian superpower - negating the intrigue of playing as the Getae or Tylis because their roster will already be covered by the OK) then I'd rather CA leave the rosters as they are. Diversity is enjoyable. By all means, include the sica - that'd be cool, but not every faction was strong in every aspect. That's why there were superpowers, and tribes that were crushed. The OK fall into the latter category, historically.

    No units are no replacement for unit variety, especially if it is neither historically accurate nor good in terms of game-play and balance. The Odrysian Kingdom was very powerful once and the Greeks didn't fear the Thracians, because they were idiotic Barbarians, who couldn't use more than one melee weapon - they were very early Hellenized and portraying the Thracians as mere and weak barbarian savages is simply wrong.
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,559Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    tak22 wrote: »
    I do think it's a bit odd they don't get spears; something with low armour but good-ish defense, maybe a bit Greek-looking but with the Barbarian 'shield screen' and anti-cav abilities would go nicely, I think; as would a melee-capable heavy skirmisher unit (with the sica, since that is much-requested).

    Although, according to wiki (I know, I know . . .) the straight blade of the rhomphaia meant that, as a hafted weapon, it could be used as a 'hedge' in close formation if need be to repel cav, sort of as a substitute spear. So, in a pinch, it could be interesting to give them a 'close order' formation which would switch them to spear animations and give +bracing and +vs. cav, at the cost of mobility and vulnerability to missiles. This could make them a bit OP, though.

    As the Rhomphaia is a pole arm I'm all for giving them either the cavalry counter tactics or an infantry square.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • DetailedEyesDetailedEyes Senior Member AustraliaPosts: 4,715Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    That's something I'd like to know about cavalry counter tactics, if a unit with no bonus vs cav e.g thracian nobles was given the ability would it give them a flat bonus or just multiply the 0 bonus they already have?
    "We shall have peace. We shall have peace when you answer for the burning of the Westfold, and the children that lie dead there. When the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the Gates of the Hornburg are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet, for the sport of your own crows, we shall have peace."

    Theoden to Saruman at Orthanc, also my total war philosophy.
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Erminaz wrote: »
    As the Rhomphaia is a pole arm I'm all for giving them either the cavalry counter tactics or an infantry square.

    I don't even get why they do not have the Bonus vs. "Large". I have seen them being called the "No-Dachi"s of Total War: Rome 2 many times by now, which seems to be fairly accurate, except for that the No-Dachi could be effectively used against cavalry. The Thracians could even use their Rhomphaia as a spear-like weapon against cavalry. Even if we simply assume that the Rhomphaia was very ineffective against cavalry - are we really supposed to believe that the Thracians were stupid enough to keep using nothing but this weapon, although getting some spears or even just sharpened sticks, would have been easy and more effective? The spear is probably one of the simplest weapons out there and that a faction, which is falsely portayed as barbaric savages, although their culture was very Hellenized, doesn't have access to this rudimentary weapon is kind of ironic.
  • Alaric IIIAlaric III Senior Member Posts: 726Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Marijan wrote: »
    I guess every faction should have ridiculously inferior unit rosters then, in comparison to Rome, shouldn't they? Regardless of the fact that the game doesn't start during Rome's prime and is all about changing the course of history etc., and that the success of Rome wasn't solely based on the quality of their soldiers at all (especially not the quality of the Praetorian Guard, which were a) not a main component of their armies and b) the worst guards ever, considering how many emperors were actually protected by them ...).

    Rome is my example of choice, I do not mean that I want every game to have Rome be top dog - heck I don't even like the faction. I do not remember claiming that the success of an empire was based on the individual soldier - in fact I have clearly said that it is the way you use them that matters, which you would appreciate if you read my post. Falx units excel at flanking and clean charges - it is your prerogative as a general to play to the strengths of your army. The factions in the game are designed for entertainment - and in tribes like these the entertainment lies in using their very much elite soldiers (because stat wise the Thracian Nobles are the best infantry in the game) and limited roster (which historically was clearly inferior to factions like Rome and the Seleucids). That is fun - we know the Thracians commanded falx units, and that specialises them and makes them interesting to play. But they shouldn't be moulded into a superpower, which they were not. If you can't win with that faction - maybe it just wasn't meant to be?
    Marijan wrote: »
    The Thracian Nobles are not very flexible at all. They excel if you get a clean charge, but they aren't that great anymore if you don't - or can't, for example while defending city walls. In addition to that they are ridiculously easy to counter by using trash-units as sponges for their charges for example, and very vulnerable to being charged or missile fire, which is especially great if you consider that the faction has barely any way to properly deal with horse archers of Nomadic factions or cavalry charges in general, due to their lack of anti-cavalry-units. Furthermore historical accuracy is less important than actual game-play and balance, but their lackluster unit roster isn't historically accurate at all, since they definitely used spears and the Sica and probably even had access to horse archers, since they were known for their great archers (which they btw do not have either ...) and once ruled about regions where horse archers are very common. No units are no replacement for unit variety, especially if it is neither historically accurate nor good in terms of game-play and balance.

    You're speculating. When the unit roster of every faction is speculated on in this way - what we have is the same build for every faction which creates a very bland game based exclusively on the stats, and this creates a rock-paper-scissors environment. This is not what total war is and it is definitely not what I want to play. Speculation can be good if we know little about the faction and it actually improves the game play experience without minimising the quality of gameplay of other factions (like an omnipotent Odrysian Kingdom would).
    The pertinent question is: How do you decide which faction deserves a more full roster?
    An example might be "I think the Suebi should have Berserker battalions with higher unit numbers, on top of which I think they should have elite archers and many more mid-high tier infantry units. I think this is justified because the Suebi are a generally weak faction. This would not unbalance the game in relation to other factions because the unit types are totally different and it would create a variety in gameplay experience, it being the only playable germanic faction." This is a valid point, and it could be fun to see implemented, despite perhaps having an impact on historical accuracy. Under certain circumstances this is a good thing.
    The problem with the OK arises when speculating on more elite units because other surrounding factions have very similar units (like the Getae and Tylis). As I have said already, a serious expansion on the already formidable roster of the OK (boasting the best infantry unit in that game) would make the neighbouring factions redundant. Why play either Getae or Tylis when you can play those rosters with additional superior infantry as the OK? You see how that damages the playability of the game? That's also totally ignoring the effect speculation of unit roster has on historical accuracy. I've yet to see evidence that the Odrysian kingdom should have the heavy skirmishers of the Getae and defensive infantry of Tylis.
    Marijan wrote: »
    The Odrysian Kingdom was very powerful once and the Greeks didn't fear the Thracians because they were idiotic Barbarians, who couldn't use more than one melee weapon - they were very early Hellenized and portraying the Thracians as mere and weak barbarian savages is simply wrong.

    It's a well known fact that Greeks thought anything north of Macedon was barbarian. Macedon (which we all agree was a hellenic faction) claimed Hellenism, and was laughed at and scorned by other Greek factions. This we know. By Greek definitions, Thracian tribes were also barbarians. Barbarism isn't a matter of advancement so much as a xenophobic term. The Thracian tribes were known to be savage, however, with Roman helmets being adapted specifically to protect against savage falx cuts.
    No one claims the OK was weak, they have the strongest infantry in the game after all - what they are is a very specialised faction that demands to be played in such a way, or risk infringing on the enjoyment of other factions. As you say gameplay is more important than historical accuracy - so if OK miss out on one or two speculated units for the challenge an excitement of the faction as well as the integrity of other in game content, no tears will be shed by me.
    Vox Senatoris numquam iterum audietur
    The voice of the Senator will never be heard again

    í dauða er dýrð
    There is glory in death

    May the Visigoths prevail!
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,628Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Thracians need some bow-cav (yes, they had it historically), some medium melee infantry with shields that can actually stop a few arrows (I'd like to see some thracian nobles with medium armor, shields, and sica; and maybe some low tier melee infantry such as hillmen (perhaps called thracian tribesmen or something)), Thracian Peltasts need a bit more melee oomph via atk/dmg, and honestly they need a couple basic spear units (light/medium spears).
  • TomislavTomislav Senior Member Posts: 651Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Marijan wrote: »
    (Thracian Warriors even have less armor than Naked Spears ...).

    It looks like CA wants shields that are not actually held in a hand to give 20 armor.
    So rhomphaia and pike units get the same armor from their shields.
    I don't agree with how CA handles Melee Defense but from a gameplay perspective it doesn't bother me too much.

    I agree that the Odrysian Kingdom needs spear units.
    I would say give them units similar to Dacian Tribesman and Spears* at the very least.
    Sica units for the Balkan factions would be great also.

    *Great job naming that unit.
  • DetailedEyesDetailedEyes Senior Member AustraliaPosts: 4,715Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Tomislav wrote: »
    I would say give them units similar to Dacian Tribesman and Spears* at the very least.


    *Great job naming that unit.
    Well it would be a bit rude to just call them cannon fodder wouldn't it? :D
    "We shall have peace. We shall have peace when you answer for the burning of the Westfold, and the children that lie dead there. When the lives of the soldiers, whose bodies were hewn even as they lay dead against the Gates of the Hornburg are avenged! When you hang from a gibbet, for the sport of your own crows, we shall have peace."

    Theoden to Saruman at Orthanc, also my total war philosophy.
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Alaric III wrote: »
    Rome is my example of choice, I do not mean that I want every game to have Rome be top dog - heck I don't even like the faction. I do not remember claiming that the success of an empire was based on the soldier - in fact I have clearly said that it is the way you use them that matters, which you would appreciate if you read my post. The factions in the game are designed for entertainment - and in tribes like these the entertainment lies in using their very much elite soldiers (because stat wise the Thracian Nobles are the best infantry in the game) and limited roster (which historically was clearly inferior to factions like Rome and the Seleucids). That is fun - we know the Thracians commanded falx units, and that specialises them and makes them interesting to play. But they shouldn't be moulded into a superpower, which they were not.

    No, you simply did not get it. We know that they had soldiers, who used the falx, so we give them no other melee weapons besides that one, although the Sica is another popular example for kind of unique weapons used by those factions? We portray them as savages, but do not give them the simplest and most rudimentary weapon against cavalry, the spear, although they were confronted with cavalry numerous times and ones ruled regions with native Nomadic tribes? That isn't entertaining, that is plain stupid. This lack of unit variety is obviously historically inaccurate and turns this faction into a joke for Nomadic factions - or anyone with proper cavalry, since the faction has no anti-cavalry units at all. It is an obvious imbalance and flaw, both in terms of game-play and historical accuracy, nothing else. It would be as stupid as giving Macedon nothing but pike infantry, because they were known for using pike infantry.
    You're speculating.

    No, I am not "speculating". The Thracian Nobles are not the "best infantry" at all, not even the best melee infantry. They are an inflexible unit, which is only great if you get a clean charge and otherwise inferior to other, more solid infantry units, which are in addition to that supported by better and more variable unit rosters, which enable players to use them more effectively. If you are under the misconception that the Thracian Nobles are the "best infantry" in general in this game, there is no point in discussing anything related to balance with you any further.

    I never said that any faction should be able to do anything equally good or bad - but there are some basics, like spears, which even cavemen were able to craft and use, which should be available to all factions, especially if they were historically confronted with cavalry many times, do not even have any other anti-cavalry-units and if the falx does not receive a "bonus vs. large" for some reason. It is just dumb to portray a faction, especially such a civilized one, as too stupid to think of using spears against horses, if they do not have anything else.
    It's a well known fact that Greeks thought anything north of Macedon was barbarian. Macedon (which we all agree was a hellenic faction) claimed Hellenism, and was laughed at and scorned by other Greek factions. This we know. By Greek definitions, Thracian tribes were barbarians. Barbarism isn't a matter of advancement so much, as a xenophobic term. The Thracian tribes were known to be savage, however, with Roman helmets being adapted specifically to protect against savage falx cuts. No one claims the OK was weak, they have the strongest infantry in the game after all - what they are is a very specialised faction that demands to be played in such a way, or risk infringing on the enjoyment of other factions. As you say gameplay is more important than historical accuracy - so if OK miss out on one or two speculated units for the challenge an excitement of the faction as well as the integrity of other in game content, no tears will be shed by me.

    Your "well known fact" is simply false. Everyone who wasn't Greek was a Barbarian in the literal sense of the Greek word, regardless of their location. The game falsely portrays people, which were considered as Barbarians, as savages, simply because some "Barbarians" were savages and the Greeks thought of themselves as more civilized. The Odrysian Kingdom, just as an example, was so Hellenized that they even adopted the Greek language. They were far from being "savages" or uncivilized, yet, they share basically everything in terms of infrastructure with minor tribes at the other end of the world, except for their religious buildings, even their "cultural buildings". If they are too lazy to give them anything actually unique, they should be more "Hellenic" than "Barbarian". The actual matter though is their unit roster, which is ridiculously lackluster, in both historical accuracy and balance, for already mentioned and honestly quiet obvious reasons.
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USAPosts: 5,559Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Alaric III wrote: »
    ... they have the strongest infantry in the game after all...

    Although it is straying form the topic, what is your criteria for strongest infantry in the game? To me that means versatility. Thracian Nobles are not versatile at all.


    Spears have been used by every culture through out the world. They are one of the oldest tools in existence and the absence of them just doesn't make sense. At the very least they should have some levy spearmen.

    If they don't want to give them spears they could at the very least give a bonus vs large to rhamphaia units, It is a pull arm thus suited for fighting cavalry. The Thracian Nobles are a glass cannon and it wouldn't really effect the faction "balance" by giving them the means to fight off cavalry as any skirmisher unit will decimate them anyway.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • Alaric IIIAlaric III Senior Member Posts: 726Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Erminaz wrote: »
    Although it is straying form the topic, what is your criteria for strongest infantry in the game? To me that means versatility. Thracian Nobles are not versatile at all.
    Their insane damage and charge stats - they can maintain combat with melee infantry, despite being shock infantry - that means they exploit more than one niche, therefore they are also versatile. Yes you have to use them wisely, but something can only be as strong as it's function. A wall makes a **** cannon.

    @Marijan If this is all just going to be a debate of opinion, then neither of us will win and it appears we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see how you've proven the fact that Greeks thought things north of them weren't barbarians? You've disagreed and then agreed. Yes, everywhere else was barbarian too, but that wasn't what I was arguing, and it doesn't disprove my point. I will admit I could be wrong on historical points regarding Thrace however, I haven't researched the matter.
    Vox Senatoris numquam iterum audietur
    The voice of the Senator will never be heard again

    í dauða er dýrð
    There is glory in death

    May the Visigoths prevail!
  • MarijanMarijan Senior Member Posts: 2,001Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Alaric III wrote: »
    Their insane damage and charge stats - they can maintain combat with melee infantry, despite being shock infantry - that means they exploit more than one niche, therefore they are also versatile. Yes you have to use them wisely, but something can only be as strong as it's function. A wall makes a **** cannon.

    They lose in prolonged melee combat, if they do not get a clean charge, to other elite melee infantry. Therefor they are certainly not the best melee infantry, because in many situations you can not charge properly to begin with or the enemy can easily counter it by preventing you from charging your actual target by using trash units as sponges. In addition to that they are comparably vulnerable to missiles and being charged, which is in combination with their lackluster unit roster even more devastating, since their whole unit roster can barely deal with horse archers and cavalry in general.
    @Marijan If this is all just going to be a debate of opinion, then neither of us will win and it appears we're going to have to agree to disagree. I don't see how you've proven the fact that Greeks thought things north of them weren't barbarians? You've disagreed and then agreed. Yes, everywhere else was barbarian too, but that wasn't what I was arguing, and it doesn't disprove my point. I will admit I could be wrong on historical points regarding Thrace however, I haven't researched the matter.

    I do not think that it is a matter "of opinion", whether a civilized faction should have access to one of the simplest rudimentary weapons out there, especially in case of a faction which ruled over Nomadic tribes and was confronted with cavalry numerous times, which makes the development of anti-cavalry-units essential. I do not think that it is an actual matter "of opinion" either, whether it makes sense in terms if historical accuracy and balance to limit a faction to only one (out of multiple) unique weapons they were known for, and thereby portraying them to be too stupid to use other weapons, which would have been more effective and in addition to that cheaper, although it is historically inaccurate. This is poor game design or the result of laziness. If you like these historically inaccurate imbalances, you can always limit yourself to use only a specific type of unit, without necessarily ruining it for the rest of us by not implementing other units at all.

    No, I said that everyone who wasn't Greek was considered as "Barbarian", not just north of them, but also anywhere else. That does not rationalize to portray any faction as savages, especially in case of heavily Hellenized cultures, because "Barbarian" doesn't equal "savage" at all. The problem is not how they are called, but how they are portrayed in the game - the Odrysian Kingdom, or Thracians in general, are portrayed as mere savages, which share basically their whole infrastructure with minor tribes of savages from the other end of the world. That is lazy and historically inaccurate, since these people were heavily influenced by Hellenic cultures and adopted a lot of things from the Greeks, including their language.
  • CSiva13CSiva13 Senior Member Posts: 809Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    o.kingdom is bad on single player very bad .
    Rome 2 finished campaigns .
    GC---Odrysian Kingdom, Lusitani , Cimmeria , Iceni , Baktria , Massagetae , Sparta ,Pergamon , Getae , Athens .
    HATG---Lusitani , Syracuse , Rome .
    IA----Lepidus .
    CIG---Nervii .
    WOS---Boiotian League
  • ItharusItharus Senior Member Posts: 6,628Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    People fixate on the charge of the Thracian Nobles then say the roster is fine. Tunnel vision! Whee!

    Hint: bring missile troops, aim at thracian warriors/nobles, profit. You never have to receive a charge if you're willing to yield the ground.
  • Nico CANico CA Creative Assembly Posts: 1,222Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    Hi all,

    Thanks for your feedback regarding the additional units you would have liked to have.

    As we previously said, our teams are currently investigating the issue you have experienced with the garrison during your Odrysian Kingdom campaign. We do not have any ETA on when this game aspect will be fixed/changed.

    We’ll let you know as soon as we have received new information regarding this matter.
    - CA Senior Community Coordinator -

    The formal disclaimer: any views or opinions expressed here are those of the poster and do not necessarily represent the views or opinions of The Creative Assembly or SEGA.
  • ArcaianArcaian Senior Member Posts: 564Registered Users
    edited June 2014
    There we go folks - not intentional :)
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