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hoplites

sigrsigr Senior MemberRegistered Users Posts: 715
edited July 2014 in General Discussion
so i enjoy playing rome 2, and the multiplayer i find extremely enjoyable. however, i do have some niggles, most
notable, hoplites. they just aren't quite what i imagined. i really wish that they were this type of tank unit, spearmen that are weak when out of formation but very strong when in phalanx, so more of a defensive unit with high armour that excels when in phalanx but when caught out becomes weaker. at the moment they feel like just another
spearman, making the illyrians useless and all the different athenian/syracuse hoplite variants pointless. apart from
thorax and, on occasion, normal varieties, the hoplites just become filler. i cannot think of any reason to bring elite hoplites, but what do you guys think?
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Post edited by sigr on
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Comments

  • SjirikiSjiriki Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,370
    edited July 2014
    You just described hoplites. Basic hoplites are tanky and will last a good while in melee, and a very long time when in phalanx mode. They also have high morale making them hard to rout. Elite hoplites greatly increase their staying power while also slightly increasing their bite.
  • Sieggi858Sieggi858 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 527
    edited July 2014
    Hopefully sometime in the future, somebody could implement a pushing feature in game, whether through mods or CA. A wall of hoplites pushing the enemy back is basically how hoplites won most battles.
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    Hoplites had swords but only the Spartans actually trained themselves in its use. The rest had it only as decoration.
  • sigrsigr Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 715
    edited July 2014
    i suppose so, its just that as of yet i see no point in using elite hoplites in multiplayer; they just feel like every other spear unit
    <insert witty signature>
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  • TomislavTomislav Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 651
    edited July 2014
    sigr wrote: »
    i suppose so, its just that as of yet i see no point in using elite hoplites in multiplayer; they just feel like every other spear unit

    From my experience, there isn't really a point in using elite spears (hoplites or not) in multiplayer.
  • CauselessCauseless Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 364
    edited July 2014
    shawn858 wrote: »
    Hopefully sometime in the future, somebody could implement a pushing feature in game, whether through mods or CA. A wall of hoplites pushing the enemy back is basically how hoplites won most battles.

    It's not possible through mods, as far as I am aware. Please bump the thread here to grab CA's attention on this particular issue: http://forums.totalwar.com/showthread.php/130297-Formation-and-Mass-in-Rome-2
  • Tyer032392Tyer032392 Senior Member FloridaRegistered Users Posts: 4,787
    edited July 2014
    Tomislav wrote: »
    From my experience, there isn't really a point in using elite spears (hoplites or not) in multiplayer.

    Not really, but this has been like that for a very long time. If someone were to bring an elite unit, than they will have to sacrifice two unit slots for that one. In most multiplayer games, the player with the most men and the best tactics win if they can encircle and crush the opposition. This is exactly one of the reasons why in Shogun 2, you'd see a lot of people with mostly Ashigaru armies supported with a few samurai and a few cavalry for that moral bonus, and hit on the enemy lines.
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  • bellerophontesbellerophontes Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 110
    edited July 2014
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    You just described hoplites. Basic hoplites are tanky and will last a good while in melee, and a very long time when in phalanx mode. They also have high morale making them hard to rout. Elite hoplites greatly increase their staying power while also slightly increasing their bite.

    Yes, they last a while. Is that really enough though? Factions like Sparta have what to take advantage of that? Citizen cav and skirmishers? I still believe hoplite style units should excel in melee against sword unit. It doesn't make any sense! If the Hellenic factions would have been at a disadvantage don't you think they would have switched to swords?

    I've said this in a different thread, take out the bonus versus infantry for sword units. Spears in my mind should be basically more versatile pike units. They will shred units if you charge right into their phalanx and can be thrown into flanks reliably. They shouldn't just be holding forces that will still die since it not only doesn't make sense, but also limits Hellenic factions to royal peltasts and thorax swordsmen.
    Θουκυδίδης / Thucydides:

    "History is Philosophy teaching by examples."

    Πλούταρχος / Plutarch:

    "To be ignorant of the lives of the most celebrated men of antiquity is to continue in a state of childhood all our days."
  • sigrsigr Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 715
    edited July 2014
    sorry, i didn't explain myself properly. what i meant is that when people are picking their general, if given a choice between a royal peltast or a shield bearer, you can expect people to bring the royal peltast. its more the case that i find myself raising my eyebrows when someone brings a hoplite as a general, as opposed to bringing cav or swords. i feel that it would be nicer if elite hoplites could be something you'd have to consider your opponent bringing to battle. this goes for all spears. when fighting the averni in multiplayer i have never seen anyone bring spear nobles, but i wish that it wasn't so.
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  • bellerophontesbellerophontes Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 110
    edited July 2014
    sigr wrote: »
    sorry, i didn't explain myself properly. what i meant is that when people are picking their general, if given a choice between a royal peltast or a shield bearer, you can expect people to bring the royal peltast. its more the case that i find myself raising my eyebrows when someone brings a hoplite as a general, as opposed to bringing cav or swords. i feel that it would be nicer if elite hoplites could be something you'd have to consider your opponent bringing to battle. this goes for all spears. when fighting the averni in multiplayer i have never seen anyone bring spear nobles, but i wish that it wasn't so.

    It's because there is no point to bringing them. They die to all sword infantry and are too slow to get to cav fights. Basically they have no use at all. A royal peltast can stand up to basically any infantry unit in the game besides praetorians.
    Θουκυδίδης / Thucydides:

    "History is Philosophy teaching by examples."

    Πλούταρχος / Plutarch:

    "To be ignorant of the lives of the most celebrated men of antiquity is to continue in a state of childhood all our days."
  • OhdowsOhdows Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,160
    edited July 2014
    Tyer032392 wrote: »
    Not really, but this has been like that for a very long time. If someone were to bring an elite unit, than they will have to sacrifice two unit slots for that one. In most multiplayer games, the player with the most men and the best tactics win if they can encircle and crush the opposition. This is exactly one of the reasons why in Shogun 2, you'd see a lot of people with mostly Ashigaru armies supported with a few samurai and a few cavalry for that moral bonus, and hit on the enemy lines.

    That sounds quite like real life...

    And it also show the true pro's of the spear: its availability and ease of use. Why bring a swordsman when I can have 3 spearmen?

    Very few professional armies used spear as their primary weapon and very few non professional used swords. (barbaric must be considered semi professional at least)
  • MadfortwMadfortw Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 412
    edited July 2014
    It's because there is no point to bringing them. They die to all sword infantry and are too slow to get to cav fights. Basically they have no use at all. A royal peltast can stand up to basically any infantry unit in the game besides praetorians.

    How about if instead of using spears to rack up kills, use them as a deterrent. What I like to do is watch my opponent panic and pull out of cav engagements as soon as he sees spears flanking the cav on cav engagement. As he pulls out your cav will kill the stragglers. You then anvil using 1 or 2 units of cav whilst supporting their rear with the spear unit and chasing after the rest of the depleted cav with the rest of your cav.

    It gets trickier once an opponent knows what your tactics are regarding the spear if you play them more than once. Head to head campaigns for example. It's the same with pikes. Don't get them in your army if you believe they are going to rack up Calvary kills. Use them as a deterrent and you'll see that you can change your tactics around and have fun watching the opponent panic as he helplessly watches your cav anvil the swords.
  • bellerophontesbellerophontes Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 110
    edited July 2014
    Ohdows wrote: »
    That sounds quite like real life...

    And it also show the true pro's of the spear: its availability and ease of use. Why bring a swordsman when I can have 3 spearmen?

    Very few professional armies used spear as their primary weapon and very few non professional used swords. (barbaric must be considered semi professional at least)

    Again, the Greek states prove you wrong. All hoplites had a backup sword, but they usually used their spear. Why? Well, it must have been very effective. It isn't just swords are better than spears. Any skilled and disciplined spear unit will keep the sword unit from even getting close, especially if in a phalanx formation.
    Θουκυδίδης / Thucydides:

    "History is Philosophy teaching by examples."

    Πλούταρχος / Plutarch:

    "To be ignorant of the lives of the most celebrated men of antiquity is to continue in a state of childhood all our days."
  • bellerophontesbellerophontes Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 110
    edited July 2014
    Madfortw wrote: »
    How about if instead of using spears to rack up kills, use them as a deterrent. What I like to do is watch my opponent panic and pull out of cav engagements as soon as he sees spears flanking the cav on cav engagement. As he pulls out your cav will kill the stragglers. You then anvil using 1 or 2 units of cav whilst supporting their rear with the spear unit and chasing after the rest of the depleted cav with the rest of your cav.

    It gets trickier once an opponent knows what your tactics are regarding the spear if you play them more than once. Head to head campaigns for example. It's the same with pikes. Don't get them in your army if you believe they are going to rack up Calvary kills. Use them as a deterrent and you'll see that you can change your tactics around and have fun watching the opponent panic as he helplessly watches your cav anvil the swords.

    I can have the same effect with a three hundred talon militia hoplite. I'm fine with cheap hoplites being holding units that are decent helpers in a cav fight. However, you would just be wasting money with anything over a thureos spears since they cant do anything after supporting a cav fight. You also can't do that with factions like the Spartans who only have spears and pikes. There is also no reason whatsoever why spears should be deemed weaker.
    Θουκυδίδης / Thucydides:

    "History is Philosophy teaching by examples."

    Πλούταρχος / Plutarch:

    "To be ignorant of the lives of the most celebrated men of antiquity is to continue in a state of childhood all our days."
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited July 2014
    Hoplites had swords but only the Spartans actually trained themselves in its use. The rest had it only as decoration.
  • bellerophontesbellerophontes Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 110
    edited July 2014
    Hoplites had swords but only the Spartans actually trained themselves in its use. The rest had it only as decoration.

    So, they would carry around extra weight and extra gear that would make them more cumbersome because it looks pretty? Well, that comment makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.
    Θουκυδίδης / Thucydides:

    "History is Philosophy teaching by examples."

    Πλούταρχος / Plutarch:

    "To be ignorant of the lives of the most celebrated men of antiquity is to continue in a state of childhood all our days."
  • ErminazErminaz Senior Member Las Vegas, Nevada, USARegistered Users Posts: 5,755
    edited July 2014
    Hoplites had swords but only the Spartans actually trained themselves in its use. The rest had it only as decoration.

    Did you actually just say that?

    Hoplite 1: What are you doing?
    Hoplite 2: Well I saw this sword at the market place and thought, that would go so well with my breast plate and just had to have it. Although I have no idea how to use it I think it just makes the outfit.
    Tacitus Quotes:
    Auferre, trucidare, rapere, falsis nominibus imperium; atque, ubi solitudinem faciunt, pacem appellant.
    They plunder, they slaughter, and they steal: this they falsely name Empire, and where they make a wasteland, they call it peace.

    Corruptissima re publica plurimae leges.
    The more numerous the laws, the more corrupt the government.

    I found Rome a city of filth covered marble and left it a pile of rubble. - Me
  • Sieggi858Sieggi858 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 527
    edited July 2014
    Hoplites had swords but only the Spartans actually trained themselves in its use. The rest had it only as decoration.


    Not sure if trolling oorr......


    btw that is definitely becoming my signature
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    Hoplites had swords but only the Spartans actually trained themselves in its use. The rest had it only as decoration.
  • PwrdOffPwrdOff Member Registered Users Posts: 91
    edited July 2014
    It is a bit silly that this game features such a huge variety of spear units when there's not much of a point in using any of them. Still though, at this point in history hoplites had mostly become obsolete on the battlefield - as defensive troops they're outmatched by pikemen and they aren't as flexible or versatile as legionaries on the attack. Certainly plenty of soldiers still carried spears into battle, partly because of cost and partly because a spear makes you feel safe out there in a way that a sword can't, but warfare had evolved past the point where you could just hide behind a shield wall and outlast the other guy, and the weakness of hoplites in the game reflects that.
  • ikyu828ikyu828 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 242
    edited July 2014
    PwrdOff wrote: »
    as defensive troops they're outmatched by pikemen and they aren't as flexible or versatile as legionaries on the attack.
    defensively imo hoplites is better now, pike units including the elite are very vulnerable to range attack
  • thehugmonsterthehugmonster Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 162
    edited July 2014
    Erminaz wrote: »
    Did you actually just say that?

    Hoplite 1: What are you doing?
    Hoplite 2: Well I saw this sword at the market place and thought, that would go so well with my breast plate and just had to have it. Although I have no idea how to use it I think it just makes the outfit.


    Yeah you can see hoplites dancing around their swords most weekends ;-) lol!!!!
  • SetrusSetrus Senior Member SwedenRegistered Users Posts: 18,767
    edited July 2014
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    You just described hoplites. Basic hoplites are tanky and will last a good while in melee, and a very long time when in phalanx mode. They also have high morale making them hard to rout. Elite hoplites greatly increase their staying power while also slightly increasing their bite.

    I agree, hoplites are great in defending in melee and surviving missiles. Their phalanx makes them not only even more tough against missiles and attacks, but also keeps elephants from punching right through them AND makes them conserve their fatigue, tiring the enemy but not them when in combat.
    Hoplites are the tanks of the game. And what's the definition of a tank gameplay-wise? The ability to TAKE punishment, not dishing it out...and in that they're great. :)
    Yes, they last a while. Is that really enough though? Factions like Sparta have what to take advantage of that? Citizen cav and skirmishers? I still believe hoplite style units should excel in melee against sword unit. It doesn't make any sense! If the Hellenic factions would have been at a disadvantage don't you think they would have switched to swords?

    Wasn't that exactly what they did? Silver swordsmen, thorax swords...aren't they basically Rome 1's Imitational legionaires? I thought many nations tried to copy Rome's military-structure, down to the very equipment of the soldiers? :)
    Don't worry.
  • Prkl8rPrkl8r Junior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,049
    edited July 2014
    I like hoplites and their tank wall gameplay.

    My problem is with factions that are hoplite-centric, most notably Sparta, but also Athens and a few others to a lesser degree. These factions based on the current gameplay balance, lack the hammer for their anvil.

    In singleplayer, there are ways around it, mostly by being very patient, in multiplayer i assume nobody ever plays Sparta ever.....ever.
  • OhdowsOhdows Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 1,160
    edited July 2014
    Again, the Greek states prove you wrong. All hoplites had a backup sword, but they usually used their spear. Why? Well, it must have been very effective. It isn't just swords are better than spears. Any skilled and disciplined spear unit will keep the sword unit from even getting close, especially if in a phalanx formation.

    Hoplites weren't professionals.

    And hoplite warfare where famous for low casualties. <5% for the winner and about the doubble for the loser.
    So it was effective at holding the enemy off, as they are in game. No other unit can take a beating like the hoplites in game.
  • greycatgreycat Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 2,580
    edited July 2014
    Ohdows wrote: »
    Hoplites weren't professionals.

    With the exception of the Spartans. But yes hoplite warfare did not originate with professionals in mind.
  • ShiroAmakusa75ShiroAmakusa75 Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 34,001
    edited July 2014
    Erminaz wrote: »
    Did you actually just say that?

    Hoplite 1: What are you doing?
    Hoplite 2: Well I saw this sword at the market place and thought, that would go so well with my breast plate and just had to have it. Although I have no idea how to use it I think it just makes the outfit.
    Hoplites were citizen soldiers, not a professional military, they had to provide their gear themselves, so this isn't actually all that far from the truth.
  • bellerophontesbellerophontes Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 110
    edited July 2014
    Setrus wrote: »
    I agree, hoplites are great in defending in melee and surviving missiles. Their phalanx makes them not only even more tough against missiles and attacks, but also keeps elephants from punching right through them AND makes them conserve their fatigue, tiring the enemy but not them when in combat.
    Hoplites are the tanks of the game. And what's the definition of a tank gameplay-wise? The ability to TAKE punishment, not dishing it out...and in that they're great. :)



    Wasn't that exactly what they did? Silver swordsmen, thorax swords...aren't they basically Rome 1's Imitational legionaires? I thought many nations tried to copy Rome's military-structure, down to the very equipment of the soldiers? :)

    Yes, many nations copied Rome's structure. (Actually it wasn't Rome's but that is a separate topic) But this is before Rome truly became a superpower. Pyrrhus just had his encounter with the Romans and found out that they were more than barbarian italic tribes. However even the spiritual successor to the Romans (Byzantines) later dropped the formation for a more cavalry centric style of fighting. It wasn't a perfect unbreakable formation that outperformed everything. It was simply more effective in the situations and environments it was employed in than other types of formations at the time. Just as Hoplites would beat any Roman maniple system if it was in either a chokepoint or a wide field with mountains on each side to prevent flanking.

    Oh, and the thorax and thureos units are from the celts who raided in the northern parts of Greece. The Tylis and Galatians are those celts actually.
    Θουκυδίδης / Thucydides:

    "History is Philosophy teaching by examples."

    Πλούταρχος / Plutarch:

    "To be ignorant of the lives of the most celebrated men of antiquity is to continue in a state of childhood all our days."
  • WindyWindWindyWind Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 166
    edited July 2014
    I find hoplites are very good for holding the enemy in one place while other do the rest
  • bellerophontesbellerophontes Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 110
    edited July 2014
    Ohdows wrote: »
    Hoplites weren't professionals.

    And hoplite warfare where famous for low casualties. <5% for the winner and about the doubble for the loser.
    So it was effective at holding the enemy off, as they are in game. No other unit can take a beating like the hoplites in game.

    You are right, besides the Spartans and some mercenary groups hoplites started out as citizens of that polis who could afford the weapons and armor. They had low casualties for a few reasons. One, they didn't want to be fighting and killing other Greeks if they didn't want to. If you look back at the times of the Persians everyone was trying to gain control of Greece to eventually fight the Persians. You would just be limiting the manpower required to do so by killing off people for the fun of it.

    Another reason is that each side has the exact same heavy armor, shield, and long spear. It is really difficult to get up close and kill someone wearing so much armor. Especially if the guy behind him can attack too. Not to mention the guys to his left and right. It was really more of who would get tired and rout first when dealing with hoplite on hoplite warfare. that's not to say they can't get kills, look at the Persian wars. Any lightly armed unit would be shredded to pieces by hoplites. And Alexander the Great had traditional hoplites in his army. On the right if I'm not mistaken. He must have seen some use to have them, right? His pikes were the holding force, so the hoplites couldn't take that position.
    Θουκυδίδης / Thucydides:

    "History is Philosophy teaching by examples."

    Πλούταρχος / Plutarch:

    "To be ignorant of the lives of the most celebrated men of antiquity is to continue in a state of childhood all our days."
  • jupstojupsto Senior Member Registered Users Posts: 327
    edited July 2014
  • Green JacketGreen Jacket Senior Member Melton Mowbray, Leicestershire, EnglandRegistered Users Posts: 1,513
    edited July 2014
    Hoplites are just pointless... especially against sword infantry... whatever the quality.
    "Interdum feror cupidine partium magnarum Europae vincendarum"
    "Sometimes I get this urge to conquer large parts of Europe"
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