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Thorax Swords Need Boost

IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior MemberPosts: 330Registered Users
edited November 2014 in Total War Eras Multiplayer
Patch 16 brought a lot of welcome changes and one "wtf were you thinking" change(increasing mass of elephants).

But one thing missing was a thorax sword boost.

As it stands right now thorax swords arent relevant. Severly hampering factions like massilia, macedon, selecids and the others that rely upon the thorax as their mid tier sword.

I am really regretting not posting this earlier. so that the devs would have been made aware. but please for the hotfix do a minor change to thorax they need to be buffed!

I would love you for it <3
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Post edited by IdioManiac on
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  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Patch 16 brought a lot of welcome changes and one "wtf were you thinking" change(increasing mass of elephants).

    But one thing missing was a thorax sword boost.

    As it stands right now thorax swords arent relevant. Severly hampering factions like massilia, macedon, selecids and the others that rely upon the thorax as their mid tier sword.

    I am really regretting not posting this earlier. so that the devs would have been made aware. but please for the hotfix do a minor change to thorax they need to be buffed!

    I would love you for it <3


    PS

    As it stands right now any barbarian civ runs over a thorax with their mid tier sword. and Late Libyan hoplites(300 cost ones) can tank a throax for well over 10 minutes while with another Late Libyan they will win decisively.
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  • MartijjnMartijjn Senior Member The NetherlandsPosts: 441Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Thorax Swordsmen are probably the most popular units in the entire game and is one of the last units that should receive a buff imo.
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  • TheGeorgianOneTheGeorgianOne Senior Member Posts: 145Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    No they don't.

    I'm trying to support my claim with arguments as good as you do :)

    To be honest - I really don't think they need boost. You got tons of other options with hellenistic factions, for instance you can go with main line of hoplites, as they were made better in patch 15.
  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Posts: 6,127Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Martijjn wrote: »
    Thorax Swordsmen are probably the most popular units in the entire game and is one of the last units that should receive a buff imo.

    Agreed.

    They're pretty cost effective as it is now, they just obviously can't stand up to elites from Rome and other powerful infantry factions.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

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  • Nelorix,the CaledonianNelorix,the Caledonian Senior Member Serbia,Jagodina/Finland,JyväskyläPosts: 2,163Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Georgian 1 best 1
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  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    No they don't.

    I'm trying to support my claim with arguments as good as you do :)

    To be honest - I really don't think they need boost. You got tons of other options with hellenistic factions, for instance you can go with main line of hoplites, as they were made better in patch 15.

    What would you consider proof? I have replays of every single game I have played, many of which contain games with thorax cores(all patch 15). I also have several screens with my opponents going thorax core and having them do nothing(I make no guarantees as to their skill as good players dont use thorax as a core). What would you prefer as proof? I am also willing to play you while you use thorax against an army you consider balanced.

    My steam profile is also linked.

    Simple fact is that "proof" as you say is disallowed on the forum via the naming and shaming rule. but i am willing to give proof outside of it. If you of course are willing.
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  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    I am speaking form a multiplayer perspective, and IN MP they are very very weak.
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  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Posts: 6,127Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Not really, they're one of the mostly globally used units. Probably the most used unit in the game. They're far from weak. They're why Baktria are so powerful, cost effective infantry(Thorax Swords), cost effective Cav and decent skirmishers.

    Thorax Swordsmen are not made to be powerhouse infantry, they're made to be affordable and cost effective, they won't beat down other infantry easily, but they're affordable, so you can bring plenty.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

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  • AggonyDuckAggonyDuck Senior Member Posts: 3,641Registered Users, Smiley
    edited November 2014
    The lack of a strong and affordable sword infantry unit is one of the ways to keep the hellenic and greek factions from being supremely versatile. The Hellenic factions already have great skirmishers and shock cavalry, hoplites and pikemen plus other useful units like Thureos Spears, Elephants and Scythed Chariots.
  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Ironside12 wrote: »
    Not really, they're one of the mostly globally used units. Probably the most used unit in the game. They're far from weak. They're why Baktria are so powerful, cost effective infantry(Thorax Swords), cost effective Cav and decent skirmishers.

    Thorax Swordsmen are not made to be powerhouse infantry, they're made to be affordable and cost effective, they won't beat down other infantry easily, but they're affordable, so you can bring plenty.

    the very problem is they arent cost effective. And if you pay any attention to the tournament scene you will almost never see anyone go with a thorax core and win.

    Int he end test this, thorax sword vrs tribal warriors of tylis. 10 cost difference, or chosen swords of averni again 10 cost difference. I have and the bottom line is that they will lose every-time and badly.
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  • SjirikiSjiriki Senior Member Posts: 1,370Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    IdioManiac wrote: »
    I am speaking form a multiplayer perspective, and IN MP they are very very weak.

    I think you need to redefine very very weak. Because they are not. Sure, they're like that when compared to oathsworn but that's a frankly insane comparison. When you compare them to units in the same price bracket/tier you will find that they're quite comparable. I guess thorax swords are the average unit here, excelling neither in attack or defense, while other units have higher attack but lower defense (libyans) or higher defense and damage but lower attack (chosen swords) Other units which are not included but follow the same principles may be cheaper and weaker on the whole (pontic swords) or more expensive and stronger (kartli axes) but I purposely did not include them because I thought this was the best comparison

    So I think the units on this tier are nicely balanced when compared to each other
  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Posts: 6,127Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    IdioManiac wrote: »
    the very problem is they arent cost effective. And if you pay any attention to the tournament scene you will never see anyone go with a thorax core. maybe one or 2.

    Int he end test this, thorax sword vrs tribal warriors of tylis. 10 cost difference, or chosen swords of averni again 10 cost difference. I have and the bottom line is that they will lose every-time and badly.

    You're comparing units of completely different purposes head on head. Barbarians have a lot of infantry power, and you expect Hellenic Sword infantry to beat them?

    Chosen Swords are an incredible sword unit in my opinion, Thorax may be around the similar cost, but there are so many different things to factor into a fight. Plus testing units 1v1 isn't a way to judge their worth, it's all about the entire build.

    As I said before, they are NOT the killing power. If you don't use them properly they won't be cost effective, that much is obvious. They used to be killing power when the Bonus vs Infantry still applied to all sword units, but that was unrealistic. The Hellenics did NOT have a powerful sword infantry core. So making Thorax Swordsmen powerful wouldn't be accurate.

    Different units suit different purposes, use it right, it'll be cost effective as all hell, use it wrong, and it won't be.

    They can come in large numbers and be used effectively, or for flanking forces on the side of Hoplite/Pike cores.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

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  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    AggonyDuck wrote: »
    The lack of a strong and affordable sword infantry unit is one of the ways to keep the hellenic and greek factions from being supremely versatile. The Hellenic factions already have great skirmishers and shock cavalry, hoplites and pikemen plus other useful units like Thureos Spears, Elephants and Scythed Chariots.

    okay but even now they just aren't competitive. A powerhouse build in this meta is a mid tier sword spam. Reason Rome boii and tylis are so strong right now. I fully understand that you don't play rome 2 online. But simple fact is with the nigh impossible usage of pikes atm, swords dominate, and hoplites don't stand up to a sword rush. meanwhile barbs have the best mid tier melee cav in the game with the heavy horse.

    I have never seen anyone successfully go with 6 thorax. This si wrong they need to be at least a little viable. Right now they are fodder. Nothing more nothing less. And massila will remain int he worst five factions int he game. The Seleucid will never stop being a 1 trick pony and baktrian players will always suffer the question of wtf do i bring vrs a melee rush if not only elephants.
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  • TheGeorgianOneTheGeorgianOne Senior Member Posts: 145Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    AggonyDuck wrote: »
    The lack of a strong and affordable sword infantry unit is one of the ways to keep the hellenic and greek factions from being supremely versatile. The Hellenic factions already have great skirmishers and shock cavalry, hoplites and pikemen plus other useful units like Thureos Spears, Elephants and Scythed Chariots.

    That's exactly what I tried to say. I'm not saying thorax swords are superb. They are just ok, but shouldn't be considered without the context of other units available to the factions using them. And I really don't need to prove anything to anyone, but if you're going with a thorax swords core you're doing it wrong.
  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    They are just ok, but shouldn't be considered without the context of other units available to the factions using them. .

    The problem is that what these factions have available to them is diddly squat. Look at Macedon, they have thess cav, and that's it. Epherius is such a better option right now it isnt even funny. I would love to see someone WIN against a player of EQUAL skill with Macedon and no noob boxing vrs a boii or tylis inf rush. As far as I am aware it isnt possible.
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  • 59tiger9559tiger95 Senior Member Posts: 681Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    IdioManiac wrote: »
    okay but even now they just aren't competitive.

    what are you smoking that Hellenic factions aren't competitive? I want that stuff does it work for on Rome too?
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  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    59tiger95 wrote: »
    what are you smoking that Hellenic factions aren't competitive? I want that stuff does it work for on Rome too?

    I was referring to Thorax. But in all honestly, i would say he successor states are the weakest factions right now along witht he Iberians and the black sea colonies.
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  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Mod who moved topic merge with toher one? then delete this post?
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  • IdioManiacIdioManiac Senior Member Posts: 330Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Ironside12 wrote: »
    You're comparing units of completely different purposes head on head. Barbarians have a lot of infantry power, and you expect Hellenic Sword infantry to beat them?

    Chosen Swords are an incredible sword unit in my opinion, Thorax may be around the similar cost, but there are so many different things to factor into a fight. Plus testing units 1v1 isn't a way to judge their worth, it's all about the entire build.

    As I said before, they are NOT the killing power. If you don't use them properly they won't be cost effective, that much is obvious. They used to be killing power when the Bonus vs Infantry still applied to all sword units, but that was unrealistic. The Hellenics did NOT have a powerful sword infantry core. So making Thorax Swordsmen powerful wouldn't be accurate.

    Different units suit different purposes, use it right, it'll be cost effective as all hell, use it wrong, and it won't be.

    They can come in large numbers and be used effectively, or for flanking forces on the side of Hoplite/Pike cores.

    Then they need to be cheaper. Because for 710 you get nothing close to the effectiveness you get out of chosen swords or tribal warriors.
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  • DiplomattDiplomatt Senior Member Preston, UKPosts: 1,136Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    If thorax swords beat other swords that cost less then they are well balanced and don't need changing
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  • AggonyDuckAggonyDuck Senior Member Posts: 3,641Registered Users, Smiley
    edited November 2014
    IdioManiac wrote: »
    the very problem is they arent cost effective. And if you pay any attention to the tournament scene you will almost never see anyone go with a thorax core and win.

    Int he end test this, thorax sword vrs tribal warriors of tylis. 10 cost difference, or chosen swords of averni again 10 cost difference. I have and the bottom line is that they will lose every-time and badly.

    The Thorax Swordsmen are a solid unit and offer value for money against factions without top infantry. Against factions that have better infantry, you'd be foolish to expect a core of Thorax Swordsmen to win you the battle. Against those factions, you'll have to use the advantage in cavalry or skirmishers to decice the battle in your favour.

    The reason why they aren't as effective as Chosen Swordsmen or Tribal Warriors is that the Celts are reliant on their strong swords to carry the rest of their roster. What the Greek and Hellenic factions lose in terms of sword effectiveness, they gain in skirmishers and spearmen (not to mention shock cavalry).
  • SjirikiSjiriki Senior Member Posts: 1,370Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Ironside12 wrote: »
    You're comparing units of completely different purposes head on head. Barbarians have a lot of infantry power, and you expect Hellenic Sword infantry to beat them?

    Chosen Swords are an incredible sword unit in my opinion, Thorax may be around the similar cost, but there are so many different things to factor into a fight. Plus testing units 1v1 isn't a way to judge their worth, it's all about the entire build.

    As I said before, they are NOT the killing power. If you don't use them properly they won't be cost effective, that much is obvious. They used to be killing power when the Bonus vs Infantry still applied to all sword units, but that was unrealistic. The Hellenics did NOT have a powerful sword infantry core. So making Thorax Swordsmen powerful wouldn't be accurate.

    Different units suit different purposes, use it right, it'll be cost effective as all hell, use it wrong, and it won't be.

    They can come in large numbers and be used effectively, or for flanking forces on the side of Hoplite/Pike cores.

    I find them useful for flanking together with Thureos spears. Thureos spears can throw javelins and scare off cav while the thorax swords can deal a decent amount of damage on a rear charge. They're also very useful for tying up units because of their toughness.

    And yeah, 1v1 is a terrible comparison.
    IdioManiac wrote: »
    Then they need to be cheaper. Because for 710 you get nothing close to the effectiveness you get out of chosen swords or tribal warriors.

    Those tribal warriors and chosen swords would run a lot faster and die a lot faster when flanked due to the absence of formation attack. So when outnumbered thorax swords would outperform, to name an example. When charged by cavalry their higher mass will also save them casualties. Finally, when your general is dead thorax swords won't give a **** and keep fighting where your examples, lacking the discipline trait, would turn tail and run.

    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.
  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Posts: 6,127Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    IdioManiac wrote: »
    Then they need to be cheaper. Because for 710 you get nothing close to the effectiveness you get out of chosen swords or tribal warriors.

    Oh my god...

    Do you really think every unit should be equal on certain prices? That is honestly so stupid, sorry. But it is. That would mean stupid balancing, every unit performing almost the same for the cost. That kills the point of faction balancing, faction strengths and faction weaknesses.

    The Hellenics DID NOT have great swordsmen as a main core unit. Is it that hard to understand? Factions have strengths and weaknesses. Don't like it? Then you play a different faction, it's the entire point of faction diversity, different strengths and weaknesses, and you need to play to these.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

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  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Posts: 6,127Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

    This is one of the top three things people on these forums need to understand.
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

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  • HannibalBarkasHannibalBarkas Senior Member Posts: 2,860Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    No, they are fine.
    Ironside12 wrote: »
    This is one of the top three things people on these forums need to understand.

    Tell us, what are the other two? :)
  • Ironside12Ironside12 Senior Member Posts: 6,127Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    Tell us, what are the other two? :)

    1.) The next patch will not be announced the same day as the current one is released, it won't be announced for quite awhile.

    2.) Engine modifications to the engine for ATTILA means that some new things in that game cannot be ported back to Rome II.

    3.) That I can't count. :rolleyes:

    There are probably more things but hey, these are the ones that annoy me the most.. also people on the Facebook page say the same stupid stuff..

    P.S. Sjiriki, I nabbed that comment for my signature, hope you don't mind :P
    Sjiriki wrote: »
    Balancing is a far more intricate thing than looking at who wins a 1v1 fight.

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  • TheGeorgianOneTheGeorgianOne Senior Member Posts: 145Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    IdioManiac wrote: »
    But in all honestly, i would say he successor states are the weakest factions right now along witht he Iberians and the black sea colonies.

    I was right. You are doing it wrong.
  • BillyRuffianBillyRuffian Moderator UKPosts: 36,065Registered Users, Moderators, Knights
    edited November 2014
    Similar threads merged.

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  • HannibalBarkasHannibalBarkas Senior Member Posts: 2,860Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    IdioManiac wrote: »
    I was referring to Thorax. But in all honestly, i would say he successor states are the weakest factions right now along witht he Iberians and the black sea colonies.

    So Bactria and Seleucids are amongst the weakest factions now? What is the strongest faction? The mighty Ardiaei?
  • TrayvianTrayvian Senior Member Posts: 1,262Registered Users
    edited November 2014
    I have never had an issue with Thorax Swordsmen. They are actually really good at waylaying the enemy.

    They will not win an infantry fight against superior units without support but the army is there to work together.

    Thorax at the core holds their infantry in place, your cavalry hits their ranged and infantry in the ***, while your ranged units kill their cavalry (Even Noble Horse die faster to skirmishers and slingers with focussed fire).

    So yeah...Thorax aren't Kensai's and I am grateful for that.

    I'm not sure why everyone is complaining about Massilia. Playing as them on Legendary has finally given me the challenge CA said we'd get from Sparta. Sparta was never a challenge. Massilia is though so thank you CA!
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