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Attila Mini survey discussion

FredrinFredrin Senior MemberLondonPosts: 3,012Registered Users
edited December 2014 in The Graveyard
Does anyone think it would be a good idea to add some specific questions re the game's price-point? I which price range they believe the game should fit into at release.
Post edited by Fredrin on

Comments

  • ranknfileranknfile Senior Member Posts: 7,365Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    Fredrin wrote: »
    Does anyone think it would be a good idea to add some specific questions re the game's price-point? I which price range they believe the game should fit into at release.

    Such as

    What price range would you like the game to be:
    1) Expensive
    2) Moderately expensive
    3) Cheap
    4) Free

    Yeah, I'm curious as to what "the people" think they should pay; if anything. Seriously, include the "free" option. Doing so will shed much light on the usefulness of polls in general.
    "Whoever desires is always poor" - Claudian
  • Welsh_DragonWelsh_Dragon Senior Member Great BritainPosts: 2,914Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    ranknfile wrote: »
    Such as

    What price range would you like the game to be:
    1) Expensive
    2) Moderately expensive
    3) Cheap
    4) Free

    Yeah, I'm curious as to what "the people" think they should pay; if anything. Seriously, include the "free" option. Doing so will shed much light on the usefulness of polls in general.

    The thing is, what one person classifies as expensive another may classify as cheap. You might be better off having a two step question, firstly giving specific price ranges and then asking whether they consider it value for money.

    E.g.:

    Which price range would you like the game to be:
    1) £50+
    2) £40-£50
    3) £30-£40
    4) £20-£30
    5) Under £20
    6) Free

    For the previous question do you consider the amount you said:

    1) Very Expensive
    2) Moderately Expensive
    3) Reasonable
    4) Cheap
    5) Very Cheap

    Just a thought.

    All the Best,

    Welsh Dragon.
    CraigK CA wrote:
    I think Welsh Dragon knows too much...
    "You might very well think that. I couldn't possibly comment."
  • ranknfileranknfile Senior Member Posts: 7,365Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    Actually my point is many would consider "free" to be "reasonable." I know this by studying voting patterns. Polls are merely a collection of opinions. People who do not have businesses have opinions on what businesses should do yet ... why don't they simply open a business and SHOW people "how it's done?"

    .. and the answer to that is "Talk is cheap!"

    Basically, I think polls are next to useless, additionally the wording of the questions can skew the poll one way or another.

    Just my opinion, polling is a prosperous business, it's here to stay. However I personally give polls little credibility.
    "Whoever desires is always poor" - Claudian
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonPosts: 3,012Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    ranknfile wrote: »
    Basically, I think polls are next to useless, additionally the wording of the questions can skew the poll one way or another.

    You think gathering community opinion is a useless exercise? Seems a bit overly critical.

    Funnily enough, I quizzed people about helpfulness in the electronic version of the survey we have running and you're currently in a 3% minority on that.

    That's the nature of opinion though, I guess. Some are more extreme than others.
  • ranknfileranknfile Senior Member Posts: 7,365Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    Fredrin wrote: »
    You think gathering community opinion is a useless exercise? Seems a bit overly critical.

    Funnily enough, I quizzed people about helpfulness in the electronic version of the survey we have running and you're currently in a 3% minority on that.

    That's the nature of opinion though, I guess. Some are more extreme than others.

    You do not realize that "next to useless" =/= "useless?"

    I don't mind being in the minority, I prefer to be correct, regardless if that is the majority opinion or not.

    BTW, I did take your polls both here and at TWC. As I'm curious to see what people think. Doesn't mean I think the majority opinion is correct, or even intelligent; that doesn't mean I give the majority opinion any credence.

    At given times in history the majority may think the earth is flat; or think an ethnic group should not have the same rights. The majority can be oppressive, brutish, ignorant, and factually incorrect. So .. "yes" .. polls are next to useless; IMO anyway.
    "Whoever desires is always poor" - Claudian
  • GrudgeNLGrudgeNL Senior Member Posts: 7,178Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    ranknfile wrote: »
    I don't mind being in the minority, I prefer to be correct, regardless if that is the majority opinion or not.

    This.


    @Fredrin

    What I believe ranknfile is aiming at; If 90% gave a biased and therefore unreasonable answer, it doesn't have make them right. The other 10% could be far more neutral and/or reasonable. A poll doesn't translate and seperate all bias and emotion. Bias already exists with questions like number 14.

    Question 14 is in my opinion an unnecessary question that shouldn't be part of a survey. A common person with no knowledge on game design, projects and budgets will answer that question with 'yes, CA should do that'. Even though that is not the best and most logical course of action.

    While 'near to useless' is maybe not the best term for a poll, translated into graphs and whatnot, but outdated may be a better term.
    Grudge's Mods
    Total War: Karling - Coming soon...-ish
    Grudge's Total War: Attila - Sassanid UI skin here on the Steam Workshop
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonPosts: 3,012Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    ranknfile wrote: »
    I don't mind being in the minority, I prefer to be correct, regardless if that is the majority opinion or not.

    That logic doesn't apply here I'm afraid. The reason being, this is an opinion poll.

    Are you implying that the opinion of 97% of other people is incorrect because it is not the same as yours?

    I have lost count of the number of times I have read posts from people defending the game saying "If that is your opinion, do not buy the game!" or "stop these negative posts which think that your opinion is more important than mine" or "how dare someone presume to think they can change my opinion on this".

    ... And now, that is precisely what you are doing.

    GrudgeNL said: "If 90% gave a biased and therefore unreasonable answer, it doesn't have make them right. The other 10% could be far more neutral and/or reasonable. A poll doesn't translate and seperate all bias and emotion."

    I'm astounded by the consistent hypocrisy on this matter. GrudgeNL, you personally deem this 90% to be giving an unreasonable answer. You're entitled to think otherwise, but surely you don't have to be an expert in "game design, projects and budgets" in order to have an opinion! I'm sure many people would argue that calling the 90% unreasonable is because of your own, personal bias.

    This kind of logic is just as offensive as the "oppressive, brutish and ignorant" majority ranknfile made mention of. Has this forum become some kind of technocratic hierarchy where only those who spend a considerable chunk of their free time swotting up on the latest TW news are entitled to an opinion that counts? If so, how is it in any way serving the interests of the 99% of people who aren't here day in, day out?
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonPosts: 3,012Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    I will back this up with an example from the survey's results. Question 14, since that is the one you make reference to GrudgeNL.

    "Do you think the features mentioned in this announcement should also be implemented into Rome 2, either for free or as a paid-for DLC?"

    First of all, I would be interested to know how the phrasing of this question makes it biased.

    Second, let's have a look at the results with 280 responses in so far.... 18 of those people don't think those features should be put into Rome 2.

    Does that make them right? Not necessarily, because that is their opinion. Does that make you, ranknfile and the other 16 people right? Not necessarily, because that is your opinion.

    However, it might be nice for those 262 other people to know that they are not the only ones that feel this way. Because sometimes, with zealous posters like yourselves who will try extra hard to defend CA, it can make them feel that way.

    Lastly, and most importantly, it might actually be helpful for the developer to know that only 6% actively don't want these features in the game, while the majority of the rest feel very strongly they do.

    They also might find it quite interesting that about 160 of these people would actively consider buying existing Rome 2 DLC if this was to happen.

    This process is called "giving feedback". If I was a developer, I would be pretty keen to get my hands on this data, rather than see the efforts in collecting it being hampered by a small and outspoken minority.
  • GrudgeNLGrudgeNL Senior Member Posts: 7,178Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    Fredrin wrote: »

    I'm astounded by the consistent hypocrisy on this matter. GrudgeNL, you personally deem this 90% to be giving an unreasonable answer. You're entitled to think otherwise, but surely you don't have to be an expert in "game design, projects and budgets" in order to have an opinion! I'm sure many people would argue that calling the 90% unreasonable is because of your own, personal bias.

    This kind of logic is just as offensive as the "oppressive, brutish and ignorant" majority ranknfile made mention of. Has this forum become some kind of technocratic hierarchy where only those who spend a considerable chunk of their free time swotting up on the latest TW news are entitled to an opinion that counts? If so, how is it in any way serving the interests of the 99% of people who aren't here day in, day out?

    What are you talking about? I am trying to explain what I believe ranknfile may mean. Does my reply feel like some kind of personal attack? It surprises me, since you seem to be the guy who cares about opinions. Consider ranknfile's and my comment as an opinion aswell.

    And yes, I do feel 90%/question 14 may be unreasonable. For a poll doesn't tell the entire story and back ground. It simply offers statistics which can be interpreted in very bad ways. Such as; 'CA should add every cool feature from Attila into Rome II. ..I will even pay for it..!'

    If you don't share that opinion, fine. But calling me a zealous defender of CA and my comment consistent hypocrisy goes to show how biased you and your poll are. You're only adding further evidence I have against question 14.
    Grudge's Mods
    Total War: Karling - Coming soon...-ish
    Grudge's Total War: Attila - Sassanid UI skin here on the Steam Workshop
  • ranknfileranknfile Senior Member Posts: 7,365Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    Fredrin wrote: »
    ... First of all, I would be interested to know how the phrasing of this question makes it biased.....

    If you are referring to post # 40, I said nothing about "bias" in that post. My point was that too many would choose the "free" option, not that the question was biased. "Polls" ... as in "polls in general" can be phrased to skew the answers one way or another, so I did mention that elsewhere, but not in reference to any of your questions or your poll.
    Fredrin wrote: »
    ...Second, let's have a look at the results with 280 responses .....

    How do these 280 responses correspond to people who those who pre-ordered? Is it actually representative of the player base? Isn't that important?
    Fredrin wrote: »
    ... If I was a developer, I would be pretty keen to get my hands on this data, rather than see the efforts in collecting it being hampered by a small and outspoken minority.

    I'm not attempting to "hamper" your poll, I have had and have expressed my belief on polls long before The Creative Assembly existed, let alone a poll on one of their games; before many of those responding to this poll were born even. I've had this belief long before there were even Personal Computers, so don't take my long-held criticism of polls as personal - directed towards you personally - as it is not.

    In any case, I will comment no more on this thread. I apologize if I upset or insulted you; I do often become frustrated to see all the negativity. It seems to be - very often - far beyond what I consider constructive criticism.
    "Whoever desires is always poor" - Claudian
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonPosts: 3,012Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    ranknfile wrote: »
    I'm not attempting to "hamper" your poll, I have had and have expressed my belief on polls long before The Creative Assembly existed, let alone a poll on one of their games; before many of those responding to this poll were born even. I've had this belief long before there were even Personal Computers, so don't take my long-held criticism of polls as personal - directed towards you personally - as it is not.

    In any case, I will comment no more on this thread. I apologize if I upset or insulted you; I do often become frustrated to see all the negativity. It seems to be - very often - far beyond what I consider constructive criticism.

    Likewise, I apologise if my reaction was overly defensive. I have put hours into designing and executing an initiative that is supposed both serve the interests of the community by expressing their feeling en masse and assist the developer in receiving these opinions, with a view to making their games more successful in the future. And when polls are denounced in pretty strong terms and quite frequently on the thread in which I'm trying to do this, I do get a bit ticked off, so sorry about that. I will concede they are an imperfect tool, but one that I believe can still be effective on occasions ;)
  • FredrinFredrin Senior Member LondonPosts: 3,012Registered Users
    edited December 2014
    GrudgeNL wrote: »
    Does my reply feel like some kind of personal attack? It surprises me, since you seem to be the guy who cares about opinions. Consider ranknfile's and my comment as an opinion aswell.

    And yes, I do feel 90%/question 14 may be unreasonable. For a poll doesn't tell the entire story and back ground. It simply offers statistics which can be interpreted in very bad ways. Such as; 'CA should add every cool feature from Attila into Rome II. ..I will even pay for it..!'

    If you don't share that opinion, fine. But calling me a zealous defender of CA and my comment consistent hypocrisy goes to show how biased you and your poll are. You're only adding further evidence I have against question 14.

    Apologies if my response came off as a bit heated, Grudge - for reasons I've given to ranknfile in the post above.

    Please note, I am not defending a negative opinion of the game. I am defending people's right to express these opinions in a survey and these opinions should be noted equally whether belonging to a minority or a majority, or posted by a long time fan or newcomer to the series.

    Also, I am not calling you personally "consistently a hypocrit", just there have been a lot of these kind of comments from posters who are frequently in their thousands of posts and big defenders of the game (once again, not necessarily aimed at you).

    I think there's been a fair amount of misunderstanding too. My frustration stemmed from the fact that an opinion poll is by its very definition going to result in people answering in a way that is subjective or, in other terms, biased. So in a sense, most questions in this survey - not just question 14 - would also have to be given the chop.

    But it is, to some extent, the purpose of these surveys to ask people how they feel on the things which matter most to them. It is also entirely up to CA whether or not they choose to act on this. In an ideal world, the results of this kind of thing will help steer the franchise in a direction where more people enjoy playing the game, will therefore buy more content and give more money to CA to make better games, encouraging yet more people to buy their games etc
  • lordmaximus77lordmaximus77 Technical Moderator Leeuwarden, NLPosts: 3,337Registered Users, Moderators, Tech Moderators, Knights
    edited December 2014
    One of the conditions for the mini survey was not to start a discussion.

    I moved these posts. Don't start a discussion in the survey thread again.
    Any fool can make things bigger and more complex. It takes a touch of genius – and a lot of courage – to move in the opposite direction. — Albert Einstein

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