CA, please release map editing tools.

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

Dear CA,

I'd like to plead for the release of map editing tools. I know it has been discussed quite often but now that you have probably announced Rome 2's last campaign pack I think it is time to finally release them. I'm talking about campaign map editing. Battle map editing would be great, too, but if we can only have one I prefer the former.

I doubt any player opposes this but I guess there are second thoughts about this at CA so I want to discuss a few points that might hold the responsible guys back.

Will campaign map editing tools hurt the sales figures of DLCs like CiG, HatG and WoS?

This is of course an important question. Let's not delude ourselves, money talks. But in my opinion campaign map tools wouldn't only not harm the sales figures, they would improve them.

If they would release those tools today, it would still take a lot of time till any high quality mods came out which could compete with DLC campaigns. My guess would be at least one year or two. DLCs are already quite cheap, by that time they will be cheaper and probably available in a gold edition. So most people would be buying them anyway and if they didn't CA wouldn't miss out on much.

Why would they even improve the sales figures?

Well, if there are great mods for a game, the probability that someone buys it is greater. I for example bought the addon for Medieval 2 for the sole purpose of playing Third Age. Such mods add real value to the product.

What happens if you release the tools too late?

The interest will be very low and there won't be many/any overhaul mods for this game. Just look at Shogun 2.

If technically possible people might use the tools for TW: Attila which might hurt the sales figures of future DLCs.

That might be true but I'm sure the guys at CA can easily lock campaign map editing for Attila if and as long they are working on their own DLCs.

Creating tools for the modding community will take some amount of work.

Yes, that's true but a lively modding community is the best that could happen to a game. So it's worth it.

The community will be thankful.

Even if this doesn't directly transfer into money (it does long term) pleasing your customers should still be on your agenda. And in my opinion the benefits for releasing campaign map tools far outweigh the costs.

That's what I have to say concerning this topic. I may add some points if I or the community comes up with more.

Best regards
your community

PS: Just to show how epic such mods can be here is what the map in Third Age looked like:

http://www.totalwar.cz/sites/default/files/third_age_map.jpg

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/michel_hermans/TATW31map-1.png

CountOfUSA · December 2014

I want map editing tools and tools for the hardcoded parts like the UI and politics. I second this.

Herr Bree · December 2014

I second it as well. I would love to be able to combine all the DLC campaign maps to make a larger truly "grand" grand campaign map.

Mordreth · December 2014

I know 2-3 people that if i told them this was out, and a LOTR mod was complete, would buy it today.

But a lotr mod needs a map.

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

Mordreth wrote: »

I know 2-3 people that if i told them this was out, and a LOTR mod was complete, would buy it today.

But a lotr mod needs a map.

Exactly.

Herr Bree · December 2014

Mordreth wrote: »

I know 2-3 people that if i told them this was out, and a LOTR mod was complete, would buy it today.

But a lotr mod needs a map.

****, id re buy full price if it ment a lotr mod lol.

JSL · December 2014

I second this as well.

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

Just to show how epic such mods can be here is what the map in Third Age looked like:

http://www.totalwar.cz/sites/default/files/third_age_map.jpg

http://i1180.photobucket.com/albums/x413/michel_hermans/TATW31map-1.png

DuckyDuck[NL] · December 2014

Herr Bree wrote: »

I second it as well. I would love to be able to combine all the DLC campaign maps to make a larger truly "grand" grand campaign map.

That wont be possible with there 32bit engine.

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

DuckyDuck[NL] wrote: »

That wont be possible with there 32bit engine.

Says who?

crazychameleon · December 2014

CA must read this thread as it makes sense at would open up a wide range of possibilities.

Vastator · December 2014

Considering they decided to make attila as a "completely new game" and that its release is imminent, I really doubt about it. Hoping to be wrong.

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

Vastator wrote: »

Considering they decided to make attila as a "completely new game" and that its release is imminent, I really doubt about it. Hoping to be wrong.

What does Attila have to do with it?

Vastator · December 2014

HannibalBarkas wrote: »

What does Attila have to do with it?

I think they wouldnt like modding focus sticking too much (something that'll happen with more modding tools) on a (soon to be) commercial dead game such as Rome2.
IMHO of course.

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

Vastator wrote: »

I think they wouldnt like modding focus sticking too much (something that'll happen with more modding tools) on a (soon to be) commercial dead game such as Rome2.
IMHO of course.

When the first high quality mods are finished Attila will already be old and probably the next game already released.

Dangerman1337 · December 2014

I would LOVE to see such tools, mostly because for the possibility of something like Caesar in Gaul or Wrath of Sparta extended to cover the entire GC area.

The Black Douglas · December 2014

Would love to see some campaign map mods. Being able to mod resources, create regions and tweak province ccapital would be good!

Herr Bree · December 2014

Dangerman1337 wrote: »

I would LOVE to see such tools, mostly because for the possibility of something like Caesar in Gaul or Wrath of Sparta extended to cover the entire GC area.

Exactly this.

Mr_J · December 2014

Second this! Just look at l4d2. It has countless amout of any kind of addons. It's hard to find man who doesn't use an addon. When vanilla stuff gets boring people use mods and still buy game. What if there'll be great mods like lotr or westeros or smth else? People will buy a game to play that mod. It's easy. Medieval 2 hasn't many DLC(only Kingdoms) and look there. People bought it to play mods 'coz mods could not work without this DLC(it was containing some extra stuff). From all new DLCs coming we see CA has the tool to work on campaign map. We don't ask this tool we ask for a 'lite' or 'beta' or 'optimized' or 'shorten' or 'limited' version of it. Or smth new based on that tool's technology. CMON CA..

GrudgeNL · December 2014

I highly doubt these points can really be used in an argument for campaign map mod tools.

Six months after FotS and TEd were released, CA released the campaign map max file for Shogun II. Only a handful of modders ever touched that campaign map file for Shogun II. Let alone release a mod for it. Currently, I only know of 3 that extensively made use of it. A thankful community? Improved sales? Lively modding community?

Is six months too late? No. Most major mods for the older TW games were released atleast a year after the original game's release. Most of these mods also only reached potential after another year of further modding.

Does that mean I am against campaign map files for modders? No. I would love these mod tools. However, it simply means that if modders rally together (like they did shortly after Shogun II's release) and demand certain mod tools, they should start to actually use the tools this time.

All this 'We should have these Tools (but we'll never use them anyway because they're too complicated)' doesn't give a very positive sign to developers. How many modders know how to and can import models/animations into Rome II? I can assure you; barely anyone.

----

If we modders want more tools, we should show them with the tools we have available now. That way you can show them you can only mod to a certain extend. That your mod cannot reach its full potential. You have your models, animations, soundtrack, textures, lighting, UI textures, Unit Cards. But no custom campaign map and battle map.

Vastator · December 2014

GrudgeNL wrote: »

I highly doubt these points can really be used in an argument for campaign map mod tools.

Six months after FotS and TEd were released, CA released the campaign map max file for Shogun II. Only a handful of modders ever touched that campaign map file for Shogun II. Let alone release a mod for it. Currently, I only know of 3 that extensively made use of it. A thankful community? Improved sales? Lively modding community?

Is six months too late? No. Most major mods for the older TW games were released atleast a year after the original game's release. Most of these mods also only reached potential after another year of further modding.

Does that mean I am against campaign map files for modders? No. I would love these mod tools. However, it simply means that if modders rally together (like they did shortly after Shogun II's release) and demand certain mod tools, they should start to actually use the tools this time.

All this 'We should have these Tools (but we'll never use them anyway because they're too complicated)' doesn't give a very positive sign to developers. How many modders know how to import models and animations into Rome II? I can assure you; barely anyone.

There are very few campaign map mods for shogun 2 because few people have the knowledge/will/time to make them like you said, but also mainly because shogun 2 modding community was/is the smallest one since Rome I and very few mods were released in general. Plus vanilla was very welcomed and not in desperate need of mods, and there wasn't many option to expand the map (except Korea) and you can't focus on a Japanese region/time setting, since it's just focused too much.
If they'll release them for Rome II the situation would be totally different. Modding community is far more numerous, and you would have many options for expanding/focusing the map.

GrudgeNL · December 2014

Vastator wrote: »

and there wasn't many option to expand the map (except Korea) and you can't focus on a Japanese region/time setting, since it's just focused too much.

You can ditch the entire shogun 2 main map and create whatever landmass you want. Use FotS its line infantry template, add custom models, some new animations, add new music; Whoo! Empire V2.0.

Vastator wrote: »

Modding community is far more numerous, and you would have many options for expanding/focusing the map.

If most modders cannot import a simple 3D model into Rome II, then most cannot even hope to modify the campaign map file. While this modding community's size does help, it is still a modding community that mostly sticks to new textures and db tables.

The community can prove me wrong though. The Shogun II mod tools are still there. Create some awesome campaign maps. And show how much you want that for Rome II and Attila. As long barely anyone attempts such a thing, the statement in the OP is not as strong as it could be.

steamapps\common\total war shogun 2\modding.zip\moddingfiles\raw_data\EmpireDesignData\campaign_maps

Vastator · December 2014

GrudgeNL wrote: »

You can ditch the entire shogun 2 main map and create whatever landmass you want. Use FotS its line infantry template, add custom models, some new animations, add new music; Whoop Empire V2.0.

Yes, you could. But you have to be very bold to do it. Because creating animations/models/city maps and so on (there are tons of things, especially on campaign map, you have to make to create a total conversion) is something that needs a lot of time (and you also have to face the unknown, because no one has gone so far, and be ready to encounter technical problems that could not be easily overcome)
And without other that helps you (Shogun II modding "manpower" was/is very limited) you don't even try. Why wasting time doing this knowing the mod will never be completed?

With Rome II things would be way easier, since you could reuse tons of assets, without changing too much. You could "easily" make a "Rise of Roma" campaign, or other specialized campaign like the one released as DLC by CA. The big of work would be creating the campaign map. In Shogun II the big of work is also creating the other stuff (and with very few people this is impossible).

GrudgeNL wrote: »

If most modders cannot import a simple 3D model into Rome II, then most cannot even hope to modify the campaign map file. While this modding community's size does help, it is still a modding community that mostly sticks to new textures and db tables.

The community can prove me wrong though. The Shogun II mod tools are still there. Create some awesome campaign maps. And show how much you want that for Rome II and Attila. As long barely anyone attempts such a thing, the statement in the OP is not as strong as it could be.

steamapps\common\total war shogun 2\modding.zip\moddingfiles\raw_data\EmpireDesignData\campaign_maps

Also in Shogun II modders were sticking to textures/db tables mods before modding tools were released. Then the tools were released and someone with CA help (at the beginning only one to be honest) tried to study them and release the knowledge to others. Complex mods were never released for the reasons i wrote above and because Shogun 2 modders were really few.
How do you know there wouldn't be many modders doing this stuff for Rome II? Numbers of "specialized" manpower are linearly related to the total number of modders, so they'll be surely more. They would be even more because someone, even if it's not an expert, knowing there are tons of assets that could be reused for his mod, could dedicate some time to learn the use of the tools such as 3ds max with more hope than the case where these assets weren't available.
Talking about Shogun 2, why should one attempt to make an awesome campaign map, for example, of medieval Europe knowing a priori that it would never be filled with medieval cities and armies? To prove some point? Honestly I would dedicate my time doing a campaign map knowing the mod had at least a chance to be released in a somewhat state of completion.

Sebidee · December 2014

Seeing as all campaign packs (probably) will be released by the time map tools come I doubt it would hurt sales. Map tools please! Then I might finally be able to make the fallout mod that's been rumbling around in my head for the last few weeks

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

6 months after FotS means 2 years after Shogun 2. That's way too late for a game that doesn't appeal to so many people anyway. If they release the tools for Rome 2 in one year from now nobody will give a **** either.

There are thousands of mods for Rome 2 includings many which introduce new models. There are already two teams working on LotR mods. But without mapping tools their effort will be for nothing.

Also as Attilla isn't much more than an overhaul it is very likely that modders will be able to transfer their mods to the new game with reasonable effort.

Edit:

Here is one of the LotR mods in developement: http://www.twcenter.net/forums/forumdisplay.php?2042-Total-War-Middle-Earth-%28TW-ME%29. They have quite some work done including the whole Rohan unit roster, some of Isengard's, a lot of the UI and 2D art an much more (Note: They are not going for the movie version of LotR but for their own interpretation of the books.)

GrudgeNL · December 2014

includings many which introduce new models.

I don't even want to discuss this. All I'll say is that I also make models for Rome II mods. And I have been getting a lot of requests in the past 4 months. There are simply too few 3D artists in this community.

And the LotR mods shouldn't be any motivation. Obvious legal issues.

My point still stands; I would love these tools. But only when more/the people who will actually use them are supporting this thread.

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

GrudgeNL wrote: »

I don't even want to discuss this. All I'll say is that I also make models for Rome II mods. And I have been getting a lot of requests in the past 4 months. There are simply too few 3D artists in this community.

And the LotR mods shouldn't be any motivation. Obvious legal issues.

My point still stands; I would love these tools. But only when more/the people who will actually use them are supporting this thread.

What is even your counter argument? You don't know how many people would use it and I don't. But what would be the downside to releasing such mods? None to the players, that's sure. And probably none for CA if they are going to release the tools anyway (only way too late). What I know is that it will raise not much interest one year from now.

Also I wouldn't worry about the legal issues of that mod. There are tons of LotR mods for different games. The only ones getting problems are the ones who use similiar names like the ones of offiicial games. The two mods I mentioned are both changing their names to prevent that.

GrudgeNL · December 2014

HannibalBarkas wrote: »

What is even your counter argument?

Already explained in all of my posts. You ignoring them and/or not willing to understand them is something else. If you don't agree with me, fine. I am not going to repeat myself again and again. Because that way it'll derail the thread as it always does. I've given my view on this. Feel free to read my previous replies.

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

I read them. No need to act offended. There was no valid counter argument I could find.

GrudgeNL · December 2014

HannibalBarkas wrote: »

I read them. No need to act offended. There was no valid counter argument I could find.

Accepting something as valid is highly subjective. Counter arguments are deffinitely there. If you feel I was offended, not my intention at all. I just completely disagree with the way this community askes for new mod tools.

HannibalBarkas · December 2014

GrudgeNL wrote: »

Accepting something as valid is highly subjective. Counter arguments are deffinitely there. If you feel I was offended, not my intention at all. I just completely disagree with the way this community askes for new mod tools.

The only thing you said was that there were no campaign maps made for Shogun 2 which shows that not enough modders are able and willing to use such tools ignoring that the tools were released 2 years after Shogun 2. Hasn't the community already shown that it is willing to put much effort into mods with various mods for Rome 1 and Medieval 2? For Shogun 2 there were no spectacular campaign maps but there were very nice battle maps.

Does someone have to waste his time now to create a campaign map in Shogun 2 just to prove to you that he means business? It doesn't work that way. A community shouldn't have to beg for modding tools. A smart developer should release them himself. With that kind of thinking TW will never have great overhaul mods again.

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